The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[Meat Hunter]

Thats the kind of thing that I haven't seemed to be able to make some of you understand... I have never had a problem finding and killing big bucks.. my concern for any AR is strictly from a management point of view...specifically buck age structure and it's benefit to herd management for future hunters...

Some folks hunt the suburbs, next to a wildlife refuge, on 1000+ private acres or deep in the Adirondacks and they may have better luck on older and there for bigger bucks. What WMU do you hunt? But this not the experience of the majority of hunters or what is taking place on a landscape scale in NY.

In NY the age structure is approximate 60% yearling bucks 30% 2.5 year olds and 10% 3.5 year olds. Less than 1% of bucks survive to 4.5 years old. So statically no bucks over 3.5 exist, it is a very very small number.

So lets try this from the other side why is it good stewardship, good management, good biology or supportive of a natural herd to remove the majority of bucks from the population at 1.5 years only and have such a young age structure in the buck segment of the population?

[Meat Hunter]

I know that down to camp a few different Pa guys bought land around the area. The ones I met I had to ask what was the sudden urge for Pa guys to make a move to hunt NY. Response from all of them was the same AR ruined the hunting in PA. Guess what, the last couple years they have not returned that I noticed. And one place is up for sale if that means anything.

What most hunters do not seem to know is the PA instituted a reduce the deer herd program. Ask any PA or NY Biologist. This was done by harvesting a ton of does. They have taken 2.5 to 3 does for every buck for years. This has reduced the deer harvest. This is not what we are talking about for NY!

The antler restrictions were to make better buck hunting as a benefit to hunters to try and make up for a lot less deer.

Many hunters really like the Buck Hunting in PA. 65% support the AR program. One note is the PA is protecting 50% of Yearlings which is not enough. The NY AR area is protecting 85%. That is way better.

And once again in NY ARs are not a deer reduction program. They are strictly to increase the age structure of the buck population.

[nyantler]

There is a reason that younger bucks are the highest %... and very few 4.5 or older in NY... think about it... you can have bucks that are older if you eliminate the potential to get older by killing them at a young age... for example... if there was a way to be sure of an older bucks age and the law was that you couldn't kill a buck younger than 5.5... in just a couple you'dhave a huge percentage of bucks in the 3.5 and 4.5 year old age class... on the flip side... if you could only take yearling bucks and no older bucks.... it wouldn't take long before yearling would make up 80-90% of all the bucks... because there would be few bucks left to make it to the older age classes... just simple math. The explosion of bucks that my first model shows is the reason why doe population control is also very important in any solid management program... a balanced herd should be the goal... both in ratio and in age class... the benefiit to the hunter is the byproduct of that goal.. healthier deer, bigger animals, balaced herds, better habitats... etc. The only thing standing in the way... is the selfish attitude of hunters.

[gunner1]

I was telling my dad about this topic last night and he asked a good question. Does the AR only apply to gun hunters or does it include bowhunters as well? I'm pretty sure that a bow license is the same all over the state and states one deer of either sex on it. As a non-bowhunter I'm not sure of the answer but if it doesn't include bowhunters (and I bet it doesn't) then it's just another slap in the face. I don't feel NYS DEC has ANY clue on how to properly manage it's deer herd. How can they say no doe permits in this area or 2000 in this area when they NEVER go out and visually check the herd?? I also think that they need to do away with nuisance permits. Hundreds if not thousands of deer are killed every year in the name of protecting crops yet no REGULAR doe permits are given out in those same areas! Makes NO sense to me. I live in Greene County where zero permits were given out last year yet all I see are does and fawns all over the place! I had a great 10 pointer behind the house on camera behind the house last year buy never saw him during the gun season. Obviously there is no one fix for this in NY, but I think alot more research needs to be done before we start added more AR's. Maybe let the hunters who hunt in that WMU vote yea or nea...

[growalot]

Here we go again....ppl with different opinions are selfish

Lets see.....2 large herds of deer A and B

A is a herd that is made up of many breeding doe...and say a third of # in buck

B is a herd of lots breeding doe with 3/4 of # in buck...

both herds are in areas where ppl are planting food plots...most of state now....good natural foods....water and cover

The rut gets under way....pre...breeding..post...who's going into an unexpected long tough winter healthy ?

