If they stopped all Buck hunting.

[Doc]

Do you have any idea of the hunters that do not buy a ny state licenses anymore because they want to see mature bucks?  Every year i talk to somebody or a group of hunters that hunt in ohio or maryland or Pa and do not even buy a NY state license anymore......

I can find those people too, and I can also find people that are sick of having restrictions, regulations and  more damned screwy laws and complexities added to their hunting, faster than the stinking regs can be printed. Everybody has more crazy fad-management ideas than you can even keep straight anymore. One buck limits, EAB, ARs, ..... I'm sure I have left some out. And now they are talking about things getting so complex that in addition to Regions, and WMUs with all their pages of verbal descriptions to keep track of, they will be needing yet another set of areas complete with yet another wall of verbiage to describe their boundaries. Where does all this nonsense stop so that people can just relax and hunt? How many people are starting to bail out because of all this craziness.

[jjb4900]

I can find those people too, and I can also find people that are sick of having restrictions, regulations and  more damned screwy laws and complexities added to their hunting, faster than the stinking regs can be printed. Everybody has more crazy fad-management ideas than you can even keep straight anymore. One buck limits, EAB, ARs, ..... I'm sure I have left some out. And now they are talking about things getting so complex that in addition to Regions, and WMUs with all their pages of verbal descriptions to keep track of, they will be needing yet another set of areas complete with yet another wall of verbiage to describe their boundaries. Where does all this nonsense stop so that people can just relax and hunt? How many people are starting to bail out because of all this craziness.

I think people underestimate the amount of casual hunters out there....I may be way off, but I bet they out number the serious, dedicated hunters by a pretty big margin. They're either going to continue to hunt because they don't care if they kill anything at all and just enjoy going or they're gonna throw in the towel because of all the nonsense.

[skully]

The casual hunters I know could care about all the stupid rule changes.  Most of them do not even know about it until they get there license.  There not on the forums and there really not into it one way or another.  The dedicated hunters are the ones that  get turned off.....

[Doc]

I think people underestimate the amount of casual hunters out there....I may be way off, but I bet they out number the serious, dedicated hunters by a pretty big margin. They're either going to continue to hunt because they don't care if they kill anything at all and just enjoy going or they're gonna throw in the towel because of all the nonsense.

It goes deeper than just an underestimate of casual hunter numbers (And I totally agree with you on that point), but there is an accompanying arrogant disdain for hunters that are not rabid fanatics as though they count for nothing. But every year as hunter number continue to dwindle, and we drive these guys out of the woods, we will be seeing how important their numbers were.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I think people underestimate the amount of casual hunters out there....I may be way off, but I bet they out number the serious, dedicated hunters by a pretty big margin. They're either going to continue to hunt because they don't care if they kill anything at all and just enjoy going or they're gonna throw in the towel because of all the nonsense.

Yes and those people will still be that kind of hunter even with new rules. Most hunt for 1 or 2 reasons. Meat or antlers. Those same hunters will still get their singing birds and love of the woods along with great deer hunting. Anybody that will hang up hunting because of a rule change is not very vested in te game and could jump ship on a whim for a number of reasons.  Most will just adjust to the change and hopfully watch the hunting improve. For some, it cant get worse.

[skully]

I have one guy who pouts because he has nowhere to hunt and always expects me to take him.  He will not go unless I take him.  If you really want to hunt you will find a place to hunt.  I have lost dozens of great spots over the years and I just keep replenishing new spots. To me that kind of casual hunter could beat it and I really do care if they ever hunt...........

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have one guy who pouts because he has nowhere to hunt and always expects me to take him.  He will not go unless I take him.  If you really want to hunt you will find a place to hunt.  I have lost dozens of great spots over the years and I just keep replenishing new spots. To me that kind of casual hunter could beat it and I really do care if they ever hunt...........

If you don't care, then why do you take him?

[SteveB]

Do you have any idea of the hunters that do not buy a ny state licenses anymore because they want to see mature bucks?   

 

So do you have an actually number?

[skully]

If you don't care, then why do you take him?

 

I dont care so I do not take him anymore.  

[phade]

I don't understand how anyone can believe that taking less bucks and shortening gun season is good deer management... it only serves the selfishness of NY hunters who want more deer and bigger bucks and does nothing to keep deer populations in check... especially as a statewide program... might be okay in isolated areas, but I'm not even sure about that. I don't know what is broken that actually needs to be fixed, other than we need to kill more deer.

 

We have one of the longest gun seasons in the country and I think the longest in the NE, yet we have arguably one of the worst deer managed states by many accounts.

 

We need to kill more deer in certain areas, we need to kill more does in certain areas, we need to grow the doe population in certain areas, and we are really crappy at matching the objectives for harvest within WMUs. That's just the scratch of the surface.

