Deer management draft proposal recently released by the DEC.

[Dave]

If they were so concerned about the youth hunting programs they should be free.

Dave

[burmjohn]

Everyone that was so certain that the state believes that AR doesn't work and they do not want to implement  / expand it, why would they have this as part of their proposal?

Strategy 2.3.6: Beginning in the 2012 big game hunting season, expand the mandatory antler restriction area to include WMUs 3A, 4G, 4O, 4P, 4R, 4S, and 4W.

That's a simpe one.. they like everyone else that understands the concept realize that AR's do work for increasing the number of older bucks by saving the younger ones... and for those that hunt in those areas they have found that hunter satisfaction has increased... is the "3 on a side " rule the best AR standard.. I don't think so.. but it was a good start.

I agree, I'm in one of those places... Its not the best thing, but better then nada.

[erussell]

Everyone that was so certain that the state believes that AR doesn't work and they do not want to implement  / expand it, why would they have this as part of their proposal?

Strategy 2.3.6: Beginning in the 2012 big game hunting season, expand the mandatory antler restriction area to include WMUs 3A, 4G, 4O, 4P, 4R, 4S, and 4W.

I see alot of 3's and 4's how bout some sevens, someone roll me a 7s, 7r, and 7m please.

[orion]

Getting rid of antlerless tags and even any sex tags is a good thing that should have happened years ago. The state can't possibly manage the deer herd if you can shoot 3 doe just about anywhere in the state with no restrictions.  Hand out antlerless tags according to the need of each DMU. If the state isn't giving out DMP in a unit then their really is a reason not to shoot doe there!

The youth weekend will let kids get out there in better weather and in a time when the deer aren't going to go in hiding after the first day(hour). There hopefully be more sightings of deer and this is what keeps them interested and coming back. Its frustrating taking a kid out and trying to keep him interested in hunting when your not seeing any deer.

[Dave]

Even veteran hunters like to see deer even if it's not a shooter.

Dave

[covert]

It does seem odd that if they were going to implement a youth hunt it would be in the middle of bow season and not the last three days before gun opens.

What I personally would like to see is a week closed between the end of ST gun and the late muzzleloader season.  I don't really hunt ST gun but I always hunt late ML and it seems that I never see much activity the first four days or so after gun ends.  Moving the start of ML back even a few days would give them a chance to settle down a little.

One thing that has never made sense to me is the cost for an annual Bow, ML and trapping license is the same, but the Lifetime trapping is almost twice the cost of the Lifetime bow and ML.  Seems to me if having them the same cost yearly is good enough, then it should be good enough to have them the same in the Lifetime.

[sits in trees]

I hate to say it, but I think all these special "youth seasons" are very much grasping at straws. I think that everyone is hoping the future of hunting relies on holding special introductory seasons. I hope they do some good, but realistically, I believe that they are pretty much window dressing, and really don't address the real causes behind the low replacement rates in hunter populations. I don't for a minute believe that kids have no interest in hunting because they don't have a special time set aside for them. The real reasons are social, and until ways can be found to re-ignite youth interests in all outdoor activities and a genuine interest and enthusiasm in nature, all the rest of these experiments are most likely going to be wasted effort. Sure I suppose there is no harm in experimenting, but the hunting community should not start thinking that some special season is just the ticket for turning things around. I'm hoping that the powers that be are using their brain power on more than just this feeble activity.

It would be nice if there were a few school programs that attempt to make outdoor activities "cool" again and other things that encourage kids to appreciate all things natural. It also would be nice to try to indoctrinate parents into appreciating the mental and physical values of outdoor activities for their kids and themselves. Hiking, camping, fishing, trapping, or just plain random exploration of nature all are a whole lot more influential in boosting the hunter numbers than any of the special seasons that anybody might concoct. Furthermore, I do believe that more kids were sold on hunting on their first visit to hunting camps where hunting became a social event than some other kind of special season where the majority of hunters are not allowed to gather and create the hunt camp atmosphere.

I guess what I'm saying is that I am getting a bit tired and worried about how everybody is pinning all their hopes for the survival of hunting on special youth seasons. It all leaves me thinking that after such a plecebo is implemented, everyone will walk away thinking they have successfully saved hunting and continue to ignore or fail to invent and pursue real solutions.

Ole timer we are already well aware of your disdain for Americas youth and giving them every chance to maybe get hooked on the very same sport that true sportsman(unlike you)in our state are hooked on. man does the remote chance of seeing a youth hunter during your hunting season freak you out that much?

the funny part is how you carry on for freakin ever with your long winded posts and ideoligies on something i can sum up for you in one sentance. you just don't give a crap about the future of our sport or about youngsters getting into the woods "PERIOD" try that next time and stop with your one man song and tap dance yarns.

