I'm changing my stance on XBOWS

[LET EM GROW]

we all have missed (atleast i hope im not the only one:)) no matter what we are using to hunt with. rifle, shotgun, XBow or compound... You might be the greatest shot on the range or out back behind the house.. But its a whole different story in the woods up a stand, at eye level on the ground with that creature.. trying to go undetected and pull off a shot with your weapon of choice. Your adrenaline will make you do some crazy things.. That animal is not always going to stand still like our range targets do.. On top of that, anyone who has hunted for some time has wounded them too, if anyone has yet to wound a deer, well props to you. but it happens, especially with the less experienced hunter, we learn from mistakes. ill admit ive wounded 5 deer in my deer hunting day. all were lethal shots but 1, i just decided to track the deer too soon.. and push it further away, my fault. live and learn. the other shot was just a bad bow shot...(wrong pin, hit the leg, deer lived for years) .. Ive learned above and beyond from all these, believe me. 

 

The keyboard doesnt type itself, the car doesn't drive itself neither.. The gun does not shoot itself, its the person behind each of these whose in control.. The gun, the bow, the rifle, and the XBOw are all as good as the person in power of these things..

 

Get proficient with yourself and better all of our odds 

 

 

 

[nyantler]

Here's a better solution....wait until rifle season. Killing males before the rut is a bad idea anyway. 

 

Why... (sorry my question mark button isn't working)

[Jmny]

Freytown,

Thank you for your posting wildlife biologist J.T. Fleegled.it is a refreshing experience to have someone give factual information about deer behavior backed by factual studies instead of being subjected to everyone's emotional beliefs that are unfounded or unsubstantiated by any credible organization. As to the follow up.remark concerning does coming back into heat until bred ? I've read about the secondary breeding cycle for does that failed to breed successfully during the initial cycle, But a third and fourth cycle seems implausible. Based on my understand of the testosterone and hormonal levels of the buck and doe. Along with the gestation period of a deer being 200 days, the survival rate for a deer born in mid July to August throughout the first winter in the northern part of the country try seems low or improbable. Pleasure cite your references if I'm interpreting you post properly.

[wolc123]

It is refreshing to see at least one bow-hunter (the OP) changing their stance on the Crossbow. It looks like we might still have the momentum. Hopefully, that will soon culminate in full inclusion. Some of these recent replies indicate that there are still a few dug-in anti's out there who don't want it in "their" season no matter what.

The Man upstairs must be backing the Crossbow, because it looks like a pretty good weather forecast for the Southern-zone opener this Saturday. Those fighting to keep the Crossbow out remind me of the Axis trying to hold off the Allies, or the Rebs trying to stop the Yank's. While they both had some brave, highly-skilled soldiers, if you are fighting for a lost cause and without the backing of The Man upstairs, you would be better off rolling over early to reduce casualties on both sides.

Speaking of casualties, whats up with all the bow woundings being reported this year? It's not just here either. I ran into a local bow-hunting "all-star" out at a bar last night and even he reported wounding the largest buck he ever shot at this season.

[nyantler]

Two hunters were hunting a piece of land for a week with knowing the other was there. On the last day of the week they meet up on the way out of the woods. One hunter thinks the other is infringing on his archery season. Two minutes ago neither new the other was there.

 

The same thing happens the following week except they meet up at the end of the week, each dragging a deer. One hunter thinks "That guy took the easy way and didn't put in the practice time I did to get my buck". Two minutes before it was just two guys dragging out their deer.

 

I'm sure some of you won't get the point...

[upstate]

I've bow hunted for 25 years.

 

In early winter of 2011 a ladder I was on slid off a roof and I fell with the ladder about 18 feet. L2-3 and 4-5 experienced severe "burst compression fractures). However, since none of my ligaments tore I chose to brace up and not do surgery. I did not bow hunt that year not because I couldn't but because I knew better. 

 

standing on my practice stand (a 13 foot platform I built) I could easily maintain my good groupings out to 40 yards but those were in PERFECT conditions, standing square and facing the target with no twisting or odd movements. In all my years of bow hunting I've seen it all and done it all. I've missed, hit twigs, shot poorly, had a broken rest (I was unaware), estimated distance way off, hurried shots, harvested and lost deer. I've tracked wounded deer for days trying to recover, only to run into uncooperative land owners (2x). 

