Who wants Yearling Buck Protection with ARs in their area?

[phade]

8H please. It's got all the other ingredients... just need a little age to let some more to maturity.

8H? 8H? 8FREAKINGH?

Unreal...8H is arguably the best non-urban WMU in the entire state. Yet, it needs AR?

I can see people whining about it out east, Albany way, etc. But seriously, 8H?

[phade]

Don't forget to say the units you want yearling buck protection with antler restrictions in.

Also the antler restriction standard would protect 80 to 100% of the yearling bucks from harvest by adult hunters.

Are you some kind of special? I'm sorry, but if you don't know the difference between a yearling buck and a 1.5 year old buck, you have no business in this discussion, let alone starting a thread about AR. Ignorant...ignorant...ignorant.

AR will have near zero impact on yearling bucks.

There is also no wide-scale regulation initiated AR in NY that protects 80-100% of 1.5 year old bucks. Maybe I missed that somewhere. You might get 66-75% on a good season in a poor area, but that's about peak.

Edited January 14, 2013 by phade

[phade]

What antler restriction does this?

What antler restriction stops the best of the 1.5's and nearly all the 2.5's from being highly pressured/sought after targets?

LOL. 1.5 year old.

[Five Seasons]

GAG ME!!!! Are you guys deer hunters, or are you looking for some sort of braggin rights from scoring a buck that has been artifically enhanced with "food plots" designed to grow antlers. AR's have been created to soothe the souls or modern day pussies who wish to pretend to be deer hunters. Said "hunters" wish only to brag on their kills or to adorn their walls with artificially-enhanced headgear on bucks they are able to shoot. Are there no traditional deer hunters out there? Let us hear from you!

wtf are you talking about? nobody said anything about food plots. This discussion has only to do with not shooting the little guys. If you're a meat hunter, there are so many doe in the woods you basically trip over them. I have never made any attempt to hide the fact that i'm a horn hunter. So long as I have some venison in the freezer, I am absolutely out to shoot the biggest, baddest buck in the woods and if you had a nice 10 standing next to a 1.5 year old doe, I know you're shooting that 10 so I don't want to hear it. I spend a lot of time and money to hopefully get a chance at a mounter. When you fish, do you hope to catch a bunch of little guys or do you hope for a few slobs?

Edited January 14, 2013 by Belo

[phade]

wtf are you talking about? nobody said anything about food plots. This discussion has only to do with not shooting the little guys. If you're a meat hunter, there are so many doe in the woods you basically trip over them. I have never made any attempt to hide the fact that i'm a horn hunter. So long as I have some venison in the freezer, I am absolutely out to shoot the biggest, baddest buck in the woods and if you had a nice 10 standing next to a 1.5 year old doe, I know you're shooting that 10 so I don't want to hear it. I spend a lot of time and money to hopefully get a chance at a mounter. When you fish, do you hope to catch a bunch of little guys or do you hope for a few slobs?

We agree on much and disagree on much, as well.

But, didn't you shoot a 1.5 or something this season? I forget, honestly, but I thought in a seperate thread we had going back and forth that you shot a 5 point or some 1.5 y/o. Agian, I may be wrong, but I could have sworn you didn't shoot horna nd the big/bad buck this season.

I'm nor tossing stones, either. I have shot my share of 1.5, and on many levels, it's quite OK in my book. We just cannot have both sides of the fence with AR.

[Paula]

wtf are you talking about? nobody said anything about food plots. This discussion has only to do with not shooting the little guys. If you're a meat hunter, there are so many doe in the woods you basically trip over them. I have never made any attempt to hide the fact that i'm a horn hunter. So long as I have some venison in the freezer, I am absolutely out to shoot the biggest, baddest buck in the woods and if you had a nice 10 standing next to a 1.5 year old doe, I know you're shooting that 10 so I don't want to hear it. I spend a lot of time and money to hopefully get a chance at a mounter. When you fish, do you hope to catch a bunch of little guys or do you hope for a few slobs?

Good to know someone is tripping over does

[Five Seasons]

ARs dont address poachers. Whats your point there?

I agree on the lack of education. What I mean about education is teaching hunters the benefits of letting the small ones walk for a year or two. Im not talking about letting them all grow into 5 and 6 year old deer either. The more people that you educate, the less restrictions and laws you will need to put into place. You wont turn everyone, but you dont really have to in order to improve things.

Besides, you know darn well a 3 point rule is worthless in half the state, so what are you gonna do? Different types of ARs for different parts of the state? Creating more complications and restrictions is a sure way to drive alot of guys out of the sport. Education is the key.

