can you explain why hunters would want to shorten gun season?

[Rack Attack]

28 minutes ago, Just Lucky said:

The talk of western states and big bucks and how we should follow their example makes me wonder how quickly baiting would become legal and the diseases that can come with that.

The diseases you are referring to are related to shared water and parasites, not baiting...  Plenty of states allow some form of attraction without disease (ie. EHD, blue tong, CWD, ect).  But, that's another discussion.

[Five Seasons]

something many fail to understand about the midwest is the population of humans. There's like 3 nfl teams not including chicago. We have 3 just in one state. When I hunted MS the land was just vast. tons of farms, tons of woods. You're not comparing apples to apples with NY. You never can.

[wfmiller]

13 hours ago, Death From Above said:

Oh my, please tell me that was a joke.  Genetics are genetics, you are born with them.  They don't suddenly change or appear at a certain age.  You can see better with age what they contain, but older deer don't always have better genetics.  I'm sorry, but if that wasn't a joke it ironically contained the least common sense possible.

You are making my point, thank you!

[Nomad]

2 hours ago, Belo said:

something many fail to understand about the midwest is the population of humans. There's like 3 nfl teams not including chicago. We have 3 just in one state. When I hunted MS the land was just vast. tons of farms, tons of woods. You're not comparing apples to apples with NY. You never can.

Yes ! I have a friend in Montana , I've hunted there , the 2 mile section of river bottom we hunt , we seldom see another Hunter . The state is what 4 times the size of NY with I'd guess  at least 10 times the land to,hunt and fewer hunters and  very few roads , miles and  miles  of crops . I don't recall ever hearing a gun shot that wasn't ours .

One spot he hunts you can see 300 deer a day ! But few hunters .

When I brought my deer to " town" I drove 80 MPH for like an hour and saw a hand full of cars / trucks on the road .

I remember telling him I have more bowhunters within a 100 mile radius then He has in the whole state .

[nycredneck]

I understand the fact that some hunters can't get out and have the same ability/time to hunt what with work and family, so a longer season may work for them .  When I was single, I scouted all summer until opening archery season and had great success. Once married with a wife,  house and children that all went out the window. I had no property and no time to drive from NYC to my public grounds.  It does help the deer management perspective , so when I did have the time I would agree, but with limited time I disagree. That said the antler restrictions are already managing the herd so I like a longer season for myself... but I NEVER gun hunt .. BOW only! My 2 cents.

[G-Man]

The  biggest thing people miss is other states that do not have a long gun season do not have gun during the rut.. Far to many bucks are taken.. N.Y. is only state the gun season falls in the rut(at least the tail end) . No other animal is hunted with gun during the breeding season.. April is prime breeding for turkey here not may..its why you have birds gobbling their heads off just before season.

So shortning the season would only really help if it is not during the rut.

[chas0218]

16 hours ago, Just Lucky said:

The talk of western states and big bucks and how we should follow their example makes me wonder how quickly baiting would become legal and the diseases that can come with that.

I don't think baiting will ever be legal in NY it is too much of gamble with CWD and other diseases. Being that NY had one case of CWD a few years ago.

[Nomad]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

The  biggest thing people miss is other states that do not have a long gun season do not have gun during the rut.. Far to many bucks are taken.. N.Y. is only state the gun season falls in the rut(at least the tail end) . No other animal is hunted with gun during the breeding season.. April is prime breeding for turkey here not may..its why you have birds gobbling their heads off just before season.

So shortning the season would only really help if it is not during the rut.

Montana's gun season runs Sept 15 to the end of Nov .That hits the rut pretty good .

[gunner1]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:41 AM, steve863 said:

To HELL with that idea!!  In the past 10 or so years in the Catskill region where I've generally hunted, I've seen antler restrictions implemented, you have slim chances of drawing a doe permit and now they want to shorten the gun season?  Maybe someone can give me a good reason why I should even buy a hunting license at all?   And please, I don't want anyone giving me the BS that I should go out and start bowhunting where I could use the tag on a doe.   Why should only bowhunters get the privilege of taking a doe?  And of course shortening the gun season would also probably benefit bowhunters more than anyone else.  Sure as hell ain't benefiting the gun hunters!!

 

 

BINGO!!!

[J.B.]

14 minutes ago, Stay at home Nomad said:

Montana's gun season runs Sept 15 to the end of Nov .That hits the rut pretty good .

Montana is tough to compare to. They have 1/5 of the hunters of NYS and the state is almost 3 times as large. Also, the state only took about 50,000 deer last year compared to NYS's 200,000. So NYS has less land that we are taking more deer from. Montana may not have to worry as much about managing the deer herd. 