 

The attached pic is from 2012 - according to the rule of the game (ie the model/system we're in right now), the green zones in the top image are the ones where we're "on target." Not alot of green is there...this hasn't changed much at all in the more recent version. I see alot of red, which is where we are off objective by greater than 10%. This is a consistent year after year problem according to the DEC. That 10% each year becomes more important as each year passes. So, according to the DEC, there are plenty of areas where we need to shoot less bucks to meet the model goals. All that red isn't "isolated" to me. More like the OVERWHELMING majority of WMUs with a set objective. The objectives are set to manage to the model, run by the DEC, not the hunters.

 

So again, tell me how can anyone believe that taking less bucks and shortening the gun season isn't good management?

 

We can go round and round, but short gun season can be effective. Does it reduce days afield? Yes. That stinks. But, at the same time, these shorter seasons (or fluidly changed/timed seasons) get the job done, better than we are right now.

Edited January 23, 2015 by phade

[Culvercreek hunt club]

let me ask a question on the map. why would an AR unit not still have an objective?

[phade]

let me ask a question on the map. why would an AR unit not still have an objective?

 

No idea - I don't know if the permanence of the AR was set in '12 or not. Can't recall off top of my head.

 

The fact is though is that we're way off the mark in many is not half of the state according to the model. And what have we done to meet the objectives? Change the number of doe tags? That's it.

[growalot]

Talk to me when you can post 2013 _14 maps and #'s...a lot can change in 2 yrs...harvests...weather...and fawning to name a few...

[nyantler]

We have one of the longest gun seasons in the country and I think the longest in the NE, yet we have arguably one of the worst deer managed states by many accounts.

 

 

Depends on who you're asking as far as how well the herd is managed... I tend to agree with that statement... but the DEC's objective is population control... and a shorter season and less tags won't get that done... if we're talking about managing a herd properly you and I are in agreement. But the suggestion of a 1 buck rule and shorter gun season might be what some hunters want, but it has nothing to do with managing the herd properly and by no means the objective of most hunters that suggest it... it is simply about somehow getting more and bigger bucks to kill... nothing else has been offered to balance out a good management program that fits the need of all NY deer herds.

Edited January 23, 2015 by nyantler

[Five Seasons]

I can tell you one entire family that does not have life times...told me they are done hunting...tired of the BS...sick of not seeing doe tired of the crazed rack hunters....They have a descent chunk of land and it's going to make others hunting a lot tougher for sure...wonder how many times this will play out across the state?

In life people join and people leave hobbies all the time. I would question how truly passionate they were. Did they control scent and manage their habitat and numbers? Seems odd with that amount of land you'd wouldn't see doe.

Hunting for me is a solo hobby. With any land that size I don't see why I would quit because of other hunters being crazy about racks. How does that even affect them?

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[dbHunterNY]

Talk to me when you can post 2013 _14 maps and #'s...a lot can change in 2 yrs...harvests...weather...and fawning to name a few...

 

 

knowing what I know in only 2 years with DEC changing nothing significantly I can't see fawning, weather, and other things that since happened, change the color of that map significantly.  even most short term management goals take all of a 2 years and more to see results.

[Doc]

In life people join and people leave hobbies all the time. I would question how truly passionate they were. Did they control scent and manage their habitat and numbers? Seems odd with that amount of land you'd wouldn't see doe.

Hunting for me is a solo hobby. With any land that size I don't see why I would quit because of other hunters being crazy about racks. How does that even affect them?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That is the problem. No one is content just to hunt in their own fashion anymore. Everyone has a crusade where they want to control how you hunt and what you can take. Yes, I know that we have always operated under some constraints, but now the trophy quest has moved from controlling your own activities, techniques, and goals to increasingly forcing that mentality on others. It is almost getting militant. Huge arguments are now promoted and passionately and aggressively pursued to force one group's opinions and needs on the other. Yes, I can see how hunters might tire of their casual, relaxing pastime (hobby) being turned into constant warfare with all the pushing and shoving and belligerence. Who the hell needs that. It truly begins to look like one group trying to push the other group out of the sport so they can have things the way they want them, and I believe its working. Yeah, it all does get tiresome, and I can see where it would drive a lot of hunters away from hunting and into other hobbies.

[nyantler]

I'm not sure "good deer management" is what runs the ship anymore at the DEC. My suspicions are now going to the goals of the DEC are being driven by short term political directives. Polls, surveys, public meetings, all seem to be the current tools for "management". Of course it is necessary to keep hunters involved and engaged as long as these "popularity contests" don't start taking the place the good basic biological principles. I'm beginning to wonder. One year their head biologist is saying that there is no biological purpose or benefit to ARs, and the next year they are implementing several AR units, and talking about adding more as long as it shuts up those nagging pressure groups. Then too you have the CTFs determining deer density targets also. It just seems that more and more, the responsibilities of performing wildlife management is being turned into a series of opinion polls. I hope I'm wrong, but every year that seems to be the direction the DEC is taking.

I agree 100 %... I think that's why I have such a cynical view of all the ideas hunters have about what ought to be done in NY by the DEC. If I'm a proponent of anything it would be to shut up and hunt. At least until there is some sign of a true mission to manage the deer herd in NY properly based on all the different habitats and conditions across the state. It is hard to get behind a movement that simply doesn't exist right now. The DEC acts as if they are struggling with ideas just to keep the sport of hunting alive in NY... ideas and plan are all over the place... and it does appear that they are starting to cave when it comes to pressure groups. No rhyme, no reason... just doing... and always without a true plan backed by good management. 