 

This summer as I began practice on 7/1 I noticed I was not doing well past 30 yards. Every night, since 1990, I'd shoot 3 groups of 6 arrows at varying distance deer targets.

 

So,  I had my oldest son, who has been shooting 10 years watch me and he told me I was hurrying my shots.  So the next time I shot I took my time and was perfect. Thing was, I was in agony. I simply can't hold, even what amounts to a 15 pound hold weight without severe pain, not in my back but my leg, hip and feet. 

 

Long story, short I have severe stenosis, a narrowing of my spinal column in the areas injured and it impacts the nerves in my spine which impacts EVERYTHING. I can walk, but slowly. It's having a profound impact on my hunting (like I've spent 2 days in the woods all season and that was early muzzle and  gun season). 

 

With that said, I will have a cross bow next season and I will use it to hunt, legally, when I can. There are no "permits" that allow me to use it earlier, in the northern or southern zones. It's legal and I will be in the woods until I can't be any longer. For all you purists, I don't necessarily agree with your arguments, just like I don't on QDM. Those are my opinions, which I'm entitled to, as are you. But to think you're entitled to a separate season is a bit much. Let's remember, these "seasons" are to manage the deer herd, not build our egos. 

[Jmny]

Well, if you have something to say finish your train of thought. I don't know whom you are trying to insult with the " i"m sure some of you won't understand " comment. If you actually believe a portion of the readers won't comprehend your train of thought, explain it in detail. Is your reference, that either or both hunters had negative comments about the other hunter in the area even though they were unaware of each other's presence while actually in the woods hunting? Or, people like to complain even if it is an exaggeration of the reality of the situation. It also exhibits the need of a hunter to think they are more skilled than their counterparts. I feel very inadequate not knowing if I really got the drift of your posting.

[Doc]

But to think you're entitled to a separate season is a bit much. Let's remember, these "seasons" are to manage the deer herd, not build our egos. 

There was never a bow season that was created to "manage the deer herd". For that matter, even the muzzleloader season was not created for that purpose either. They both were created to accommodate those that wanted challenge added to their deer hunting through a handicapping via the weapon used ..... period. And yes they have been bastardized unmercifully until it is beginning to be questionable why special seasons are even existing or needed. And by the time they are done, I'm sure more than a few will be asking why these kinds of weapons need there own seasons. In fact, that kind of talk is already getting louder and louder as success rates continue to grow.

[nyantler]

Well, if you have something to say finish your train of thought. I don't know whom you are trying to insult with the " i"m sure some of you won't understand " comment. If you actually believe a portion of the readers won't comprehend your train of thought, explain it in detail. Is your reference, that either or both hunters had negative comments about the other hunter in the area even though they were unaware of each other's presence while actually in the woods hunting? Or, people like to complain even if it is an exaggeration of the reality of the situation. It also exhibits the need of a hunter to think they are more skilled than their counterparts. I feel very inadequate not knowing if I really got the drift of your posting.

That was the point.. hunter vs hunter is all about some not getting it.  The only thing that made both those stories anything but just two hunters enjoying hunting was one persons thought process upon meeting up with the other. If you didn't get it, you're probably that person.

[upstate]

There was never a bow season that was created to "manage the deer herd". For that matter, even the muzzleloader season was not created for that purpose either. They both were created to accommodate those that wanted challenge added to their deer hunting through a handicapping via the weapon used ..... period. And yes they have been bastardized unmercifully until it is beginning to be questionable why special seasons are even existing or needed. And by the time they are done, I'm sure more than a few will be asking why these kinds of weapons need there own seasons. In fact, that kind of talk is already getting louder and louder as success rates continue to grow.

 

I won't get into the "intent" of why separate seasons because it happened long before I was born. But bow season was created when compound bows did not exist and I still recall having to use a lead ball, patch and powder, along with no scope on a muzzleloader to be legal. 

 

I want to hunt and I know my limitations, so right now I have a 30 yard range with my bow and when it shrinks to 0 I will use a crossbow. 

