Do You Support Crossbow Full Inclusion into the NY Archery Season?

[tughillmcd]

17 minutes ago, grampy said:

If this is true, I hope you are shooting a traditional bow. "how can I get the benefits of archery season with the least amount of dedication and work"  As the dedication and work to shoot a compound is nothing, compared to trad bows.  

 

35 minutes ago, Buck_shooter said:

There are exceptions to everything but I see most of this as nothing more than entitlement. Kind of like "how can I get the benefits of archery season with the least amount of dedication and work?" I think archery season is something that should be worked for and earned, not just given to everyone who thinks they should be involved. If it's truly not that different from modern archery, why not just shoot a vertical bow? And before I get the arguments about being physically unable, I said there are exceptions and I do believe everyone should have the "opportunity" to enjoy all seasons. But able bodied individuals who chose not to put forth the effort for whatever reason should not be entitled to be involved. 

And I hope he doesn't hunt from a tree stand, use cover scents, camo clothing, deer lure, game camera etc. You need to learn to read the woods, scout with your eyes, and understand the wind. In 1956 when the first NY bow season was created, this is how the tradition was born. No carbon fiber arrows. and most people had to learn to make their own arrows, and fletch them. There is nothing left today that even resembles the origins of the sport.

[tughillmcd]

5 minutes ago, growalot said:

leave the restrictions 

 

Why leave the restrictions? A compound crossbow shooting 185 lb draw can achieve 455 fps where a recurve at 290 lbs is only 405 fps. What good does a 200 lb draw weight do in slowing crossbow superiority as you stated before it does?

[tughillmcd]

8 minutes ago, growalot said:

MANDATORY BOW COURSE

As for the mandatory bow course, NYCC has always pushed for that. It is certain legislators and NYB that do now want crossbows to use the bow privilege, which inorder to purchase, requires a bow course. 

All legislation since 2012 has included using a bow privilege to make sure everyone has to have taken the bow class. there is too much difference between harvesting a deer with a broadhead and a bullet. That info is taught in the bow class! 

[growalot]

First you tell me why it's imperative for you to get them eliminated...Other than some people like more expensive toys than other... Now I find you mentioning only the draw weights and speed in your reply, not the limb nor length requirements interesting,perhaps telling.

If they are in archery season  then let them produce similar kinetic energy as a bow. Which BTW is still impossible they are already far superior in that....let's keep them at least somewhat on an even playing field and yes length and limb configuration makes a difference.

http://www.bowhuntingmag.com/bow-reviews/crossbows-vs-compounds-comparing-apples-to-apples/

[BigVal]

Ok we're not talking about camo , treestands, cameras, we're talking about crossbows. The reason so many people are against this is the simple reason that you don't have to draw the bow back when a shot opportunity presents itself. It's that simple. Cover scents have ZERO to do with that. Yes a compound bow is easier to hunt with Than traditional equipment, but you still draw the bow back and hold it back before you shoot. 

I'm already changing my opinion a bit I used to think it would result in far more deer being killed, but I'm not positive that's true. 

[Doc]

33 minutes ago, tughillmcd said:

FYI, This is not the DEC's doing. DEC support's full inclusion crossbow as stated in their last Deer Management study. The laws need to be changed to allow DEC to put into effect any expansion of crossbow use.

Just Sayin!

Yes that's the exact logic that prompted the DEC to push for an early muzzleloading season about a decade ago. I assume you were for that too. Care to give up a couple weeks of bow/crossbow season so the DEC can get a much more efficient weapon shoehorned in?

[tughillmcd]

18 minutes ago, BigVal said:

Ok we're not talking about camo , treestands, cameras, we're talking about crossbows. The reason so many people are against this is the simple reason that you don't have to draw the bow back when a shot opportunity presents itself. It's that simple. Cover scents have ZERO to do with that. Yes a compound bow is easier to hunt with Than traditional equipment, but you still draw the bow back and hold it back before you shoot. 

I'm already changing my opinion a bit I used to think it would result in far more deer being killed, but I'm not positive that's true. 