I know a lot of hunters. Most are "if it's brown, it's down" and even the most uneducated hunter already knows that if he and his neighbor pass on that buck he will be bigger next year. The problem in NY is that unless you own a 1k acres it's hard to practice QDM as your neighbor will just shoot the deer you pass on anyhow.

Shooting 1.5 and 2.5 6 points won't give you many 100+ inch bucks.

They don't mature when getting shot when young just because they have a certain number of points.

totally agree, but when you talk about bucks and "mature doe" there is no way to really size them up from the stand and know what's legal or not so you have to draw the line somewhere. The hope is too that the 2.5 year old is also smarter and less likely to be taken out of luck like some of the dumb bb's i've seen wandering through the woods.

Don't forget to say the units you want yearling buck protection with antler restrictions in.

Also the antler restriction standard would protect 80 to 100% of the yearling bucks from harvest by adult hunters.

8F and 7J

Edited January 14, 2013 by Belo

[Five Seasons]

We agree on much and disagree on much, as well.

But, didn't you shoot a 1.5 or something this season? I forget, honestly, but I thought in a seperate thread we had going back and forth that you shot a 5 point or some 1.5 y/o. Agian, I may be wrong, but I could have sworn you didn't shoot horna nd the big/bad buck this season.

I'm nor tossing stones, either. I have shot my share of 1.5, and on many levels, it's quite OK in my book. We just cannot have both sides of the fence with AR.

i know it seems hypocritical but i couldn't be picky this year with the birth of my son. He was still a nice 150lb. deer. And 15 seconds later out stepped a big 9, that a lot of hunters would have harvested illegally because you just dont see those deer everyday. Had there been ARs in place I wouldn't have taken him and I still kick myself a little because of what did end up happening. My issue is that the land i hunt is heavily pressured and chances are he wouldn't have made the season anyhow. This also was a bow kill, not that it matters. so like I said in my post above, to practice QDM, AR etc. you need everyone in the woods participating. My father is the ultimate QDM and every year a few people in the family bring in the bucks he passed on...What's the point at that point?

Edited January 14, 2013 by Belo

[phade]

i know it seems hypocritical but i couldn't be picky this year with the birth of my son. He was still a nice 150lb. deer. And 15 seconds later out stepped a big 9, that a lot of hunters would have harvested illegally because you just dont see those deer everyday. Had there been ARs in place I wouldn't have taken him and I still kick myself a little because of what did end up happening. My issue is that the land i hunt is heavily pressured and chances are he wouldn't have made the season anyhow. This also was a bow kill, not that it matters.

Believe me when I say I understand. There are things in one's life that often pops up that become a factor. I just don't see how such a regulation would improve anything.

You know as well as I do that 8F produces good quality bucks as is. Heck, I would argue this year, that 8F was THE top producing WMU for mature bucks in the entire state. It's not about the perceived benefit of making it better, it's about taking choice away from the hunter. Eliminating freedoms such as this are just a poor step. You'd have to put a 4 pt side in that WMU to get anywhere in protecting close to two-thirds, and honestly, that's ridiculous. Have we reached that point in hunting, that we need to have a 4 pt a side rule that may barely cover the majority of 1.5s? Seriously just think about it for a moment.

To me, it's yet another reason why you shouldn't set the base on fire. People that live and breathe hunting are completely different that the recreational hunter, the weekend warrior, the opening day-only, the time deprived, the "I'm going to go back and sit in the one stand I own and have set in the same spot for the last 20 yeaers", the ones who just join the sport as adults (not young/old excluded), the plain old, I want to build up my skill level, the "I don't have a DMP in my unit" crowd, and the list goes on.

The best thing to do is to leave it up to the string puller or the triggerman. Education is proving to have an effect - looking at the DEC's report shows that 1.5 harvest numbers have declined in their representation of wNY harvests, year after year for the past 5 or 6 when the big push started to take place. Restratint should be a personal thing, not a regulatory act.

[Five Seasons]

and i agree with you. I'm actually not that passionate about the subject. If there was a vote for it, I'd vote yes for ARs, but I don't lose sleep over the matter for the very reasons you just posted. I think the BB upsets me more than the 1.5 year old haha.

[phade]

i know it seems hypocritical but i couldn't be picky this year with the birth of my son. He was still a nice 150lb. deer. And 15 seconds later out stepped a big 9, that a lot of hunters would have harvested illegally because you just dont see those deer everyday. Had there been ARs in place I wouldn't have taken him and I still kick myself a little because of what did end up happening. My issue is that the land i hunt is heavily pressured and chances are he wouldn't have made the season anyhow. This also was a bow kill, not that it matters. so like I said in my post above, to practice QDM, AR etc. you need everyone in the woods participating. My father is the ultimate QDM and every year a few people in the family bring in the bucks he passed on...What's the point at that point?

