Moon Myths

[5.9cummins]

A interesting read. 

[MuzzyLoader]

As Arte Johnson would say, "Veerrrrrry interesting"  :-\

[nyslowhand]

Debates by hunters over when the whitetail rut is initiated has gone on for decades.

Also discussed on this forum at  least a couple of times last fall.

IMHO - Photoperoidism & weather are the major contributing factors.

Others swear the full moon following the fall equinox triggers the rut, Alshimer's Theroy.

To each their own believe, just be there when it happens.

What I found interesting in the article was that if implemented correctly QDM creates a shorter, but more intense rut.

I realize it is supposed to produce a healthier deer herd and better buck to doe ratios.

But how is a compressed rut better for the general hunting population that typically hunts weekends & holidays?

[Localqdm]

I like Alshiemer a lot, and he knows more about deer than I will ever understand.  BUT I think I got burned the last 2 yrs trying to follow his moon calendar.

[G-Man]

Well thats just it are they talking a rut in a well ballanced herd or just the average ny herd? Seems to me there is always some activity around halloween and again sometime during 1st 2 weeks in nov. Moon, no moon,cloudy or sunny.....

[nyantler]

I like Alshiemer a lot, and he knows more about deer than I will ever understand.  BUT I think I got burned the last 2 yrs trying to follow his moon calendar.

I am a fan of Charlies as well, but I never put much faith in the moon phase theory... I'm sure it has some validity and I know Charlie has done a lot of studies concerning it over several years... I just am not convinced that moon phase hunting it is reliable. It is interesting none the less

[WNYBuckHunter]

I like looking at the moon phase theory and comparing my observations to the predictions, but there is only 1 deer hunting theory that always works. The more time you are in the woods, the better chance you have. 

[growalot]

Hopefully with the new W.I.S.E. program and the trail cams I'll be able to finally put ?'s of validity to rest on his theory....But I agree with WNYBH...it's all in the time spent out there

[Larry]

To me the best time to hunt is Nov. 1st till the start of gun. With 10th - 20th being the best. I do think days with full moon are not as good as days with less moon light at night.

[MuzzyLoader]

I like looking at the moon phase theory and comparing my observations to the predictions, but there is only 1 deer hunting theory that always works. The more time you are in the woods, the better chance you have. 

You got it WNY... ya' can't kill deer from that livingroom chair!

[First-light]

I like looking at the moon phase theory and comparing my observations to the predictions, but there is only 1 deer hunting theory that always works. The more time you are in the woods, the better chance you have. 

Aint that the truth!

[phade]

But how is a compressed rut better for the general hunting population that typically hunts weekends & holidays?

More daytime activity = more shot opportunities.

[nyantler]

I like looking at the moon phase theory and comparing my observations to the predictions, but there is only 1 deer hunting theory that always works. The more time you are in the woods, the better chance you have. 

And that my friend.. is the rule I hunt by... ya can't kill a deer if yer sittin' home on the couch.

[Buckstopshere]

                                Actually, just after World War II, actually in 1946, a pair of biologists  working for the New York State Department of Conservation,...right here in NY state,  came up with a way  of determining when the rut or breeding time of whitetails was in prior fall by  creating a fetal measurement scale, and then creating a base scale of fetal development, a base timeline.

And that is where one of the problems occurs with measuring fetuses and determining breeding dates.

    Establishing "the base" is  an expensive and difficult enterprise on a couple levels because it required  that a number of does, that have  known conception dates, be sacrificed for science. The  captive doe with the known breeding date is killed on a certain date, the fetus taken out and measured. If two  fetuses were in the doe, their length was averaged. (Generally a buck fawn fetus is larger than a doe fawn fetus.) And the big question  is/was…the sample size large enough?

How many does is enough does, killed with  known conception dates to create a statistically relevant scale? 

    The  gestation period of a deer is about 200 days. Glenn H. Morton and E. L. Cheatum  used a sample of 17-measured fetus to construct their size/age chart. That’s  it. That’s all. Imagine how many fetuses fell in between those 17. And the  growth curve of a fetus is not constant, regular, even within the same range  and geography; determined by health of the doe, weather conditions, and size  variations. (Deer are not all the same size any more than people are.)

Think about it for a minute. Measure a human fetus...tell when it was conceived? Whoa...we know babies are different sizes...

Then, there is another "fly in the ointment."

    Other  biologists have their own fetal measurement/age study, including Hamilton,  Tobin, and Moore with a southern strain of whitetail, C. Short in Michigan, and  R.A. Armstrong, also right here  in New York.

    And  there is a fairly decent correlation in the measurements of the whitetail fetus.

At 100  mm, or about two months along in the doe, Cheatum and Morton say the fetus was  conceived 54 days prior. Armstrong says the same 100 mm. fetus is 67 days old  (a difference of 13 days,) Short’s study in Michigan says it is 79 days along,  and Hamilton is pretty close to Armstrong with this one, saying it was fertilized  69 days prior.