[phade]

Talk to me when you can post 2013 _14 maps and #'s...a lot can change in 2 yrs...harvests...weather...and fawning to name a few...

the map hasnt changed much grow...it just hasnt. If you dont believe me, go find it. Most all units that are above the bto are always above the bto.

[nyantler]

 

So again, tell me how can anyone believe that taking less bucks and shortening the gun season isn't good management?

 

We can go round and round, but short gun season can be effective. Does it reduce days afield? Yes. That stinks. But, at the same time, these shorter seasons (or fluidly changed/timed seasons) get the job done, better than we are right now.

Sorry I meant, "how can anyone believe that is good management as a statewide plan... I'm with you on assessing what is needed in different areas of NY.. and yes the idea has a place maybe in some areas. But, lets face it... other than you and maybe  a couple others here... nobody is offering up this idea based on how it will help manage whitetails and or how it serves conservation... all we have here are guys jumping on a bandwagon that they think will give them more deer and bigger bucks to hunt... again NY is NOT Ohio... especially in that it doesn't have 6 million acres (over 1/4 of the state) of State land that goes virtually unmanaged to deal with... there is a lot to think about for managing NY whitetails before reducing buck tags and seasons. That's a hunter thing, not a management thing.

 

Edited January 24, 2015 by nyantler

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Sorry I meant, "how can anyone believe that is good management as a statewide plan... I'm with you on assessing what is needed in different areas of NY.. and yes the idea has a place maybe in some areas. But, lets face it... other than you and maybe  a couple others here... nobody is offering up this idea based on how it will help manage whitetails and or how it serves conservation... all we have here are guys jumping on a bandwagon that they think will give them more deer and bigger bucks to hunt... again NY is NOT Ohio... especially in that it doesn't have 6 million acres (over 1/4 of the state) of State land that goes virtually unmanaged to deal with... there is a lot to think about for managing NY whitetails before reducing buck tags and seasons. That's a hunter thing, not a management thing.

 

And thats just it...Hunters are not so Mgmt steps in. They are starting to move in the right direction by splitting the state even smaller. This Northern and Southern tier does not cut it because even in areas inside of those areas some have no deer where as others have an over population. 

[nyantler]

And thats just it...Hunters are not so Mgmt steps in. They are starting to move in the right direction by splitting the state even smaller. This Northern and Southern tier does not cut it because even in areas inside of those areas some have no deer where as others have an over population. 

 

The DEC manages hunters more than they do deer.

[First-light]

We are so diverse in our end goal. Here is a little slice of the property that borders me. How could the DEC make everyone happy?? My property is 6 hours from home. We hunt bow and gun. We take our share, some years 4 deer this year 2. Time and travel are a factor. If its late or your last hunt a yearling or fawn will do. My neighbor 200 acres. 80% of them come from out of state. They shoot any buck walking. Only the land owners get doe permits (3). My neighbor to the north 400 acres. They practice QDM. Only mature bucks and does get harvested. 5 people in this group, 2 are kids. This property gets lightly hunted. One of the reasons I see a lot of deer. To my west 100 acres. 3 people hunt this and will shoot any deer that comes by. Diversity for sure…...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

We are so diverse in our end goal. Here is a little slice of the property that borders me. How could the DEC make everyone happy?? My property is 6 hours from home. We hunt bow and gun. We take our share, some years 4 deer this year 2. Time and travel are a factor. If its late or your last hunt a yearling or fawn will do. My neighbor 200 acres. 80% of them come from out of state. They shoot any buck walking. Only the land owners get doe permits (3). My neighbor to the north 400 acres. They practice QDM. Only mature bucks and does get harvested. 5 people in this group, 2 are kids. This property gets lightly hunted. One of the reasons I see a lot of deer. To my west 100 acres. 3 people hunt this and will shoot any deer that comes by. Diversity for sure…...

So there..depending on how much land you have..will be say 1000 acres that will have maybe Ar and a one buck rule. Now take the number of hunters total and do the math. My math says there will be alot of mature deer on that property in a couple short years. What % out of all those hunters will see and harvest a legal buck? and if they do, it will only be 1. Things will add up fast if its good land and the right number of females are taken.

[G-Man]

The problem is its all estimates (the deer take and objectiveS) on less than a 1/2 square mile we take 5 to 10 antlered buck a year. But the objective for my wmu is 3.5 to 4.2. That means a lot of other area in that wmu is way under that. Perhaps better management is done by decreasing the size of wmu. And education. If you get a dump in your area and do not see many deer what says you have to fill it. The best properties are managed by the people that hunt it using the tags the dec issues and based on their own observations. I do not know of many camps that average 15 plus deer a year (usually consisting of 10 doe and rest antlered buck) for over 20 years. From my perspective there are mo re than enough deer and I see no need to change anything