Antler restrictions

[Buckstopshere]

30 minutes ago, Trial153 said:

The outliers of the bell curve are ridiculous examples to use in this argument.

Well what is the bell curve? Since we have so few examples of old bucks in the wild...not farmed deer with farmed deer genetics and minerals, my point is that this six point may be the center of the curve. The 150 class 4.5 year old is the outlier on the extreme in a wild setting. And that is what we are talking about.

[Buckstopshere]

24 minutes ago, Zuke said:

At 8.5 he is potentially on his way downhill and may very well have been at least an 8 in years prior.

Possible. But I would not hang my hat on it. Just as likely, he may have been a four point... a big fork at 5.5 and in later years finally sprouted brow tines.

[Trial153]

community.deergear.com/the-hunt/hunting-deer-the-percentage-principle/

[Four Season Whitetail's]

In our case a buck like that is few and far between really. Most that reach maturity also reach 120-150in. We only shoot mature deer and thats what our deer seem to be when taken. One of of ten may be sub par. I saw a big old crotch horn taken this year a few miles away. You could just look at that buck and see his age. I would have love to see him a couple years earlier. Doubtful he had that same looking rack but sure is possible.

[Zuke]

2 hours ago, Buckstopshere said:

How 'bout a sub-100 class 8.5 year old taken two weeks ago? What do you think he scores? Here's two views. (By the way, a great animal!)

Tell your buddy awesome deer. I think that thing is neat as hell!

[ATbuckhunter]

3 hours ago, Buckstopshere said:

How 'bout a sub-100 class 8.5 year old taken two weeks ago? What do you think he scores? Here's two views. (By the way, a great animal!)

That is one nice buck!

[dbHunterNY]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 5:38 PM, wolc123 said:

I am against mandatory antler restrictions, but I am a pure "meat-hunter".  The only reason I pass 1-1/2 year old bucks, is because the 2-1/2's and 3-1/2's taste the same but have a lot more meat on meat on them.  I understand why those who are fixated on antlers rather than meat like them.  In NY state at this time, those folks seem to be in the minority.   I also prefer killing bucks compared to does, because they are easier for me to butcher (less fat to trim away), come with nice grab-handles to drag out of heavy cover, and nice "reminders" of past hunts.   I also prefer the local deer population to be a bit on the high side, and taking a buck over a doe is a good way to help maintain that population for future years.        

Not true the survey that Cornell did prove 70% are in favor of them for increasing their odds at a bigger buck as long as it's not just their little area but instead law so everyone had to do it.  The survey asked questions though that opened the door to a mixture of conflicting results.  they got the results of yea I'd like to shoot anything and everything but have a great opportunity at shooting a bigger buck and sustainable population.  any knowledgeable hunter knows there's contradiction.  it's no different than yea I want money but no I don't want a job.

for that last statement you can have as many doe as you like but a buck will only get to so many of them for them to be making more fawns.  it'd be different if the bucks weren't being mowed off as many of the doe are ready to be tended to.  in many areas in NY this isn't a problem because people do shoot some doe and pass some bucks.  in areas where shooting a doe is taboo and any legal buck is great then it does seem to be an issue.  fawn recruitment sucks then.  I grew up in one of those areas.

about everything else you typed I'm hard pressed to differ with ya.

[dbHunterNY]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 4:09 AM, Doc said:

I am of the thought that everytime you pile on more restrictions, or try to limit harvests, you lose another armful of hunters. I also believe that much of the reduction in hunter numbers comes from the relatively recent constant belittlement of the deer that people choose to take. Little by little, there is a growing number of hunters that want to get themselves involved in the business of what you need to consider as your hunting goals. The result is to take away from the enjoyment of hunting and continue to drive more hunters out of the activity. There is no excuse for belittling the harvest of another or trying to make them feel bad about the deer that they chose to take. And that is true whether you attack via personal ridicule or passing laws.

If the hunting is better you recruit more hunters.  do what's best for deer to make them thrive and hunting will be better.

[chas0218]

I'm for AR and 1 buck rule, 4 on one side.