Length and width are arbitrary numbers. Length is there to prevent crossbow pistols, which don't have the necessary energy to do the job. As for width, what difference does it make if it is 13 or 17 inches wide? 

I talked about max draw weight because that is what produces the energy in recurve crossbows, as it does in traditional equipment. Width is no different than axle to axle on compounds. The short riser compounds of today are achievable even 5 years ago, but that technology continues to evolve too. No matter what, arrows are all subsonic projectiles. The have similar flight trajectories and the KE is not that far off. 

KE is also not as important with an arrow as a bullet, as the arrow is not looking for knock down power. but for penetration, it is killing by hemorrhage, where KE in a bullet has a greater effect on the because bullets kill by shock, not hemorrhage.

As for the deer numbers being killed, Ohio has had full inclusion crossbow for 40 years. It was only a year or 2 ago that crossbow take equaled vertical bows. And they also have no more accidents with crossbows over vertical bows, nor do they see any increase in wounding rates than vertical bows. 

My point about the other items involved today over even 20 years ago. Hunting in general has changes over time, and will continue. Even though you have to draw and hold the bow, the other technologies have increased the effectiveness of the hunt over the years. Crossbows will become part of that evolution someday, and everyone will go on doing what they do, and hunting as they choose, and very little will change. 

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, NYBowhunter said:

Im baffled that some hunters get so upset and try to present an argument against allowing crossbows, youth season etc...i dont see how another weapon type would offend or ruin my hunting. Its like choosing to shoot a muzzleloader  during regular gun season , who cares. Guess as i get older, the means to the kill is less important to me. For me the end result is the same, meat in the freezer, enjoying nature and most important is sharing that full circle with family.  Let people enjoy a crossbow during archery, yes i agree they are easier to shoot then a vertical. I say have at it, life is way too short. 

 

we're not as angry as you think. I get the impression some of you think the opponents are sitting behind our keyboards with spittle flying and yelling out loud. I'm just killing time because i can't focus today and i have an opinion. if i had to vote, i'd vote against. if it gets in anyhow, i wont lose any sleep, just like i didn't when they were introduced to part of the season.

 

1 hour ago, growalot said:

Here's my final word..Hey NYS DEC I'm sitting here in 8N ...you know, where you want all those doe dead. Well I could have filled a tag opening day...But I had to hold at full draw so long having gotten busted by the does BB that my arm gave out...tsk,tsk,tsk ,tsk had I been using my cross bow...one dead doe....hhhmmmm

 

you keep Damion out of this! 

[Buckmaster7600]

1) Do you support Full Inclusion of Crossbows into the NY Bow Season? No
2) Do you want to see the arbitrary restrictions on Draw Weight and Limb Width removed? No
3) Do you believe crossbows should be permitted to be used by everyone in all Archery Only areas? No
4) Do you believe we should be using the Bow Privilege instead of the Muzzleloader Privilege? Yes
5) Are you a current 2018 NYCC Member? No

1 no
2 yes
3 yes
4 yes
5 no

Don't want full inclusion and own 3 Xbows. I think it's perfect the way it is minus the arbitrary rules. I wonk kick and scream if full inclusion comes but I won't support it getting there.


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[Otto]

I'm not trying to derail the conversation regarding crossbow vs. compound.....but I have been a member of the NYCC for 3 years.  If you have a few minutes, please go to their website and review their other policy positions - I am sure you will find some you agree with, and some you do not agree with.  The crossbow inclusion position is only one of about 30 other positions they are advocating.   Hopefully you will find an abundance of positions you agree with and become a member.  

The website is www.nyscc.com. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Otto

[Jmp209]

I tend to lean towards keeping things the way they are. Personally I don't see any benefit to full inclusion in the area of the state that I hunt and have been against the use of crossbows in archery season. I have friends that hunt with crossbows but they have yet to convince me of the cause. At this point I will neither fight for or against. I've shot crossbows at targets and for what it's worth, they were kind of boring to me.