You build a coalition. If you cannot, you manage otherwise, and understand that some of the bucks you pass will be shot.

I also think many QDM practitioners have a poor paradigm. I think the misconception is growing within QDM. And, it's not QDMA's fault. You and your father would like to kill mature bucks, no? So you practice QDM, and how often does he/you shoot 3.5+ bucks (using mature loosely here, really 4.5+)? Is it one every other year, one every three years?

Think about most of the QDM practitioners you know. Chances are, very few of them kill mature bucks every year or at least have a shot opportunity at one. I believe in QDM, no doubt, but the common practitioners make mistakes in their belief system. They tend to worry more about management than their hunting skill development. If that is the goal, then fine, but don't complain about passed bucks being shot.

Most of the mature buck hunters I know fall into two categories. 1. They own significant acreage, have more disposable income to devote, and are sound hunters first, and then managers second. The ground is almost always primely managed, but in comparison, it pales to their skill level as a hunter. 2. They own negligible land, maybe one small parcel, or they don't own land at all, and they shoot mature bucks (often on highly pressured ground), as they are great hunters.

This compares to the average QDMer, who wants to have that balanced herd, sees some good bucks on game cams, and then sets up on a food plot edge. The land looks great, the bucks are likely there, but there's also a reason why they don't shoot mature bucks. Instead of looking critically, they react to others shooting young bucks....they should instead be figuring out why THEY are not shooting mature bucks, which are most certainly there based upon the game cam pics and sign. Talk to them, they have great plots, spent a ton of money tilling the land, fertilizing, doing some TSI, geting a B:D ratio, surverying via cams, etc. But, you almost never hear of them saying, I went out in March and spent a weekend burning up a set of new boots, and I finally found that big guy's bed. I now know why I only saw fleeting glimpses of him in-season, and I'm going to get a set placed on a good wind entry and exit, in a spot he cannot see me. If I am quiet and smart enough, I'll kill him this season on my first-time-in. Let's be real, you simply don't hear that out of a QDMer for the most part. They say "I do all this work, pass young bucks, and people shoot them."

I can say I know many of those types of managers. No doubt, most are happy, but they could be happier. I cannot say the same about the hunters who target and kill mature bucks...they wouldn't trade it for a thing hunting-wise. They're not bothered with people passing young bucks. Instead, they're worried about killing the big ones they know about.

[phade]

and i agree with you. I'm actually not that passionate about the subject. If there was a vote for it, I'd vote yes for ARs, but I don't lose sleep over the matter for the very reasons you just posted. I think the BB upsets me more than the 1.5 year old haha.

Ha, talk abouta re-hash. Trust me man, don't worry about a BB or two getting grounded...in the real-world NY application, it ain't doing anything but hurting your neighbors.

You may get retention from shooting the mother of BB, but that's really about it.

Facing the music, the large majority of 1.5+ bucks on your ground come from your neighbors. Dispersal is nature's mitigator.

[Doewhacker]

Don't forget to say the units you want yearling buck protection with antler restrictions in.

.

NONE

[NYBuckHunter27]

8G....save the young ones!

[Five Seasons]

Phade,

In our family of about 7 hunters there's a nice mounter taken every year in 7j. Between my father and I in 8F it's probably 1 every 3 to 4 years. As far as skill, I have a lot to learn, especially in archery. I think that one particular point is the one reason why I dont jump all in on AR. As most would agree that any bow kill is a good one and with everyone you take your experience and knowledge increases. I guess it comes off as selfish when we talk about neighbors not shooting small deer as they legally have a right to. In my family we've made the big buck top 10 a few years. We're good hunters and I wholeheartedly agree that skill plays a tremendous part in taking mature bucks. But they still have to go by you.

I will add we don't have a single food plot in any of our hunting areas.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Belo

[JFB]

Why would some sort of restraint not be logical in area's that have good deer potential already? It's all relative but let's raise the bar. If I hunt an area that has exceptional potential which has proven genetics and nutrition, why not make our objective to be more than getting a deer to a thin 6pt or similar? The culture in places like Ohio or Kansas is much different than ours and the majority of hunters voluntarily pass on non mature deer because they know their potential is greater and they can shoot a mature animal. The area I hunt is really not much different with respect to it's potential... except for the guys in NY who simply can't resist the easy target. If we have some better than average area's in NY, it's my opinion guys should raise their own bar and let these deer get to 2.5 and 3.5 years old. Many of the guys I am friends with focus on age of deer, rather than points. But seeing that so many of the hunters in NY have a hard enough time even counting past three or four, I would be hard pressed to expect them to know the difference between a 1.5 and 3.5 year old buck. That is why traditional AR's would at least be better than nothing and it might just force the slob hunter to look closely before unloading.