[chas0218]

On 11/25/2016 at 7:51 PM, Buckstopshere said:

How 'bout a sub-100 class 8.5 year old taken two weeks ago? What do you think he scores? Here's two views. (By the way, a great animal!)

Just curious where did you send it to have it aged?

[dbHunterNY]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 5:56 PM, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

Who would work them and who would pay for it?


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DEC staff regional biologists included travel about the country side burning gas and man hours at local butchers and other places to get harvest data to make up for lack of reporting.  i'll believe they even hire people seasonally or part time in addition to go collect this data.  it'd only take one person.  for our QDM co-op we ask for more info than what DEC records for harvest data.  our process is so simple the hunters check in the deer themselves at an unmanned station.  in OK you basically weigh the deer on a scale in town outside the local 24 hour 7-Eleven and then walk into to get a caracass tag and fill in data into a book similar to one you sign to vote.  they could make it work.

[dbHunterNY]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 7:06 PM, Deerstalker said:

Dont no why anyone would want more restrictions . Its hard enough at least on public land to get anything as it is  .

If they do that it should be only in select areas so people have a Choice. 

if they make them better it wouldn't be restrictions with the same quality of hunting.  hunting would be better to off set them.  it's hard to understand until you experience it for yourself.  so I'm not passing judgement and I understand where you're coming from.  if things didn't get better any restriction would go away. 

[Buckstopshere]

23 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Just curious where did you send it to have it aged?

Two state game biologists at the deer processor aged him at 8.5. Weighed 203 lb. field dressed there. Probably should send a tooth in to be sure.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 11/24/2016 at 6:21 PM, The_Real_TCIII said:

Boy Scout troops.


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Another population of dwindling numbers. 

[ApexerER]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 5:44 PM, Four Season Whitetails said:

I know many.  I also know of some that love to fill the rest of their families tags for them.Tighten up some rules and things would change for the better.

One buck rule is not going to stop the guy that fills his wife's tag, kids tag etc....It would be another rule that hurts the law abiders...

[chas0218]

47 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

Not true the survey that Cornell did prove 70% are in favor of them for increasing their odds at a bigger buck as long as it's not just their little area but instead law so everyone had to do it.  The survey asked questions though that opened the door to a mixture of conflicting results.  they got the results of yea I'd like to shoot anything and everything but have a great opportunity at shooting a bigger buck and sustainable population.  any knowledgeable hunter knows there's contradiction.  it's no different than yea I want money but no I don't want a job.

for that last statement you can have as many doe as you like but a buck will only get to so many of them for them to be making more fawns.  it'd be different if the bucks weren't being mowed off as many of the doe are ready to be tended to.  in many areas in NY this isn't a problem because people do shoot some doe and pass some bucks.  in areas where shooting a doe is taboo and any legal buck is great then it does seem to be an issue.  fawn recruitment sucks then.  I grew up in one of those areas.

about everything else you typed I'm hard pressed to differ with ya.

Down here in Steuben county it is all about filling those tags, if you pass up any deer you are chastised. My wife is a high school teacher in a small school surrounded by farms and the kids come in bragging about the deer them and their family shot filling mom's dad's brother's tags. It's ridiculous how many 1 1/2 year old bucks get killed in that area. My wife tells them the deer I pass and they all think I'm nuts then shows them the pictures of the deer. Their exact words "We don't have deer like that around here" well no crap when you shoot everything under the sun. I hunt for meat but a nice rack is an added bonus, I pass bucks in hope they make it another year. I know and don't expect every buck to live but the more I pass the better my odds for seeing a bigger one next season.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 11/25/2016 at 6:22 PM, Buckstopshere said:

So many impassioned comments from both sides of the issue. But I think there is one false underlying biological principal that pro-antler restriction advocates should consider. And that is, our bucks and does are wild...and they have their genetic history which is different than farm raised or deer in-a-pen researched animals. Many of the studies which track and chronicle the progress of a yearling buck to mature use top quality genetic animals. Like breeding pure-bred anything. And whitetails have been selectively bred to produce big antlers. Look at the bucks in hunting preserves. So out comes the history in photos of the spike buck that is a 150 class in four years. Our wild whitetails are mutts. Sorry, but it is the truth. Once in a while they will produce a great antlered animal in a few years...like they do in the deer farmer's pen...but that is the rare exception. Chances are much greater that a four or  six point at 2.5 years in our wild areas...will be no better than a huge six-point, with coke-bottle bases at three years down the road. Some will never be more than big 7 pointers. They are great animals...that's not my point. We have a genetic mix that is not going to produce 14, 16 point bucks that approach 200 B&C and P&Y at any age. And the promise of antler restrictions to produce "bigger" and mature deer by protecting the yearling buck at all costs is overlooking the fact that our wild deer often will only produce big four or six pointers due to the wild genetics. An old bird dog breeder with many champions told me, "breeding always goes toward the mediocre."

The main factor in helping any buck in reaching a "trophy" potential is Age. I would put habitat/food sources/ wintering and predatory stress and genetics after Age in that order. And the part I bolded and underlined is wrong, That is not the case for the vast majority of them. 

[chas0218]

31 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

Two state game biologists at the deer processor aged him at 8.5. Weighed 203 lb. field dressed there. Probably should send a tooth in to be sure.

I shot a deer that looked similar but 34 lbs. lighter and was aged between 4 1/2 & 5 1/2. Granted it really depends on the area, but I wouldn't have pegged that deer for 8 1/2 based on the deer my area.

Edited November 29, 2016 by chas0218

[Deerstalker]

31 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

if they make them better it wouldn't be restrictions with the same quality of hunting.  hunting would be better to off set them.  it's hard to understand until you experience it for yourself.  so I'm not passing judgement and I understand where you're coming from.  if things didn't get better any restriction would go away. 

 

Not sure what they should do really .

I dont  have problem with antler restrictions on certain public lands  but not  all over so you can decide for your self if you want to go for a bigger buck or just  any deer .

Some times people just dont have the time to hold off for a bigger deer .

What ever they do it has to keep more hunters in the game just saying .

 

 

[Grizz1219]

2 hours ago, ApexerER said:

One buck rule is not going to stop the guy that fills his wife's tag, kids tag etc....It would be another rule that hurts the law abiders...

True.. but if you are going to break the law you will break any law.. we can't base decisions solely on the rule breakers... 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 hours ago, ApexerER said:

One buck rule is not going to stop the guy that fills his wife's tag, kids tag etc....It would be another rule that hurts the law abiders...

Sure it would. When you have to have that wife or kid standing in front of a DEC officer while checking in that deer. A one buck rule would not hurt any law abiding hunter and manditory check in with unused tags having to be sent back in would turn that sh!t around quick.

A wife is going to tell her law breaking husband to screw off when she has to stand in front of DEC and lie about her hunt and the DEC would see right thru it.....

[Trial153]

Something that I would like ask all the naysayers. What the hell do we possibly loose by allowing bucks to get some age on them ? If nothing else at the very least we established a more natural age structure within herd.
The excuses and back peddling is at the point of ridiculousness.

[adkhunter71]

I invite anyone who is for AR to hunt the Adirondacks where there are no doe tags available.  Eating tag soup year after year would get pretty old for most people....

[stoneam2006]

I invite anyone who is for AR to hunt the Adirondacks where there are no doe tags available.  Eating tag soup year after year would get pretty old for most people....

I double that with anyone on the state land and consistently take 6 or betters . Majority pro AR hunt private land

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[chrisw]

I double that with anyone on the state land and consistently take 6 or betters . Majority pro AR hunt private land

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I'm probably in the minority here but I hunt only state land and I'd be for some sort of AR. I've let anything 1.5 or younger go for 5 years now. I've had at least one opportunity at a 2.5yr old buck every year on state land. Last year I killed a 9 pt and this year I killed an 8, and 4 years ago I killed an 8, all during archery. The other years I didn't kill a buck, I shoot does for meat and if I don't kill a buck I'm fine with that. I've killed a lot of 1.5yr old bucks and they just don't do it for me anymore. But having said that... I do understand that some people don't have the time, or simply are happy with a 4 pt and I'm fine with that too. I guess I'm on both sides of the argument. I think they should let everyone vote on it, when you buy your license you get a vote on AR, majority wins. Simple. I'm sure that would result in no AR's but hey you never know.

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