[jjb4900]

I won't get into the "intent" of why separate seasons because it happened long before I was born. But bow season was created when compound bows did not exist and I still recall having to use a lead ball, patch and powder, along with no scope on a muzzleloader to be legal. 

 

I want to hunt and I know my limitations, so right now I have a 30 yard range with my bow and when it shrinks to 0 I will use a crossbow. 

30 yards? that's pretty good...........there's nothing wrong with me (that I know of) and I limit my shots to under 30. 

[The_Field_Ager]

 bow season was created when compound bows did not exist 

 

 

Not that that makes it any closer to gun hunting in terms of process or ability to reach out. I suspect the average range of kill shot hasn't changed that much with the advent of compound tech. I don't like to go over 25 yards, and all but one of my bow deer have been taken at 15. That is more my comfort zone.

 

But for me, the big reason for preferring bow to gun is the ambient noise aspect and the generally calmer demeanor of hunter and animal.

 

Gun season sounds like WW3 round my way. I don't even like being in the woods on the weekend opener. It sounds like a firing squad and I wonder how deer make it through unscathed. It is not a pleasant hunting atmosphere. This is why my gun hunting is largely restricted to the Big Woods, and for a very limited number of days. I will go out very late gun if I need meat for the freezer.

 

Bow season would be a non-starter for me if Jim Bob and Billy Ray Jay were running about next-door firing off at shadows, as seems to be the course for gun season in my neck of the woods.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Papist

[upstate]

Not that that makes it any closer to gun hunting in terms of process or ability to reach out. I suspect the average range of kill shot hasn't changed that much with the advent of compound tech. I don't like to go over 25 yards, and all but one of my bow deer have been taken at 15. That is more my comfort zone.

 

But for me, the big reason for preferring bow to gun is the ambient noise aspect and the generally calmer demeanor of hunter and animal.

 

Gun season sounds like WW3 round my way. I don't even like being in the woods on the weekend opener. It sounds like a firing squad and I wonder how deer make it through unscathed. It is not a pleasant hunting atmosphere. This is why my gun hunting is largely restricted to the Big Woods, and for a very limited number of days. I will go out very late gun if I need meat for the freezer.

 

Bow season would be a non-starter for me if Jim Bob and Billy Ray Jay were running about next-door firing off at shadows, as seems to be the course for gun season in my neck of the woods.

There is no better time of year than now. You can actually, almost see a deer act normally rather than waiting for a barrage of shots. 

 

I hunted near Rushville in 8N for years, I miss it horribly, but gun season was nuts. 

[Doc]

I won't get into the "intent" of why separate seasons because it happened long before I was born. But bow season was created when compound bows did not exist and I still recall having to use a lead ball, patch and powder, along with no scope on a muzzleloader to be legal. 

 

I want to hunt and I know my limitations, so right now I have a 30 yard range with my bow and when it shrinks to 0 I will use a crossbow. 

I was bowhunting before compounds, and I was there when the introduction of compounds divided the bowhunters. And I remember the specific arguments for and against. I recall that those against compounds argued that compounds would set precedents that would be used to insert all kinds of other weapons into bow season. Now, decades later, I can only say that that argument has been fulfilled and strengthened. Each new step toward accommodating those that don't wish to develop the skills but still want to participate in bow seasons moves us closer to losing all that we have worked so hard to establish. Just as compounds have provided the precedent for crossbows, the crossbows will provide precedents for other weapons to infiltrate bow seasons. All the reasons why bow season was deemed worthy of its own special rules and timeslots are being removed, piece by piece. Gun hunters are already questioning why bowhunters need these advantages as archery success rates continue to climb.

 