[phade]

Why would some sort of restraint not be logical in area's that have good deer potential already? It's all relative but let's raise the bar. If I hunt an area that has exceptional potential which has proven genetics and nutrition, why not make our objective to be more than getting a deer to a thin 6pt or similar? The culture in places like Ohio or Kansas is much different than ours and the majority of hunters voluntarily pass on non mature deer because they know their potential is greater and they can shoot a mature animal. The area I hunt is really not much different with respect to it's potential... except for the guys in NY who simply can't resist the easy target. If we have some better than average area's in NY, it's my opinion guys should raise their own bar and let these deer get to 2.5 and 3.5 years old. Many of the guys I am friends with focus on age of deer, rather than points. But seeing that so many of the hunters in NY have a hard enough time even counting past three or four, I would be hard pressed to expect them to know the difference between a 1.5 and 3.5 year old buck. That is why traditional AR's would at least be better than nothing and it might just force the slob hunter to look closely before unloading.

I hunt the same unit as you. I see plenty of mix of mature buck hunters and recreational hunters. It is not a "potential" area...it's a defined, well-documented producer of big bucks, some of the likes of the best in the state. I hunt Ohio and NY. Every year. You think Ohio has different "caliber" of people than NY? Heh, good one.

You implying people who shoot small bucks are slobs, tells everything about you, in my opinion.

Edited January 14, 2013 by phade

[phade]

Phade,

In our family of about 7 hunters there's a nice mounter taken every year in 7j. Between my father and I in 8F it's probably 1 every 3 to 4 years. As far as skill, I have a lot to learn, especially in archery. I think that one particular point is the one reason why I dont jump all in on AR. As most would agree that any bow kill is a good one and with everyone you take your experience and knowledge increases. I guess it comes off as selfish when we talk about neighbors not shooting small deer as they legally have a right to. In my family we've made the big buck top 10 a few years. We're good hunters and I wholeheartedly agree that skill plays a tremendous part in taking mature bucks. But they still have to go by you.

I will add we don't have a single food plot in any of our hunting areas.

You'd need some serious acreage there for that. Either re-examine goals, or figure out a better solution other than AR. Ouch.

There's also no reason to settle for shooting a mature buck once every 3-4 years between the two of you. Absolutely none, unless it is self-imposed. It's not the people around you that are preventing it, it's you. You decide what you shoot, how you hunt, etc.

You seem to have the drive, so why not go and do it? It took me a few years to figure that one out too, and once I did...wa-la!

Edited January 14, 2013 by phade

[Paula]

That is why traditional AR's would at least be better than nothing and it might just force the slob hunter to look closely before unloading.

Anyone who pays for a license and tags can shoot what they choose, as long as its legal

Edited January 14, 2013 by paula

[Five Seasons]

You'd need some serious acreage there for that. Either re-examine goals, or figure out a better solution other than AR. Ouch.

There's also no reason to settle for shooting a mature buck once every 3-4 years between the two of you. Absolutely none, unless it is self-imposed. It's not the people around you that are preventing it, it's you. You decide what you shoot, how you hunt, etc.

You seem to have the drive, so why not go and do it? It took me a few years to figure that one out too, and once I did...wa-la!

I dont understand your point. We do have serious acreage in 7J. Still nice to increase your odds. In 8F we do not settle. It would take too long to explain the opportunities we have every year and some break our way, others dont. We've had bow strings snap, mounters not present shots, turkeys spook deer, monsters come in at dark etc. There is always an opportunity, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you dont.

60 acre spot last 4 years (30 hunted by us in 8F) all bow except 1 gun

wall mounter 8, real nice basket 9

small basket 8

2.5 year old nice 8

5 point, 7 point

neighbors and friend took real nice deer during some of those years as well, and those are just the ones we know of. Again, I'm not upset or overly passionate on the subject, but I have a neighbor that shoots everything. They bring friends and family and post 7+ people on a 15acre plot. Sounds like Baghdad on opening day and usually why we only bow hunt 8f. they shoot absolutely everything and have no issue hiding it. We wonder how much of it's legal as they butcher in their barn. It's almost sad. So the opportunities are always there for us, but it becomes disheartening to let the 1.5 year old go in hopes he grows up and then when he heads north and you hear 3 shots (for some reason they can never shoot once) your heart sinks... the area has had tremendous genetics and excellent food sources . Recently though it seems the genetics have declined. This year, how many 5 pointers do you know that weigh 150 pounds? A bunch of weird racks on the cams too. 4 years ago my mounter 8 only weighed 130. idk...