A herd that had does being bred with out to much hassle because there where plenty of girls around...bucks not having to go through the constant chasing and battling one another over the one doe that happens to be ready...or...

B the herd that has fewer doe so not as many going in to heat at the same Time and many buck chasing and fighting over the one doe....depleting their reserves...

Now take that scenario and put it where there is no ag and are not as many plots or even natural food sources

I've seen both types of herd structures in our own area over the years...The DEC hands out doe tags like candy here...some years the herd gets hammered...others not...some years fawns don't stand a chance in the deep snows...leaving 3 years of lots of buck and few doe....then in time it reverses...3 to four year cycles...like any thing in nature....

Herd B never fairs as well..... what I end up seeing after a herd B situation is bucks that look like bags of bone....injured...and winter sculls...the doe are thin and panting from being chased by several buck at once...then less fawn in the spring...not twins and triplets...which by the way twins I always see 1:1 ratio...singles are usually doe fawns

Herd A the following year we have plenty of fawn.... doe are big and many more buck to be seen...no not all are monster buck but big healthy yearling 6-8's...not spikes and 4's

Granted I'm no EXPERT...just someone that is in the woods daily all year ...in the woods every day during the hunting seasons...watching what unfolds yearly for way over 35 years...though the first 15..well times now are way different thenand mother nature still did her own checks and balances

[Doewhacker]

Read the DEC's thoughts on all of this here.. http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/deerregapc2012.pdf

Here are some tidbits for all of the AR/Biologist arm chair quarter backs.

"Many comments, from supporters and opponents, continued to reflect beliefs about potential outcomes of mandatory ARs that cannot be substantiated (e.g., impact on hunting safety) or were inconsistent with existing data from DEC‟s pilot antler restriction program (e.g., impact on hunting participation or purported increases in antlerless harvest). DEC„s previous responses to those comments can be found at the links cited above and apply here as well. Certainly, mandatory ARs will substantially reduce the harvest of yearling (1.5 year old) bucks, since the "3-points on a side" rule would make it illegal to harvest most yearling deer in southeastern New York. After a few years, and if the total deer population grows, hunters may take similar numbers of bucks with mandatory ARs as they did without. However, mandatory ARs are not biologically necessary to maintain a healthy deer population in New York. Furthermore, the yearling portion of total buck take in New York has been dropping statewide, without mandatory ARs, from greater than 70% in the early 1990s to about 55% in 2011 "

Evidence from the pilot AR program revealed no significant changes in hunter participation for the majority of hunters, though overall participation by non-local hunters appeared to decline because of mandatory ARs. As such, no economic benefit to local communities should be expected in areas where mandatory ARs are enacted.

We agree that unless overall populations are reduced, mandatory ARs will result in larger buck populations, potentially exacerbating concerns of agricultural or ecological impact in some areas. Though DEC intends to manage overall deer populations consistent with desires of local stakeholder task forces, mandatory ARs may invalidate the primary index (bucks killed per square mile) used to monitor deer population trends and will reduce DEC‟s ability to identify when a population is at objective levels

As for the future, DEC has no plans to expand mandatory ARs outside of these areas, but we have begun developing a more systematic process and criteria for determining when and where mandatory ARs or other strategies for reducing harvest of yearling bucks may be warranted. The ongoing debate about mandatory ARs has caused many hunters to view that as the only option for reducing harvest of yearling bucks. However, there are other approaches that may deal more effectively with diverse and often competing hunter values. Yearling buck harvest strategies involve significant tradeoffs among hunters who want to increase their chances of taking (or seeing) older bucks, hunters who want the freedom to take a buck of any size, other stakeholders concerned about overall deer populations, and DEC managers who must balance these competing interests and who have concerns about impacts on their ability to reliably monitor and manage deer populations without excessive cost or complexity. Going forward, we need to consider other approaches (e.g., mandatory ARs for part of the season, a one-buck per hunter limit, or other alternatives) that may offer more acceptable outcomes for New York deer hunters and stakeholders. "

There is a glimmer of hope that the DEC may someday return to making decisions based on facts and science instead of making them as a result of political, monetary and group pressure.

