Deer are the Enemy - 2016 Season Venting

[Curmudgeon]

Here in 4F there are way too many deer. So, why did 6 guys hunting my property only fill 2 of 10 doe tags?

1: In early October, 90% of the deer disappeared from my cameras. Why? Maybe the lack of apples. Maybe because bow season combined with the youth hunt pushed them onto safe/posted land. Last year a camera on a big, sweet apple tree was getting many daytime photos, and one every minute all night long, all fall. This fall many of deer were evident 400-500' lower on the hill. It's a steep grade, about 30% on my north side. The elevation change does not represent a long distance. (The youth hunt coincided with the bachelor group of 8 breaking up. One of those deer was shot by a youth and not retrieved. The story I got was that there was no blood trail so they didn't pursue it, figuring he missed. I found the deer less than 200 yards from the pop-up blind they used. I flushed 6 eagles and 4 or 5 ravens and went to see what they were up to.)

2: There are now about 700 acres across the road from me where NO hunting is allowed. In the middle of those 3 properties that are safe zones is an 80 acre chunk owned by a guy from LI who hunts alone opening weekend. If you call a score of short ATV trips each day hunting.

3: I have permission to push deer off a 60 acre piece kitty-corner to my property where no shooting is allowed. I unload my rifle when I cross the line. I pushed it the afternoon second day of the regular season in the storm and strong NW winds. It was a shooting gallery. Deer were standing all over, broadside, downwind of me, staring at me, 30 yards away, 40 yards, all close. Attempts to move them to my guys just caused them to go around me and back into the wind. I moved 22 individual deer in a hour long slow walk. We shot none that day.

4: Deer damage to Christmas trees have been relatively light the past 2 winters. If conditions are just right (enough snow to cover the grass but still easy walking), I will get hammered. The deer spend their days on the east side of the road. They come to the west side at night to eat fir. I don't like to do it but I may have to resort to nuisance tags and night hunting. I have only done this once before.

5: Occasionally you will read rants about coyotes on this forum. When it comes to killing deer, 4F coyotes are absolutely incompetent. Yeah, they kill a few fawns in the spring. Other than that, they only seem successful at killing small deer in very specific conditions - deep snow and a good crust. Given what I read from the He Man Coyote Haters Club members on this forum, I have determined that 4F coyotes must be a different species.

6: Last evening at 3:45 a tree customer told me there was a buck and 3 does feeding near the road a 1/4 mile from my house, just across the road. ARRRRH!

7: While filling a bunch of freezers is high on my priority list, I declined to shoot a young buck opening day. I was figuring we would have a pile of does, and it wasn't a perfect shot. That can make a difference with me. I don't care about trophies. I care about clean kills and lowering the population. At the pace it was walking, it took it 5 minutes to get to the guy south of me who shot it. Why let these little ones go when almost everyone else in my neighborhood shoots them?

8: End Rant!

 

 

[Lawdwaz]

Go halfer's with Paula on a side of beef.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

21 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Here in 4F there are way too many deer. So, why did 6 guys hunting my property only fill 2 of 10 doe tags?

1: In early October, 90% of the deer disappeared from my cameras. Why? Maybe the lack of apples. Maybe because bow season combined with the youth hunt pushed them onto safe/posted land. Last year a camera on a big, sweet apple tree was getting many daytime photos, and one every minute all night long, all fall. This fall many of deer were evident 400-500' lower on the hill. It's a steep grade, about 30% on my north side. The elevation change does not represent a long distance. (The youth hunt coincided with the bachelor group of 8 breaking up. One of those deer was shot by a youth and not retrieved. The story I got was that there was no blood trail so they didn't pursue it, figuring he missed. I found the deer less than 200 yards from the pop-up blind they used. I flushed 6 eagles and 4 or 5 ravens and went to see what they were up to.)

2: There are now about 700 acres across the road from me where NO hunting is allowed. In the middle of those 3 properties that are safe zones is an 80 acre chunk owned by a guy from LI who hunts alone opening weekend. If you call a score of short ATV trips each day hunting.