Where will it all end? ....I don't really know, but judging from the results of the compound introduction, my guess will be that the changes will not stop with crossbows. Revisions will accelerate, until the obvious conclusion will result that there are no real purposes for special seasons, and there will be legal changes that will essentially make the differences between bow seasons and gun seasons irrelevant in a practical sense. Just as wild advances of compound technology took archery away from the primitive pastime that the season was created for, crossbows will simply provide yet another raw platform for even crazier technologies to build onto. At some point crossbows will become the precedent that opens the season up to even more additions including some versions of firearms. The inclusion of muzzleloaders is a long-standing item on the wish-list of the DEC. It really is just a matter of time before all of the reasons that we each moved into bowhunting will disappear. And we will become the new orange army that we tried to escape when we took up the bow. Sounds impossible? well, remember that the DEC has already threatened that within a couple of seasons in certain WMUs muzzleloaders will likely join our ranks. The precedent of firearms in bow seasons has already been established and accepted. So the unwritten rule of no firearms in bow seasons has already been trashed. Some bowhunters already see the handwriting on the wall and fight the trend to trash bowhunting. Others don't really give a damn if these things happen or not, and then there are the majority of hunters who are eagerly pushing to make these things happen and bowhunters to be pushed out of the woods. So, I have no doubt that the continuing push to eliminate bowhunting as we knew it, will happen. And that's why I continue to drag my feet and fight the inevitable. Something wonderful is being lost, and I simply don't want to see it happen.

[Five Seasons]

 

Long story, short I have severe stenosis, a narrowing of my spinal column in the areas injured and it impacts the nerves in my spine which impacts EVERYTHING. I can walk, but slowly. It's having a profound impact on my hunting (like I've spent 2 days in the woods all season and that was early muzzle and  gun season). 

 

there has never been a fight by me or most archers for a simple and easy process to allow handicaped and disabled hunters to use the crossbow.

 

my issue is that wolc believes god is backing the crossbow for those that are too lazy to learn the compound or recurve.

 

Hunting was never solely intended to manage a herd. It held several purposes. Allowed outdoorsman to do something they love and created rules and regs so that all could enjoy it and it would not be abused. It allowed the management of populations, it brought in millions of dollars in license sales to help fund conservation programs, it brought jobs to companies selling and making hunting gear, firearms and archery equipment. there is not just 1 single reason that hunting seasons were created, and initially I guarantee herd management was not nearly the hot button it is today.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Belo

[upstate]

there has never been a fight by me or most archers for a simple and easy process to allow handicaped and disabled hunters to use the crossbow.

 

my issue is that wolc believes god is backing the crossbow for those that are too lazy to learn the compound or recurve.

 

Hunting was never solely intended to manage a herd. It held several purposes. Allowed outdoorsman to do something they love and created rules and regs so that all could enjoy it and it would not be abused. It allowed the management of populations, it brought in millions of dollars in license sales to help fund conservation programs, it brought jobs to companies selling and making hunting gear, firearms and archery equipment. there is not just 1 single reason that hunting seasons were created, and initially I guarantee herd management was not nearly the hot button it is today.

 

Disabled hunters that can use a crossbow are paralyzed. I can apply to get an assisted bow, whatever the hell that means. 

 

Hunting regulations were put in place to manage the herd, especially with gun. Bow season is awesome and I don't believe that you'll see an influx of people out there with a crossbow that are new to the sport.  JMHO 

[shawnhu]

I know there are some folks out there who live for bow-hunting and are willing to put in the effort to become very proficient with that weapon. Where I have a problem is when they don't want to share "their" deer with folks who may lack the strength, or time to attain such proficiency. That is pretty much pure selfish elitism. There are plenty of deer to go around but they do deserve to be killed cleanly. If the crossbow can help us "lazier" folks do that, why keep them out? We need all the hunters we can get. If you hunt with a vertical bow, you have got to be willing to accept some misses, and some woundings. This site is especially loaded with examples of that this year.

Obviously no one wants to wound deer, but some of us are bothered more than others by that. I only missed a deer once with my bow, over 30 years, but I did wound a few that I did not recover. I have forgotten some of my clean kills, but none of the woundings. I know for certain that one of those fully recovered, as a friend harvested him a month later with a healed up shoulder blade. Two others I hit there likely did ok also, but the one I hit too far back will always haunt me. I was always "done for the season" with the bow on those years. I cringe every time I see folks tell those who wound deer to "get back out there and try again". I say "get to the range", or "hang it up for the year, learn from your mistake, and do better next season".