And to all of those who tout that survey conducted by Cornell, do tell how many hunters were surveyed..I believe it was around 500 response's they had wasn't it?

And lastly to all of those who say simply go shoot a doe, well gee I would love to but there are zero permits for my area. I hope all of you boys in western NY are ready for steve863 and I, we are pulling up stakes and heading your way.

[steve863]

"Evidence from the pilot AR program revealed no significant changes in hunter participation for the majority of hunters, though overall participation by non-local hunters appeared to decline because of mandatory ARs."

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the majority of hunters in the Catskill region are non-locals, meaning that total hunter participation is no doubt DOWN because of AR's. I am sure this makes the AR supporters mighty happy, since their mentality has always been to hopefully have fewer hunters around to shoot "their" bucks that would grow bigger if no one else was around or allowed to shoot them. If you think I'm kidding just reread a few posts on this thread.

We have been trying to only shoot bucks with 8 points or better on the farm that i hunt for a few years now but it wasn't working b/c the farm right down the road boards hunters and shoots any legal buck they see. All bow season long we would pass up spikes-six point bucks and then come opening day they would be hanging down the road. Now they will be able to survive and make it though the brutal NY gun season.

John

well im in 8y so im not excited the whole frigen state should be AR unless your a kid!

these grown men who kill 1 1/2 old deer left and right are just plan pathetic!! nys has great potential to be on the map for big bucks you wont have big bucks like we should if these ignorant un skilled so called hunters keep killing spikes small 6 points 4 pts half racks ect.

O look a deer boom woo i killed a 4 point is embarassing if you ask me its like having a small dink or a ugly wife..........

[Meat Hunter]

I was telling my dad about this topic last night and he asked a good question. Does the AR only apply to gun hunters or does it include bowhunters as well? I'm pretty sure that a bow license is the same all over the state and states one deer of either sex on it. As a non-bowhunter I'm not sure of the answer but if it doesn't include bowhunters (and I bet it doesn't) then it's just another slap in the face. I don't feel NYS DEC has ANY clue on how to properly manage it's deer herd. How can they say no doe permits in this area or 2000 in this area when they NEVER go out and visually check the herd?? I also think that they need to do away with nuisance permits. Hundreds if not thousands of deer are killed every year in the name of protecting crops yet no REGULAR doe permits are given out in those same areas! Makes NO sense to me. I live in Greene County where zero permits were given out last year yet all I see are does and fawns all over the place! I had a great 10 pointer behind the house on camera behind the house last year buy never saw him during the gun season. Obviously there is no one fix for this in NY, but I think alot more research needs to be done before we start added more AR's. Maybe let the hunters who hunt in that WMU vote yea or nea...

All hunters all season are required to comply with the antler restrictions except youth 17 and under

[Meat Hunter]

"Evidence from the pilot AR program revealed no significant changes in hunter participation for the majority of hunters, though overall participation by non-local hunters appeared to decline because of mandatory ARs."

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the majority of hunters in the Catskill region are non-locals, meaning that total hunter participation is no doubt DOWN because of AR's. I am sure this makes the AR supporters mighty happy, since their mentality has always been to hopefully have fewer hunters around to shoot "their" bucks that would grow bigger if no one else was around or allowed to shoot them. If you think I'm kidding just reread a few posts on this thread.

First show me the causal link- you see the wiggle word- "appear" to decline?

Second the locals make up the majority of hunters- not out of the area hunters.

[steve863]

First show me the causal link- you see the wiggle word- "appear" to decline?

Second the locals make up the majority of hunters- not out of the area hunters.

I don't think it is news to anyone that hunter numbers have been declining everywhere in NYS, even without AR's. Adding them is not helping matters either as the DEC is clearly telling you here.

I have hunted in the Catskill/Hudson Valley region since the late 70's, and maybe I'm blind and stupid, but non-locals make up a mighty large portion of the hunters in this area. Many downstaters also own cabins/houses and property in this region. Maybe owning land for recreation makes them a local, but these along with those that come up just to hunt, add up to a very large number of people who hunt in this area.