3: I have permission to push deer off a 60 acre piece kitty-corner to my property where no shooting is allowed. I unload my rifle when I cross the line. I pushed it the afternoon second day of the regular season in the storm and strong NW winds. It was a shooting gallery. Deer were standing all over, broadside, downwind of me, staring at me, 30 yards away, 40 yards, all close. Attempts to move them to my guys just caused them to go around me and back into the wind. I moved 22 individual deer in a hour long slow walk. We shot none that day.

4: Deer damage to Christmas trees have been relatively light the past 2 winters. If conditions are just right (enough snow to cover the grass but still easy walking), I will get hammered. The deer spend their days on the east side of the road. They come to the west side at night to eat fir. I don't like to do it but I may have to resort to nuisance tags and night hunting. I have only done this once before.

5: Occasionally you will read rants about coyotes on this forum. When it comes to killing deer, 4F coyotes are absolutely incompetent. Yeah, they kill a few fawns in the spring. Other than that, they only seem successful at killing small deer in very specific conditions - deep snow and a good crust. Given what I read from the He Man Coyote Haters Club members on this forum, I have determined that 4F coyotes must be a different species.

6: Last evening at 3:45 a tree customer told me there was a buck and 3 does feeding near the road a 1/4 mile from my house, just across the road. ARRRRH!

7: While filling a bunch of freezers is high on my priority list, I declined to shoot a young buck opening day. I was figuring we would have a pile of does, and it wasn't a perfect shot. That can make a difference with me. I don't care about trophies. I care about clean kills and lowering the population. At the pace it was walking, it took it 5 minutes to get to the guy south of me who shot it. Why let these little ones go when almost everyone else in my neighborhood shoots them?

8: End Rant!

 

 

Well lets see? You speak of no deer in your hunting spots but then say that there must be no or very few yote killings in your area?  Well Ya i guess if you had no deer you would have no killings. Unless of course they are Walking Dead back from the East side to the West.

You may also be in one of the lucky places that still have a small game population.  I would have to say that it seems even the Yote population in down as only 3 were killed i the North and 2 were taken at Camp with not a lot of night time yippin and yappen!

[landtracdeerhunter]

I like to plant things the neighbors (6, 7 mile radius) don't. On a lean nut and apple year like we just went through coupled with a 60 year drought; I had to come up with an offensive plan of attack; a quick growing salad bowl. We started getting the rains in mid August which really added the vitamins for a strong team. .Add I didn't need to deflate the ball to turn a potentially bad season into a clasic, LOL.

[Core]

I wonder if this is going to be a lean year on harvests compared to last, even though last winter was warm. I'm almost 20 hunts in a row striking out. I'll be out another 4-6 times and I expect I will continue to pull nothing. I see fresh sign all the time but the deer are completely evaporated from where I can hunt come day time. Just no activity at all; gone.

[The_Real_TCIII]

36 minutes ago, Core said:

I wonder if this is going to be a lean year on harvests compared to last, even though last winter was warm. I'm almost 20 hunts in a row striking out. I'll be out another 4-6 times and I expect I will continue to pull nothing. I see fresh sign all the time but the deer are completely evaporated from where I can hunt come day time. Just no activity at all; gone.

Id be surprised if it wasnt a lean year just due to the terrible weather most of opening weekend. Weather like we had usually sets up an excellent bow season the following year

[Core]

44 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

Id be surprised if it wasnt a lean year just due to the terrible weather most of opening weekend. Weather like we had usually sets up an excellent bow season the following year

If people are that easily frustrated, that's good news for the rest of us  First week of gun really was pretty terrible weather.

[Curmudgeon]

2 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Well lets see? You speak of no deer in your hunting spots but then say that there must be no or very few yote killings in your area?  Well Ya i guess if you had no deer you would have no killings. Unless of course they are Walking Dead back from the East side to the West.