[Five Seasons]

33 minutes ago, J.B. said:

Montana is tough to compare to. They have 1/5 of the hunters of NYS and the state is almost 3 times as large. Also, the state only took about 50,000 deer last year compared to NYS's 200,000. So NYS has less land that we are taking more deer from. Montana may not have to worry as much about managing the deer herd. 

as nomad pointed out it's not just that the land is greater, you really need to look at public huntable land. Half our state is urban and isn't even huntable, let alone public.

[chas0218]

On 11/16/2017 at 7:39 AM, Fletch said:

Lol now PA is a successful trophy state lol!!

 

At least comparing NY to PA makes some since. It has high hunter density and a lot of different terrain comparable to NY. Comparing NY to a mid west or west state is less than relevant, it is a waste of time. Not even apples to oranges more like apples to drywall!

 

I will for sure say NY has room to improve but you are missing the fact it is already improving and quite rapidly!! Look at the stats the past 10 years! This is in areas without ars too.

 

You also miss the real problems. NY deer management is becoming more controlled by politicians than biologists, NY does not put enough cash into DEC, we are always short staffed in officers, biologists and day to day DEC staff.

 

Your stance NY is the worst is ludicrous. Just because you find it on the internet don’t mean it’s true! I tell my kids that constantly!!

 

Try VT, ME, NH, FL,AZ, NM, CA, CT, MA, DE.......for whitetail or a number of other states that might or might not match up with an individuals requirements.

 

You two have the personal opinion and that’s cool. I think it’s ok and getting better. The hunting not NY lol.

 

Oh and to the original ?, I think bow should end say 5 days earlier and gun start 5 days later. That will give a 10 day cool off during rut and before gun. Except in overpopulated zones. Maybe keep doe open in those and it will bring in folks from non open zones to help.

 

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I will tell you I hunt the southern tier of NY border about 15 miles as a crows flys I see and have seen more mature deer in PA than NY. They may not be a trophy state but as mentioned earlier they went at it the wrong way. You can place blame on whoever you want but they screwed up in PA. Now that there is so much more research and long term results there is no reason they can't adapt a more feasible deer management plan in NY.

If you want to compare apples to apples then take Wisconsin and Ohio and compare their management plans to NY. They are closest in terrain, weather, and habitat. In the southern 15 miles of NY there is less ag forage but still has plenty of forage comparing to Ohio and Wisconsin. Both of which are known for quality whitetails. Have you ever hunted Ohio or other states to compare? We could use Minnesota but they have a shorter ag growing season and just as much if not less ag available in that state. There are trophy buck states that compare to NY don't bury your head in the sand.

Minnesota and Wisconsin have one buck rules and really restrict the take of doe in certain areas. I think NY could benefit from a lot of things hunting wise but they won't listen to hunters, the one opinion that should matter.

Edited November 17, 2017 by chas0218

[chas0218]

@steve863 They shouldn't have any either sex permits and put those into the DMP lottery. That is the only way to properly manage the number of doe in the state. 

[moog5050]

21 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

I will tell you I hunt the southern tier of NY border about 15 miles as a crows flys I see and have seen more mature deer in PA than NY. They may not be a trophy state but as mentioned earlier they went at it the wrong way. You can place blame on whoever you want but they screwed up in PA. Now that there is so much more research and long term results there is no reason they can't adapt a more feasible deer management plan in NY.

If you want to compare apples to apples then take Wisconsin and Ohio and compare their management plans to NY. They are closest in terrain, weather, and habitat. In the southern 15 miles of NY there is less ag forage but still has plenty of forage comparing to Ohio and Wisconsin. Both of which are known for quality whitetails. Have you ever hunted Ohio or other states to compare? We could use Minnesota but they have a shorter ag growing season and just as much if not less ag available in that state. There are trophy buck states that compare to NY don't bury your head in the sand.

Minnesota and Wisconsin have one buck rules and really restrict the take of doe in certain areas. I think NY could benefit from a lot of things hunting wise but they won't listen to hunters, the one opinion that should matter.

Pretty sure WI does not have a one buck rule.

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, Stay at home Nomad said:

Montana's gun season runs Sept 15 to the end of Nov .That hits the rut pretty good .

And they only have 100 I hunters..they need to take as many as possible na sits not a Midwest trophy state that everone keeps comparing us to

[chas0218]

5 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Pretty sure WI does not have a one buck rule.

Must not have read their regs right I thought it was 1 buck for archery or gun.

[G-Man]

Here is biggest issue. Out seasons are not run by biologists it is run by politicial votes.. Stop complaining about Dec not doing it's job it's an environmental organization that was also give task of enforcing game laws!!!! ..

Demand a constutional amendment for the right to hunt and fish to be goverend by game department!! Only then will nys be able to effectively manage herd and herd health. Until that is done you are not comparing Apple's to Apple's..plain and simple.

[moog5050]

11 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Must not have read their regs right I thought it was 1 buck for archery or gun.