[burmjohn]

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the majority of hunters in the Catskill region are non-locals, meaning that total hunter participation is no doubt DOWN because of AR's. I am sure this makes the AR supporters mighty happy, since their mentality has always been to hopefully have fewer hunters around to shoot "their" bucks that would grow bigger if no one else was around or allowed to shoot them. If you think I'm kidding just reread a few posts on this thread.

I find it to be quite the opposite. As I said in that other thread all of you guys keep generalizing AR supporters as greedy trophy hunters, that's just not the case, and not fair at all. I don't belong to a sportsman club, I don't belong to any organizations (yet), I haven't shot a buck in 8+ years... Had a few opportunities at some nice buck over the last 3 - 4 years but were out of range during the bow season. I have a group of at least 25 hunters that we all associate with in 3H and 3J, not one is opposed to the AR. In fact they support it 100%.. The ages in our group vary from 15 to 69, some are locals some come from the Island. If anything AR's have brought new excitement over the past few years because we are seeing more bucks, bigger, healthier, meatier bucks and starting to getting the age range of the herd back to where it should be. AR's are not for everywhere, the way its implemented isn't the "Best" way, but its a start.

[Meat Hunter]

. Maybe owning land for recreation makes them a local, but these along with those that come up just to hunt, add up to a very large number of people who hunt in this area.

It is like 10% in the previous AR Areas that our out of the area hunters. I could give you all the facts and figures and we can break it down to each county or wmu but it is really not critical to this chat.No way is even close to the "majority" Edited July 13, 2012 by Meat Hunter

[steve863]

It is like 10% in the previous AR Areas that our out of the area hunters. I could give you all the facts and figures and we can break it down to each county or wmu but it is really not critical to this chat.

Yeah, you guys have "all the facts and figures" alright! LOL That is why you boys sent thousands of photocopies of the same bloody letter to the DEC in support of AR's. I wrote to the DEC also in opposition, but at least I wrote the damned letter myself and actually got a personal reply from a NYS biologist respecting what I wrote and answered the questions I had. It seems like a few palms were greased along the way also by your side, since a few politicians put their names behind AR's. As I said before, a sad day for MANY downstate hunters. Actually ALL NYS hunters should take note here, because the same tactics could be played out in other areas.

[Fairgame]

I hear a baby crying (Steve863). Does anyone else?

[NYbuck50]

I would say it depends on where in CNY your talking about.... Seneca county 7J a 1.5 is likely a crotch or a 6 bc of the ample food.. But kick over to 7M in chenango county and their almost alll spikes.

No - because over 50% of the 1.5 are 6 pt or better here. It would have little to no effect.

There is nothing to show it would increase the number of real mature - 4.5 or older - bucks.

[steve863]

I hear a baby crying. Does anyone

I know you hear things in your head. You and theHunter must have been hit in the head one too many times by the rock you crawl out from under when people put you on the defensive on why AR's are nothing but a crock of horse$#!+.

[Doewhacker]

I find it to be quite the opposite. As I said in that other thread all of you guys keep generalizing AR supporters as greedy trophy hunters, that's just not the case, and not fair at all.

Yea genralizations like that are no good, and yet you make one in the same sentence. lol

.No way is even close to the "majority"

Yea just like saying the majority of hunters support AR's, uh huh all 500 that were polled.

I hear a baby crying (Steve863). Does anyone else?

Hey good luck shooting another 2.5 year old 5 point this year like you did last year. What an acomplishment after all of the smack you talked last year. I guess some can't walk the walk and talk the talk.

[burmjohn]

Yeah, you guys have "all the facts and figures" alright! LOL That is why you boys sent thousands of photocopies of the same bloody letter to the DEC in support of AR's. I wrote to the DEC also in opposition, but at least I wrote the damned letter myself and actually got a personal reply from a NYS biologist respecting what I wrote and answered the questions I had. It seems like a few palms were greased along the way also by your side, since a few politicians put their names behind AR's. As I said before, a sad day for MANY downstate hunters. Actually ALL NYS hunters should take note here, because the same tactics could be played out in other areas.

Yes, all of us AR supporters ran out and greased out politicians. I did write a letter for support, and got a response as well.. Some of the DEC biologists support it, some don't.