You may also be in one of the lucky places that still have a small game population.  I would have to say that it seems even the Yote population in down as only 3 were killed i the North and 2 were taken at Camp with not a lot of night time yippin and yappen!

You misunderstood. There are lots of deer, way too many deer. The coyotes are not doing what you claim they do. There is also way too much land where hunting is forbidden adjacent to me. The deer know where they are safe. Then, there is the restriction that my DMAP tags must be used on my property.

Re small game: Rabbits are up; Grouse are steady but down from a several years back; Both squirrels are out of control - I killed 5 red last week when I discovered one was trying to chew its way into the house; turkey are in good shape; there were a lot of woodcock back in October. 

[Core]

10 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

You misunderstood. There are lots of deer, way too many deer. The coyotes are not doing what you claim they do. There is also way too much land where hunting is forbidden adjacent to me. The deer know where they are safe. Then, there is the restriction that my DMAP tags must be used on my property.

Re small game: Rabbits are up; Grouse are steady but down from a several years back; Both squirrels are out of control - I killed 5 red last week when I discovered one was trying to chew its way into the house; turkey are in good shape; there were a lot of woodcock back in October. 

I know people have mentioned it in the past and it's a huge topic, but it would be really nice if the state could come up with some plan to encourage private land owners to open their land to hunters (no idea what it would look like and of course not compulsory, and surely some compensation in some form and yes I'd pay for that myself). I hunt mainly a 600 acre chunk of public land that is serving up hunting to dozens of square miles of people who have no private. I even have DMP tags. None of us are doing a darn thing to address deer population numbers when literally across the street there may be another 300 acres of sanctuary that nobody hunts.

There is one road in fairport I drive by and I see deer there on this guy's front yard constantly, loitering just next to the road. In the past month I've had to slow twice to watch them cross the road including last night as a bunch just hung out there. But all the state can really do is offer more DMPs that aren't going to make one lick of difference to the family that live next to this guy's house.

[growalot]

Sounds like your doe and ours got the same memo...With the new crops this year...I couldn't compete with the farmer fields and the pine plantations next to them... Then you have the sanctuaries and swamps... 200 red oaks that dropped a ton of acorns and our apple trees were loaded...The incentive idea would never work here...the sanctuary ,she'd cut off her right arm before allowing doe hunting The other no doe property had a QDM guy buy right next door...lots of shooting there...so I'm pretty sure they have dug in their heels even more than before......and because of the brown down ,trespasser ,being shot at by the land owners behind and to the north east of the sanctuary... They won't even hunt due to pushing deer to them.....Besides the lay of the land, she can sit on her deck and shoot what ever buck she likes. The lease guys aren't going to say... hey come on in  and the land owner is loyal to them. Then you have the guy that had a hunting friend killed on his land, and the farmers that hunt and are sick to death of the trespassing 4wheelers and snowmobiles ripping up his fields...he lines his road frontage with equipment ,round bales and posts with chains......

I'll just have to figure out a new strategy for next year and work on the plans this winter...Because I have seen for the past 3 years doe getting more and more nocturnal...They always have, but with everyone here bow hunting  by Oct 7th they are night owls and for the ones not...they are spooky, jumpy and look like snoopy doing his little dance....noses straight  up in the air...eyes scanning the tree tops...Deer are the most adaptable animals I think I've ever seen in the wild...just look at suburban buck bedding in yards...doe dropping fawns in parking lots on college campuses. Even in the country..... I talk about and  have shown pics of the numerous deer that bed right next to our barking Shepherd kennel...It's a coyote free zone and you can bet they know it.