Think its one and one like here.  Many guys on huntingbeast (mostly WI hunters) seem to get two slammers a year.  One of the big differences is that WI has vast public lands with high density unlike new York which has vast public lands (ADK and catskills) mostly with low density.

Edited November 17, 2017 by moog5050

[chas0218]

21 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Think its one and one like here.  Many guys on huntingbeast (mostly WI hunters) seem to get two slammers a year.  Once of the big differences is that WI has vast public lands with high density unlike new York which has vast public lands (ADK and catskills) mostly with low density.

They have much more public land access than NY as well. I'm pretty sure the doe tag lottery is different for public than private lands. Either way managing the deer population with either sex tags is bad practice, and is a contributing factor to less densities all over the state. Being that their deer densities are higher it would be NY should be a 1 buck state at least until the numbers come up. Their terrain and habitat are similar to NY so we should be similar in deer densities being that we aren't there's something wrong with the way we manage our deer herds. There are about 100,000 less licenses sold in NY than WI so hunter density is a little less in NY. All things considered there should be more quality deer in NY if better managed.

 

EDIT: I do want to say that WI does have an 8 day gun season, just putting that out there.

Edited November 17, 2017 by chas0218

[Hunter007]

I think you see less big  bucks here because of  more hunters per sq miles and more pouching.  Probably seems like I always here a ton of shots before and after legal light and Season . 

My dad use to joke want to see the deer go look in the local  farmers barns . Don't know if there is any truth to that . But probably farmers can get special nuisance permit for deer as well .

[Buckmaster7600]

I don't think we can compare NY to the Midwest because it's too different. I have hunted the Midwest for 10 years now and the biggest difference is the bucks. I have huge parcels of private land to hunt in NY. And hunt the Adirondacks. Both have little to no hunting pressure. Most Mature NY bucks are ghosts that do 99. ...% of their daily activities in the cover of darkness. A mature Midwest buck acts like a king and spend way more time on their feet in daylight. I don't have scientific evidence of this but on my lease in Ohio from oct 1-the first week of January my trail cam pics of mature bucks are about 50-50 day/night pics. In NY even in the Adirondacks where most bucks don't see a hunter all season if I get 20 pics of mature bucks there might be 1 daylight pic. Around home I get a lot more pics of buck but still have a handful of daylight pics.

In Ohio the mature bucks are usually the first ones out in a food plot or field that simply doesn't happen in my 20 years of hunting NY.


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[Hunter007]

4 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I don't think we can compare NY to the Midwest because it's too different. I have hunted the Midwest for 10 years now and the biggest difference is the bucks. I have huge parcels of private land to hunt in NY. And hunt the Adirondacks. Both have little to no hunting pressure. Most Mature NY bucks are ghosts that do 99. ...% of their daily activities in the cover of darkness. A mature Midwest buck acts like a king and spend way more time on their feet in daylight. I don't have scientific evidence of this but on my lease in Ohio from oct 1-the first week of January my trail cam pics of mature bucks are about 50-50 day/night pics. In NY even in the Adirondacks where most bucks don't see a hunter all season if I get 20 pics of mature bucks there might be 1 daylight pic. Around home I get a lot more pics of buck but still have a handful of daylight pics.

In Ohio the mature bucks are usually the first ones out in a food plot or field that simply doesn't happen in my 20 years of hunting NY.


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So do you think if ones wants a bigger  buck in N.Y.  he would be better off tracking stalking or doing a drive then  spending time in tree stands and ground blinds since they are not going to move in the day . With out being pushed ?

[Buckmaster7600]

So do you think if ones wants a bigger  buck in N.Y.  he would be better off tracking stalking or doing a drive then  spending time in tree stands and ground blinds since they are not going to move in the day . With out being pushed ?

For the most part yes. I have only shot 9 bucks in NY from a a stand. All the rest were still hunting/tracking


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[HFBPA889]

I don't think we need a shorter season necessarily,  but a 1 buck limit each season.  I know that would be unpopular with some but it would help strengthen the balance of the herd.  Along with a 1 buck limit, there should be a late season doe only to help ensure doe tags have been filled. Buck to doe ratios are heavily skewed in most DMU's, we need balance the herd.

New York State consistently ranks as the worst state to kill mature deer.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.wideopenspaces.com/top-10-worst-deer-hunting-states/amp/

Edited November 19, 2017 by HFBPA889

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't think we need a shorter season necessarily,  but a 1 buck limit each season.  I know that would be unpopular with some but it would help strengthen the balance of the herd.  Along with a 1 buck limit, there should be a late season doe only to help ensure doe tags have been filled. Buck to doe ratios are heavily skewed in most DMU's, we need balance the herd.
New York State consistently ranks as the worst state to kill mature deer.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.wideopenspaces.com/top-10-worst-deer-hunting-states/amp/

How late is “late season? You want to protect bucks with a one buck rule but you have to be careful of putting a target in bucks that have shed antlers.