[burmjohn]

Yea genralizations like that are no good, and yet you make one in the same sentence. lol

Because that one is true unfortunately.

[First-light]

"And lastly to all of those who say simply go shoot a doe, well gee I would love to but there are zero permits for my area. I hope all of you boys in western NY are ready for steve863 and I, we are pulling up stakes and heading your way. "

You can always go back to Burt's place, sure he won't mind!

[mbucks27]

"Evidence from the pilot AR program revealed no significant changes in hunter participation for the majority of hunters, though overall participation by non-local hunters appeared to decline because of mandatory ARs."

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the majority of hunters in the Catskill region are non-locals, meaning that total hunter participation is no doubt DOWN because of AR's. I am sure this makes the AR supporters mighty happy, since their mentality has always been to hopefully have fewer hunters around to shoot "their" bucks that would grow bigger if no one else was around or allowed to shoot them. If you think I'm kidding just reread a few posts on this thread.

Its funny how when it comes to AR's people can just go on and on and on . I really don't see how there is a right or wrong on this subject. Everybody is going to have their own perspective on subject and that doesn't mean that a person who doesn't agree with how you feel is "Right or Wrong". In the new units AR units i know a lot of people that hunt both locals and non locals and just about everybody i talk to is in favor of antler restrictions in these units because of the very low buck sightings of bucks with at least 8 points or more. Also i really don't believe that its because of antler restrictions that we are losing hunters. Hunter numbers have been declining for a long time now because all most kids/teenagers would like to do is sit home and play video games/watch TV. Most kids figure why go out and sit in the cold and bad weather and go hunting when they can just play it on their Xbox in the comfort of their own home.

As for you Steve i don't claim that any of the bucks shot by the neighboring farms that i hunt are "My Bucks". Its just very frustrating when you hunt in an area like i hunt that is mostly big fields with small patches of woods/brushlots mixed in where come opening day of gun season the deer truly have no place to hide because of the amount of hunters in the woods and end up getting shot as 1.5 year old deer. I don't knock anybody for shooting a smaller deer and i believe that a hunter should shoot whatever makes them happy BUT in the units where AR's are now mandatory there has been a very strong push for it by hunters both local and non-local and the number or hunters that want it outweigh the number of hunters that don't want it or else the law wouldnt have been changed.

By the way for all the meat hunters out there in 2 years in these areas when you start seeing bigger deer there will also be a lot more meat on them as well .

John

[Fairgame]

Doewackers

Correct. At the end that deer was a five point but only cause he was all broken up. Look at the pic. 195 pounds live weight. I knew what he was. Shot at 18 yards. What smack talk you talking about. The fact that ARs give some bucks a chance to grow past 1.5 years.

[burmjohn]

Its funny how when it comes to AR's people can just go on and on and on . I really don't see how there is a right or wrong on this subject. Everybody is going to have their own perspective on subject and that doesn't mean that a person who doesn't agree with how you feel is "Right or Wrong". In the new units AR units i know a lot of people that hunt both locals and non locals and just about everybody i talk to is in favor of antler restrictions in these units because of the very low buck sightings of bucks with at least 8 points or more. Also i really don't believe that its because of antler restrictions that we are losing hunters. Hunter numbers have been declining for a long time now because all most kids/teenagers would like to do is sit home and play video games/watch TV. Most kids figure why go out and sit in the cold and bad weather and go hunting when they can just play it on their Xbox in the comfort of their own home.

As for you Steve i don't claim that any of the bucks shot by the neighboring farms that i hunt are "My Bucks". Its just very frustrating when you hunt in an area like i hunt that is mostly big fields with small patches of woods/brushlots mixed in where come opening day of gun season the deer truly have no place to hide because of the amount of hunters in the woods and end up getting shot as 1.5 year old deer. I don't knock anybody for shooting a smaller deer and i believe that a hunter should shoot whatever makes them happy BUT in the units where AR's are now mandatory there has been a very strong push for it by hunters both local and non-local and the number or hunters that want it outweigh the number of hunters that don't want it or else the law wouldnt have been changed.

By the way for all the meat hunters out there in 2 years in these areas when you start seeing bigger deer there will also be a lot more meat on them as well .