Of course now you have the DEC saying..... we are tightening our laws...Even you back yard bird feeders aren't safe..one warning then a ticket ,Gosh such criminal activity as to trying to enjoy a bird feeder in your back yard...God forbid your neighbor gets a bee in their bonnet over anything...one more angle for back door revenge...lol DEC putting more regulations  in place,that we all know they will screw up in implementing. To limit any advantage to deer kills. Do I think it will have a big effect..no, but to some it will just be physiologically limiting..Which I think has a greater impact on kill #'s than people think. All this then saying...... hey please open your lands and yards to us, we need your help... I can hear the collective FY's ringing across the state especially from those non hunting....bird watchers...lol

Edited December 8, 2016 by growalot

[Core]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

Sounds like your doe and ours got the same memo...With the new crops this year...I couldn't compete with the farmer fields and the pine plantations next to them... Then you have the sanctuaries and swamps... 200 red oaks that dropped a ton of acorns and our apple trees were loaded...The incentive idea would never work here...the sanctuary ,she'd cut off her right arm before allowing doe hunting The other no doe property had a QDM guy buy right next door...lots of shooting there...so I'm pretty sure they have dug in their heels even more than before......and because of the brown down ,trespasser ,being shot at by the land owners behind and to the north east of the sanctuary... They won't even hunt due to pushing deer to them.....Besides the lay of the land, she can sit on her deck and shoot what ever buck she likes. The lease guys aren't going to say... hey come on in  and the land owner is loyal to them. Then you have the guy that had a hunting friend killed on his land, and the farmers that hunt and are sick to death of the trespassing 4wheelers and snowmobiles ripping up his fields...he lines his road frontage with equipment ,round bales and posts with chains......

I'll just have to figure out a new strategy for next year and work on the plans this winter...Because I have seen for the past 3 years doe getting more and more nocturnal...They always have, but with everyone here bow hunting  by Oct 7th they are night owls and for the ones not...they are spooky, jumpy and look like snoopy doing his little dance....noses straight  up in the air...eyes scanning the tree tops...Deer are the most adaptable animals I think I've ever seen in the wild...just look at suburban buck bedding in yards...doe dropping fawns in parking lots on college campuses. Even in the country..... I talk about and  have shown pics of the numerous deer that bed right next to our barking Shepherd kennel...It's a coyote free zone and you can bet they know it.

Of course now you have the DEC saying..... we are tightening our laws...Even you back yard bird feeders aren't safe..one warning then a ticket ,Gosh such criminal activity as to trying to enjoy a bird feeder in your back yard...God forbid your neighbor gets a bee in their bonnet over anything...one more angle for back door revenge...lol DEC putting more regulations  in place,that we all know they will screw up in implementing. To limit any advantage to deer kills. Do I think it will have a big effect..no, but to some it will just be physiologically limiting..Which I think has a greater impact on kill #'s than people think. All this then saying...... hey please open your lands and yards to us, we need your help... I can hear the collective FY's ringing across the state especially from those non hunting....bird watchers...lol

Well this is interesting about the apples because I hunt in close proximity to them and based on my limited perspective the deer don't seem particularly interested in them this fall. 

I wonder what long term impact hunting has on deer activity. Meaning: Deer that tend to come out more during the day tend not to live as long (probably). if this is any sort of behavior they pass down to offspring, behaviorally or genetically, perhaps over time deer would become more nocturnal as a species in an area that is hunted. Course, they've been hunted for a long time so maybe any such impact was baked into the cake centuries ago.

[Elmo]

3 hours ago, Core said:

I wonder if this is going to be a lean year on harvests compared to last, even though last winter was warm. I'm almost 20 hunts in a row striking out. I'll be out another 4-6 times and I expect I will continue to pull nothing. I see fresh sign all the time but the deer are completely evaporated from where I can hunt come day time. Just no activity at all; gone.

I saw tons of action in October and then the snow storm we had during the gun opener and I haven't seen anything since.  What's even crazier.  Parks that are normally over run by hunters and I didn't see a single car after opening weekend.  Even the hunters disappeared.  How does that happen?  Did everyone tag out and decimated the deer population during bow season?

[Fletch]

I have really noticed that bow season has had a huge effect in the past few years. On the state lands I hunt the presure is so heavy from bow hunting most deer are nocturnal before gun even starts. The rut is the only thing that gets them going for a bit then the gun opener shock shuts that down quick. I see more vehicles out during bow than gun now except that first weekend and Thanksgiving. I need to adapt better even if I am an old dog!