    So with  such a variance in days, we start to scratch our heads. Look at the difference  between Cheatum and Short! Over three weeks difference in a two-month old  fetus. Not even close!

    That’s  one issue. We are looking for a prediction model that can get us to around a  week or so of the rut, right? If it’s off by up to three weeks, it doesn’t do  us much good, does it?

    By the  way, the sample size for the other three studies: Hamilton in 1985 opened up 64  does with known conception dates, Armstrong, 76, and Short, 21.

    And maybe the most significant (hinted at in the Moon Myth story,)...Measuring  a 100 mm fetus can be a problematical undertaking when checking for what they  call crown-to-rump measurements because the fetus are sometimes scrunched up  and sometimes stretched out. The techs (biologists) that measure these fetuses can vary in their  technique a bit (sometimes under physically trying situations) and therefore  skew the results (human error.)

    So it  doesn’t matter if a current study measures hundreds or even thousands of  fetuses in a study. What is the sample size of the does that were pregnant and the fetuses removed?  They are all put up against the same scale (or scales) determined by a  questionable sample size, which has a poor correlation in agreement with other  parallel studies.

    So how  is the moon theory doing with all this talk of fetal measurement? He’s OK. He’s  just beaming away.

    Study  after study has concluded that down through the years, if you average all the  fetal…but wait. How can we disprove the Moon theory, that is: that short-day  breeders such as whitetails, sheep, and other creatures such as turtles,  grunions and smallmouth bass all have internal clock genes timed by  photoperiodic (shortening day length) but fine-tuned by the brightness and  alternate darkness of the moon?

    As the  theory goes, light affects some critters more than others by striking the heart  of the pineal gland called the suprachiasmatic nucleus and releases melatonin.  (Even affects humans.) And melatonin has a depressing effect on certain  breeding hormones in whitetails and other short-day breeders like sheep. It is  only during the dark of the moon, when the melatonin wears off that the does  cycle and we notice the rut is on.

    It is  common for sheep breeders to use melatonin-soaked sponges, inserted in an ewe  to hold back estrus so that when the sponge is removed, all the ewes in the  herd will cycle at the same time, after a few days. Handy little thing if you  are a lamb breeder.

    A lot of  people discredit any theory that has anything to do with the moon because of  all the spooky (Halloween,) mushrooms, monsters and other myths associated with  the moon. And there are lots of reasons for that...

    My two scents:  The moon  is just a big rock that reflects sunlight that slightly skews the affect of  photoperiodism, that’s about it.

[Localqdm]

I understand the theory of moonlight affecting photoperiodism, (although I think it is so miniscule to the point of no visible affect).  I've wondered though, if the moon theory has any validity, wouldn't the daytime weather affect photoperiodism just as much?  I mean if you get a string of rainy cloudy weather in October/November vs bright sunny days, wouldn't that affect as much/more than the amount of light the moon could reflect. 

My experience has been last week of Oct through 1st week in Nov, and then right around the middle of Nov are always hot, moon or no moon.  Definitely not a 'late rut' last yr like predicted--in my observation.

[Buckstopshere]

Well, when you look at other critters that time their spawning and egg laying with the Full Moon, it makes us wonder how?

Bass time their spawning with the Full moon in May here in New York state. Grunions in California breed on the sands by the millions under the Full Moon, and deep sea turtles that live hundreds of miles from shore, swim in to lay their eggs under the Full Moon. Nobody really knows how it happens...Scientists talk about "clock genes" and "the internal clock." Personally, I don't think cloud cover has anything to do with it,  there is no correlation between cloud cover holding up a rut and sunny days accelerating it that I am aware of.

Some years I have seen the first week of November - dead. Nothing moving or happening in the deer woods, ditto with the last week of October. Years ago, I thought that the Rut always happened in the first week of November. Some years it does, but other years, the first week of November is in the middle of the infamous Lull.

I agree, last year was not a "late rut" as some predicted.

[Dave]

I understand the theory of moonlight affecting photoperiodism, (although I think it is so miniscule to the point of no visible affect).  I've wondered though, if the moon theory has any validity, wouldn't the daytime weather affect photoperiodism just as much?  I mean if you get a string of rainy cloudy weather in October/November vs bright sunny days, wouldn't that affect as much/more than the amount of light the moon could reflect. 

My experience has been last week of Oct through 1st week in Nov, and then right around the middle of Nov are always hot, moon or no moon.  Definitely not a 'late rut' last yr like predicted--in my observation.

I agree the last week in October and the first few days in November have been what had worked for me. I was looking for the late rut last year as predicted and it never materialized in my area. Think the moon phase was off last year.

Dave

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Best sentence in the whole article...."My results suggest that hunter effort is likely more responsible for buck harvest than any other single variable."

[erussell]

So youve got your birthers and your deathers, If you beleive the moon effects the rut than are you a mooner?