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[nyslowhand]

11 hours ago, tughillmcd said:

FYI, This is not the DEC's doing. DEC support's full inclusion crossbow as stated in their last Deer Management study. 

The NY DEC Whitetail Mgmt Plan for 2012-2016...? That was written in the 2009/10 timeframe by Cornell's Dept of Natural Resources for the DEC. Please reference any support shown by the DEC for Xbows since. I've never seen any!?! If they actually did, wouldn't that have gone a long way in possibly swaying the previous year's proposed legislation to include Xbows in bow season?? JMO, but solely depending on Cumo's endorsement hasn't worked with this political "hot potato".

[tughillmcd]

10 hours ago, Otto said:

I'm not trying to derail the conversation regarding crossbow vs. compound.....but I have been a member of the NYCC for 3 years.  If you have a few minutes, please go to their website and review their other policy positions - I am sure you will find some you agree with, and some you do not agree with.  The crossbow inclusion position is only one of about 30 other positions they are advocating.   Hopefully you will find an abundance of positions you agree with and become a member.  

The website is www.nyscc.com. 

Otto,

Your link is to the New York State Conservation Council or NYSCC 
NYCC is the New York Crossbow Coalition. NYCC's web site is nycrossbowcoalition.com We only have ONE Position!

[Otto]

Oh....sorry about that!  TMDA!   Too Many Damn Acronyms! 

Well, if it means anything the NYS Conservation Council also endorses full inclusion.

I will take a look at the NY Crossbow Coalition as well.  

[Buck_shooter]

17 hours ago, tughillmcd said:

 

And I hope he doesn't hunt from a tree stand, use cover scents, camo clothing, deer lure, game camera etc. You need to learn to read the woods, scout with your eyes, and understand the wind. In 1956 when the first NY bow season was created, this is how the tradition was born. No carbon fiber arrows. and most people had to learn to make their own arrows, and fletch them. There is nothing left today that even resembles the origins of the sport.

I still can't rest my modern bow on a shooting rail and wait for a deer to walk in to range and then just squeeze the trigger to take a shot. But other than that, yeah a crossbow is pretty much exactly a bow. It's so close that I don't even see why anyone would waste the money to buy one if they've already got a decent vertical bow.

[growalot]

Because sometimes your body doesn't always do what your mind wants it to.....I have a great vertical bow but as I age the old body isn't as good as the bow and that should not keep me out of the woods doing what I enjoy doing...even if I have to limit that time.

[WNYBuckHunter]

41 minutes ago, Buck_shooter said:

I still can't rest my modern bow on a shooting rail and wait for a deer to walk in to range and then just squeeze the trigger to take a shot. But other than that, yeah a crossbow is pretty much exactly a bow. It's so close that I don't even see why anyone would waste the money to buy one if they've already got a decent vertical bow.

Well if you know exactly where the deer are gonna go every single time, then there’s no challenge to it regardless of what weapon you use. Where I hunt, they don’t typically do that, and even with a gun (which is a lot less bulky than a crossbow), once deer get within 50 yards, it’s a bit of a challenge to move at the right times to get the gun up and on target. Same deal with a crossbow. You may not have to draw it with the deer right there, but you still need to know how and when to move to get it on target. The one advantage you have is that you don’t have to hold back the draw weight. 

As far as why would someone want a crossbow when they have a vertical bow goes. Variety is the spice of life. Same reason a person would have multiple guns. I don’t know about you, but the same thing day in and day out gets boring to me. I like to mix things up now and then. The way it stands now, I’ll probably hunt with my vertical bow till crossbow starts, then I’ll hunt with my crossbow till gun opens because I only have a couple of weeks to use it. If it was included in all of Archery season, I’d be switching what I took into the woods depending on how I felt that day or what stand I’m sitting in. 

[Merlot]

Create an archery(x-bow) class and get certified before allowing person to buy x-bow. OK by me to hunt with them. Corral the compound/traditional people with the x-bow and hunt and lets move on.

[WNYBuckHunter]

They should have to take the bow course, just like someone that hunts with a vertical bow. No need for a special course. 