[growalot]

What they pass down to off spring is movement patterns...which is why taking out that herd leader can have a big impact on your hunting land if she was the one teaching the rest to move through your property at good times. When there are many properties and your just one of those with other hunters shooting deer on boarding lands...chances are she will be taken out and early. Then if you have places like Curmudgeon and I ,and I think most do...,you run the risk of a "sanctuary" doe taking the lead...or a doe that had an arrow flung at her unsuccessfully, spooked in the morning or night with movement ...Where the doe are the buck tend to go past mid Oct..The doe I saw during limited shooting hours, were meticulous in how they stayed in heavy brush to move... Genetics no but learned  herd behavior yes and it is past down  knowledge be it good or bad for hunters. They adapt period.

[Core]

32 minutes ago, Elmo said:

I saw tons of action in October and then the snow storm we had during the gun opener and I haven't seen anything since.  What's even crazier.  Parks that are normally over run by hunters and I didn't see a single car after opening weekend.  Even the hunters disappeared.  How does that happen?  Did everyone tag out and decimated the deer population during bow season?

I scored gold on the first day of bow. But then throughout the rest of the season saw almost nothing, of any sort. I met a guy last weekend walking into the public land i go to and he said that he and his brother normally pull a deer out but haven't been able to yet, and that he's heard other guys complaining as well. I think "archery" season is becoming more popular and certainly it must have some impact on the prevalence of deer left over by gun.

[landtracdeerhunter]

It's funny how different it is across the state.  We don't fire a shot for a week to ten days after Southern zone firearms season begins. 

[DirtTime]

The state trying to do some crazy crap to force people who own land to allow hunters is ridiculous. Many hunters who own private land put out food plots and other land management to keep deer in the area. They will never stand for any sort of 'laws' allowing anyone with a tag to get access to the land they pay for and pay taxes on. Would anyone who owns land agree to such terms? I doubt it. I wouldn't If I owned my own land. I wouldn't what NYS state says, I own the land, you step a tip of a toenail on it, you are trespassing!

 

It's funny, so many saying they aren't seeing deer anymore, yet we have some nice late season kills in the harvest threads. Some even came from...PUBLIC LAND! Maybe you should put a trail/cell cam on every tree in the woods you hunt. That way you won't miss anything. Better idea, get an IPad with lots of memory, buy a live satellite thermal imaging app,, and you can walk right up on them no matter where you hunt.

 

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I'm not big into trail cams because I don't need them but I do run a couple around the house and they can be fun. My cousin that I have the camp with in the ADKS runs about 12 up there from July-last day of rifle and of the 70 or 80 deer pics he got 3 were in daylight. Those deer aren't hunted enough to make any difference. The fact is deer are mostly nocturnal. I think a lot of people put too much into the "deer go nocturnal" argument.


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[Doc]

18 hours ago, Elmo said:

I saw tons of action in October and then the snow storm we had during the gun opener and I haven't seen anything since.  What's even crazier.  Parks that are normally over run by hunters and I didn't see a single car after opening weekend.  Even the hunters disappeared.  How does that happen?  Did everyone tag out and decimated the deer population during bow season?

Hunting has become a one day event for a lot of hunters these days. In some cases it is a half-day annual event. The days of the overflowing state land parking lots and the lines of cars parked along the roads seems to have ended. I imagine that depends on where you hunt, but around my neck of the woods, that's the way it has been for quite a few years.

You know, we are so busy patting ourselves on the back for our improving safety records. I think it is simply that we are having fewer shootings because there are fewer hunters actually out there actively hunting.

[bugsNbows]

Here's my take... I'm just grateful to still be able to get out and hunt. NBD (one way or the other) if I shoot something or not. We were lucky this year and harvested 3 bucks... last year only one small doe. That's just the way it is. 