While I cant speak for anyone else, I know that in my hands at least, a deer is far less likely to be wounded from my crossbow than my vertical bow. There is simply no comparison in the accuracy I can achieve firing a scoped crossbow from a rest, and a vertical bow with pin & peep sights offhand. I can pick out a hair I want to hit at 50 yards with that crossbow, while I am limited to a pie-plate at 30 yards with my vertical. For that reason, I doubt I will pick up my vertical again for deer hunting. Sure it would be nice to get out there for all of archery season, but I am thankful that we at least got the best two weeks. I like it cold for deer hunting, so I didn't miss anything on this warm season so far anyhow. Saturday's cold forecast looks perfect for the opener.

You don't need practice. JC will guide your compound arrow to its final destination. Go pick up that compound, or rock for that matter and go hunt.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Doc]

Disabled hunters that can use a crossbow are paralyzed. I can apply to get an assisted bow, whatever the hell that means. 

 

Hunting regulations were put in place to manage the herd, especially with gun. Bow season is awesome and I don't believe that you'll see an influx of people out there with a crossbow that are new to the sport.  JMHO 

It is interesting that the effort never did focus on expanding handicapped access to crossbows. However, it did provide a very emotional issue to push the true agenda of jamming crossbows across the board into bow season.

[Grizz1219]

Here's a better solution....wait until rifle season. Killing males before the rut is a bad idea anyway. 

 

 

"Killing males"???? Really.... Most people call them Bucks.... and in no way is it a bad idea... Ever.... 

[Jeremy K]

I grew up in a family of shooting archery ,I would feel like a complete poser if I started using a bow that holds full draw for you .

[Five Seasons]

Disabled hunters that can use a crossbow are paralyzed. I can apply to get an assisted bow, whatever the hell that means. 

 

Hunting regulations were put in place to manage the herd, especially with gun. Bow season is awesome and I don't believe that you'll see an influx of people out there with a crossbow that are new to the sport.  JMHO 

 

and that's why I stated it should be easier to use a crossbow if disabled. I do not agree with the current regs. It should be as simple as a doctors note and an age limit. Sure people will fake them, but by and large it'll help more than hurt.

 

and I will continue to disagree about hunting seasons.

[Doc]

 

Hunting was never solely intended to manage a herd. It held several purposes. Allowed outdoorsman to do something they love and created rules and regs so that all could enjoy it and it would not be abused. It allowed the management of populations, it brought in millions of dollars in license sales to help fund conservation programs, it brought jobs to companies selling and making hunting gear, firearms and archery equipment. there is not just 1 single reason that hunting seasons were created, and initially I guarantee herd management was not nearly the hot button it is today.

The original bow season was created by and for bow hunters so they could take part in a unique way of providing weapons challenges to their deer hunting .... period. It was not at all about bringing in any significant money. It was not about any imagined impact on herd management and in fact was not participated in by any significant numbers of hunters for a long time and was looked on as a very low impact curiosity by most hunters.

 

Yes it has grown in popularity over the decades and the nature of bowhunting has changed significantly every time a new weapon or technological advancement was introduced. Is that a good thing? Probably not if the whole removal of the concept of challenge is the necessary result and now the primary thrust of the activity.

 

Further NYS bowhunting history: http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/574-history-nys-archery/

[LI OUTDOORSMAN]

I think the word challenge is often misused in the hunting world especially when its applied to bow season. The "challenge" in archery is not that it should harder to put a mortal wound on an animal..That should NEVER be the challenge.The difficulty lies in being more in tune with deer and deer habits.Learning how to situate yourself in the woods and getting deer in close is whats fun and challenging..Once a deer is in proper range the ethical and humane shot is then taken...what you take that shot with should not be dictated by an elitist group or persons not completely informed in the other implements.

[greg54]

Disabled hunters that can use a crossbow are paralyzed. I can apply to get an assisted bow, whatever the hell that means. 

 

Hunting regulations were put in place to manage the herd, especially with gun. Bow season is awesome and I don't believe that you'll see an influx of people out there with a crossbow that are new to the sport.  JMHO 

I am disabled and have a modified archery permit. I use a device called a "Draw Loc" that is attached to my bow. If you have a modified archery permit you can use this device.

[fasteddie]

I havn't changed my stance on the Crossbow . I don't support them but I also don't fight against them . If someone wants to shoot something easier than a recurve or compound go for it . I am 74 and not ready to make the jump to a crossbow . Then again , just about the time I would purchase one , ML's would be legal in the Archery Season .