Anyone who pays for a license and tags can shoot what they choose, as long as its legal

totally agree, but that's why the discussion is focusing on changing what is legal.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Belo

[WNYBuckHunter]

The original poster didn't define 3pt's to a side or otherwise. The RESULTS I see living here and owning property are slob hunters who wear their camo in the bar the night prior to the hunt, stumble into the woods and unload on unidentified deer (other than being brown) just because they can. Forcing someone to think and look closely before unloading would be nice. I shoot my share of mature deer but I'd sure like to find less wounded yearlings. 8H is indeed very good due to exceptional habitat, food and genetics... just wish people there could show some restraint.

I see guys do the same thing. I too, live and hunt almost exclusively in 8H (different areas of it), and you are still going to do little to save people from wounding deer with ARs. My point is, things are very good in this area, and I just dont see more restrictions making much of a difference here.

Now, where I got the 3 point thing from is that is what has been put into effect for the vast majority of the AR areas in NY so far. It only stands to reason they would be the same here. For ARs to work out here, youd have to have a 4 point rule, but then you couldnt take a deer like this one that my buddy tagged this year...

He was taken in 8H.

[Grizz1219]

I would rather see it go to 1 buck per year over AR's.. but if AR's were to come in, I would welcome that over what is current... 4Y & 4Z

[phade]

I dont understand your point. We do have serious acreage in 7J. Still nice to increase your odds. In 8F we do not settle. It would take too long to explain the opportunities we have every year and some break our way, others dont. We've had bow strings snap, mounters not present shots, turkeys spook deer, monsters come in at dark etc. There is always an opportunity, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you dont.

60 acre spot last 4 years (30 hunted by us in 8F) all bow except 1 gun

wall mounter 8, real nice basket 9

small basket 8

2.5 year old nice 8

5 point, 7 point

neighbors and friend took real nice deer during some of those years as well, and those are just the ones we know of. Again, I'm not upset or overly passionate on the subject, but I have a neighbor that shoots everything. They bring friends and family and post 7+ people on a 15acre plot. Sounds like Baghdad on opening day and usually why we only bow hunt 8f. they shoot absolutely everything and have no issue hiding it. We wonder how much of it's legal as they butcher in their barn. It's almost sad. So the opportunities are always there for us, but it becomes disheartening to let the 1.5 year old go in hopes he grows up and then when he heads north and you hear 3 shots (for some reason they can never shoot once) your heart sinks... the area has had tremendous genetics and excellent food sources . Recently though it seems the genetics have declined. This year, how many 5 pointers do you know that weigh 150 pounds? A bunch of weird racks on the cams too. 4 years ago my mounter 8 only weighed 130. idk...

totally agree, but that's why the discussion is focusing on changing what is legal.

For seven hunters with aspirations of taking mature bucks, you are going to need lots and lots of good quality ground. If there are mismatched goals (ie not all 7 looking for wall hangers), then there's a bigger issue at hand than AR. If you have lots of ground, and all 7 are wall chasers, then why aren't you all shooting more of them? Get my drift? You have a lower hole in the bucket than a points-based AR mandate.

Don't read into too much the fact it only had 5 point or that it was poor genetics. Worrying about genetics is pointless. I've shot enough 1.5 y.o. bucks in my time to know that 150lbs is not all that uncommon in 8F, 8H, 8G, etc. There's so much science and at the same time, stuff we don't know that goes into antler development, body development, etc. Worry about what you can control, your trigger finger. Stop shooting 5 points (unless that makes you happy, which is A-OK) and baskets. Seems to be those baskets were one year (maybe two) off from being a potential wall hanger, no? Your neighbors didn't shoot them.

Edited January 14, 2013 by phade

[jjb4900]

The deer herd's in some areas need to be rebuilt before they even consider antler restriction's, unfortunately these are also some of the areas that already have them. The guy who hunt's an area where he's lucky to have 3 or 4 opportunities at any deer is now being told which buck he can shoot, tough pill to swallow..............for a guy in 8H to argue AR's with a guy in 4W is kind of a lopsided discussion, they probably have a deer sighting difference of 20-30 deer a season.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Don't forget to say the units you want yearling buck protection with antler restrictions in.

Also the antler restriction standard would protect 80 to 100% of the yearling bucks from harvest by adult hunters.

Wrong. 100% misinformation.