[chrisw]

The state trying to do some crazy crap to force people who own land to allow hunters is ridiculous. Many hunters who own private land put out food plots and other land management to keep deer in the area. They will never stand for any sort of 'laws' allowing anyone with a tag to get access to the land they pay for and pay taxes on. Would anyone who owns land agree to such terms? I doubt it. I wouldn't If I owned my own land. I wouldn't what NYS state says, I own the land, you step a tip of a toenail on it, you are trespassing!
 
It's funny, so many saying they aren't seeing deer anymore, yet we have some nice late season kills in the harvest threads. Some even came from...PUBLIC LAND! Maybe you should put a trail/cell cam on every tree in the woods you hunt. That way you won't miss anything. Better idea, get an IPad with lots of memory, buy a live satellite thermal imaging app,, and you can walk right up on them no matter where you hunt.
 
 

I don't think anyone was saying a law that would mandate public access to hunters to anyone's private land, I think it was implied that there would be an incentive to the landowner that allows it. A reduced tax rate would be a logical step that comes to mind first for me. I don't think that would open up all sorts of property to the public but surely wouldn't hurt anything either.

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[chrisw]

I believe you will see a lower take this year, mostly during the firearms season simply because the weather has been miserable for the most part. I don't gun hunt much as I don't thoroughly enjoy it anymore but I can tell you that there have been quite a few instances where the weather made up my mind for me. Couple that with low deer/high dmp allocations in some areas and you'll see lower harvest numbers undoubtedly. But in the end, I believe the weather will have the biggest impact, more so on the hunters end, than the deer.

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[Five Seasons]

I could be posting a totally different tune if I arrowed one of several close calls on bucks this year. But what surprised me was the lack of young bucks and doe on my property. I probably gun hunted more than usual not having anything in the freezer but even my father agreed that siting was down. Specifically on my place, they left a lot of standing corn. Planted more than usual and didn't cut till after gun opened. Coupled with some really tough weather weekends/holidays and some new additional pressure we've realized that just all the conditions were against us. My dad shot a beautiful 10 and I have a mature doe in the freezer but a lot of our pics are now almost exclusively at night. We have tons of doe, but they seem to know where no hunting is allowed. I'm not sure how the DEC can ever fix this issue and people will still bitch when they whack them with their cars... but when you have over hunting on the land that's accessible and no hunting on land that isn't... we end up exactly with the issues we have right now.

[Core]

19 hours ago, ....rob said:

The state trying to do some crazy crap to force people who own land to allow hunters is ridiculous. Many hunters who own private land put out food plots and other land management to keep deer in the area. They will never stand for any sort of 'laws' allowing anyone with a tag to get access to the land they pay for and pay taxes on. Would anyone who owns land agree to such terms? I doubt it. I wouldn't If I owned my own land. I wouldn't what NYS state says, I own the land, you step a tip of a toenail on it, you are trespassing!

That would be crazy, which is probably why nobody has even hinted at it.

[Core]

9 minutes ago, Belo said:

I could be posting a totally different tune if I arrowed one of several close calls on bucks this year. But what surprised me was the lack of young bucks and doe on my property. I probably gun hunted more than usual not having anything in the freezer but even my father agreed that siting was down. Specifically on my place, they left a lot of standing corn. Planted more than usual and didn't cut till after gun opened. Coupled with some really tough weather weekends/holidays and some new additional pressure we've realized that just all the conditions were against us. My dad shot a beautiful 10 and I have a mature doe in the freezer but a lot of our pics are now almost exclusively at night. We have tons of doe, but they seem to know where no hunting is allowed. I'm not sure how the DEC can ever fix this issue and people will still bitch when they whack them with their cars... but when you have over hunting on the land that's accessible and no hunting on land that isn't... we end up exactly with the issues we have right now.

That house I mentioned earlier in the thread? Drove by last night and saw 6-7 deer mulling about on this guy's lawn. I cursed out loud!

I was also driving through the heart of Penfield today at lunch and saw a massive doe--one of four--grazing in a small plot of trees between a guy's house and a gas station. I turned around and parked next to them. This caused one to lazily run off and the big one looked at me for 20 seconds then back to rooting around in the snow.