[Robhuntandfish]

i have a crossbow and there is def a big difference.  If archery season was opened up with all crossbow, would be hard not to always take the crossbow.  It has a scope and i can shoot touching arrows out to 50 yards.  I am pretty good with the bow and I shoot a lot but cant rival that range or accuracy I dont even try to with the compound.  But its not even close for ease of use.  No drawing or finding pins or correct form or holding the draw or even waiting to draw til the exact right moment and a quicker shot window ......put the crosshairs on and shoot.   One I got last year with crossbow also only went 30 yards and fell over in a pile. But i really like the seasons the way they are set up and I will hunt them anyway i can but would be hard to leave that crossbow home 

[Merlot]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

They should have to take the bow course, just like someone that hunts with a vertical bow. No need for a special course. 

As long as the x-bow portion of the training is worked into the existing curriculum, that's fine.

[Buck_shooter]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Well if you know exactly where the deer are gonna go every single time, then there’s no challenge to it regardless of what weapon you use. Where I hunt, they don’t typically do that, and even with a gun (which is a lot less bulky than a crossbow), once deer get within 50 yards, it’s a bit of a challenge to move at the right times to get the gun up and on target. Same deal with a crossbow. You may not have to draw it with the deer right there, but you still need to know how and when to move to get it on target. The one advantage you have is that you don’t have to hold back the draw weight. 

As far as why would someone want a crossbow when they have a vertical bow goes. Variety is the spice of life. Same reason a person would have multiple guns. I don’t know about you, but the same thing day in and day out gets boring to me. I like to mix things up now and then. The way it stands now, I’ll probably hunt with my vertical bow till crossbow starts, then I’ll hunt with my crossbow till gun opens because I only have a couple of weeks to use it. If it was included in all of Archery season, I’d be switching what I took into the woods depending on how I felt that day or what stand I’m sitting in. 

To me, not holding any weight back or drawing is the game changer. For me personally that is the dividing line for what I consider archery. I'll make no arguments as to what the definition of archery is or wether a crossbow meets the dictionary's definition. There are many people that I think should be allowed to use crossbows for physical reasons but there are many more that I see just trying to buy their way into a season that they feel they are entitled to participate in. Full inclusion would help many people who deserve the use of crossbow but also caters to slob hunters who will put forth little to no effort. I don't think that's a good compromise. Unfortunately there's good and bad with all changes. I will just continue to roll with the punches.

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 minutes ago, Buck_shooter said:

To me, not holding any weight back or drawing is the game changer. For me personally that is the dividing line for what I consider archery. I'll make no arguments as to what the definition of archery is or wether a crossbow meets the dictionary's definition. There are many people that I think should be allowed to use crossbows for physical reasons but there are many more that I see just trying to buy their way into a season that they feel they are entitled to participate in. Full inclusion would help many people who deserve the use of crossbow but also caters to slob hunters who will put forth little to no effort. I don't think that's a good compromise. Unfortunately there's good and bad with all changes. I will just continue to roll with the punches.

There are already plenty of slob bowhunters in the woods that dont practice properly, dont take care of their equipment, etc. They are going to hunt regardless of what you think about them because they took the course and bought the tags, so they are in fact, entitled to participate. Why not put a weapon in their hands that they can make a good, ethical shot with?

 

[Buck_shooter]

11 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

There are already plenty of slob bowhunters in the woods that dont practice properly, dont take care of their equipment, etc. They are going to hunt regardless of what you think about them because they took the course and bought the tags, so they are in fact, entitled to participate. Why not put a weapon in their hands that they can make a good, ethical shot with?

 

There are definitely plenty of them out there and there's unfortunately nothing that will change that but inclusion would be giving them a reward for being incompetent. And I don't mean to lump all crossbow hunters into that category because I know that is not the case but I don't think it's right to make it easier for someone who doesn't want to make an attempt to be proficient.

[Trial153]

nope don't support it and I make sure I tell my representives that I don't support during the archery season.

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