John

John - Same here... I have not found one person against AR's other then online.

[Meat Hunter]

Read the DEC's thoughts on all of this here.. http://www.dec.ny.go...rregapc2012.pdf

Here are some tidbits for all of the AR/Biologist arm chair quarter backs.

"Many comments, from supporters and opponents, continued to reflect beliefs about potential outcomes of mandatory ARs that cannot be substantiated (e.g., impact on hunting safety) or were inconsistent with existing data from DEC‟s pilot antler restriction program (e.g., impact on hunting participation or purported increases in antlerless harvest). DEC„s previous responses to those comments can be found at the links cited above and apply here as well. Certainly, mandatory ARs will substantially reduce the harvest of yearling (1.5 year old) bucks, since the "3-points on a side" rule would make it illegal to harvest most yearling deer in southeastern New York. After a few years, and if the total deer population grows, hunters may take similar numbers of bucks with mandatory ARs as they did without. However, mandatory ARs are not biologically necessary to maintain a healthy deer population in New York. Furthermore, the yearling portion of total buck take in New York has been dropping statewide, without mandatory ARs, from greater than 70% in the early 1990s to about 55% in 2011 "

Evidence from the pilot AR program revealed no significant changes in hunter participation for the majority of hunters, though overall participation by non-local hunters appeared to decline because of mandatory ARs. As such, no economic benefit to local communities should be expected in areas where mandatory ARs are enacted.

We agree that unless overall populations are reduced, mandatory ARs will result in larger buck populations, potentially exacerbating concerns of agricultural or ecological impact in some areas. Though DEC intends to manage overall deer populations consistent with desires of local stakeholder task forces, mandatory ARs may invalidate the primary index (bucks killed per square mile) used to monitor deer population trends and will reduce DEC‟s ability to identify when a population is at objective levels

As for the future, DEC has no plans to expand mandatory ARs outside of these areas, but we have begun developing a more systematic process and criteria for determining when and where mandatory ARs or other strategies for reducing harvest of yearling bucks may be warranted. The ongoing debate about mandatory ARs has caused many hunters to view that as the only option for reducing harvest of yearling bucks. However, there are other approaches that may deal more effectively with diverse and often competing hunter values. Yearling buck harvest strategies involve significant tradeoffs among hunters who want to increase their chances of taking (or seeing) older bucks, hunters who want the freedom to take a buck of any size, other stakeholders concerned about overall deer populations, and DEC managers who must balance these competing interests and who have concerns about impacts on their ability to reliably monitor and manage deer populations without excessive cost or complexity. Going forward, we need to consider other approaches (e.g., mandatory ARs for part of the season, a one-buck per hunter limit, or other alternatives) that may offer more acceptable outcomes for New York deer hunters and stakeholders. "

There is a glimmer of hope that the DEC may someday return to making decisions based on facts and science instead of making them as a result of political, monetary and group pressure.

And to all of those who tout that survey conducted by Cornell, do tell how many hunters were surveyed..I believe it was around 500 response's they had wasn't it?

And lastly to all of those who say simply go shoot a doe, well gee I would love to but there are zero permits for my area. I hope all of you boys in western NY are ready for steve863 and I, we are pulling up stakes and heading your way.

Yes to tidbits- everyone needs to know that you cherry picked the quotes.

Btw how many deer biologists work in Albany? Who wrote that?

Was it written by a bureaucratic, a politician a scientist? Hint look for the opinion, supposition and political policy in the document. Are there facts to back up the statements or are there words to color the statements one way or another. Wiggle words.

[Meat Hunter]

Yeah, you guys have "all the facts and figures" alright! LOL That is why you boys sent thousands of photocopies of the same bloody letter to the DEC in support of AR's. I wrote to the DEC also in opposition, but at least I wrote the damned letter myself and actually got a personal reply from a NYS biologist respecting what I wrote and answered the questions I had. It seems like a few palms were greased along the way also by your side, since a few politicians put their names behind AR's. As I said before, a sad day for MANY downstate hunters. Actually ALL NYS hunters should take note here, because the same tactics could be played out in other areas.

You sent a letter to the Deer plan or the regulation adoption that just ended? Who sent you a response from the DEC?