[Doc]

Squats in bushes-

Don't you ever get tired of playing the role of the forum jerk? I realize you are very good at it, but you might try a bit of personality rehabilitation and drop the village idiot act (assuming that it is an act). I don't think that you have ever posted anything that was even a little civil toward anybody here. Apparently your sole purpose for joining forums is just to be some kind of pathological creepy idiot. Well, congratulations you have achieved success. :

[steve863]

It would be nice if there were a few school programs that attempt to make outdoor activities "cool" again and other things that encourage kids to appreciate all things natural. It also would be nice to try to indoctrinate parents into appreciating the mental and physical values of outdoor activities for their kids and themselves. Hiking, camping, fishing, trapping, or just plain random exploration of nature all are a whole lot more influential in boosting the hunter numbers than any of the special seasons that anybody might concoct.

I actually think this says it all.  I have always believed that getting kids involved in other outdoor activities will give them MORE reasons to give hunting a try, than issuing a kid a gun or bow and have hunting as their only outdoor experience.  Lets face it, be it a special season or not, hunting, especially deer hunting from a stand can be quite boring for a youngster.  Combine this with hunting in an area where you don't get to see deer every day out, and it makes for a long, dreary day for a kid.  Take them hiking on a good nature trail where they can see all sorts of critters and it will make for a way more enjoyable day for them.  At the same time it will get them into a better frame of mind in regards to fitness.  We have enough hunters out there who can't walk 150 yards to their stands without the need of ATV's.  I don't think we need anymore.  Having them realize that walking is a part of the hunt will make them way more aware of their surroundings and better hunters, too.

[orion]

"Lets face it, be it a special season or not, hunting, especially deer hunting from a stand can be quite boring for a youngster.  Combine this with hunting in an area where you don't get to see deer every day out, and it makes for a long, dreary day for a kid."

Exactly ! and when they spend a weekend upstate away from their friends and girlfriend who are at some party texting what a good time they are having and your son is sitting in a tree watching "nothing" thanks to the DEC wanting to shoot every deer that walks. It gets tough to get them involved!  Yeah son do you want to come back next weekend? 

[Doc]

Also, it may have been mentioned before, but who the heck determined that a youngster's entrance into hunting should start with deer hunting? That sure isn't the way I was introduced to hunting. I became the family's chief supplier of squirrel and rabbit meat long before I ever even thought of killing a deer. It was that small game hunting and all the other outdoor activities and interests in combination that made me a life-long hunter, not some special youth big-game season. I really don't think that anything has changed in that regard since then. So today we think that a special youth season here and there is going to automatically sell kids on hunting. It just ain't that easy! It really isn't even a piece of the solution. It's a horse-before-the-cart kind of approach that leaves out all of the foundation.

[WNYBuckHunter]

It would be nice if there were a few school programs that attempt to make outdoor activities "cool" again and other things that encourage kids to appreciate all things natural. It also would be nice to try to indoctrinate parents into appreciating the mental and physical values of outdoor activities for their kids and themselves. Hiking, camping, fishing, trapping, or just plain random exploration of nature all are a whole lot more influential in boosting the hunter numbers than any of the special seasons that anybody might concoct.

I actually think this says it all.  I have always believed that getting kids involved in other outdoor activities will give them MORE reasons to give hunting a try, than issuing a kid a gun or bow and have hunting as their only outdoor experience.  Lets face it, be it a special season or not, hunting, especially deer hunting from a stand can be quite boring for a youngster.  Combine this with hunting in an area where you don't get to see deer every day out, and it makes for a long, dreary day for a kid.  Take them hiking on a good nature trail where they can see all sorts of critters and it will make for a way more enjoyable day for them.  At the same time it will get them into a better frame of mind in regards to fitness.  We have enough hunters out there who can't walk 150 yards to their stands without the need of ATV's.  I don't think we need anymore.  Having them realize that walking is a part of the hunt will make them way more aware of their surroundings and better hunters, too.

I can agree with that wholeheartedly. My daughter has been raised going on "nature walks", fishing, camping, and hunting. She thoroughly enjoys the outdoors, but it is getting to be a bit of a challenge to keep her away from the video games and TV shows. She is very excited that she doesnt have to wait so long to be able to start hunting since they lowered the age.

[steve863]

Also, it may have been mentioned before, but who the heck determined that a youngster's entrance into hunting should start with deer hunting? That sure isn't the way I was introduced to hunting. I became the family's chief supplier of squirrel and rabbit meat long before I ever even thought of killing a deer.

The vast majority of hunters out there are predominantly deer hunters these days, so deer hunting WILL be a kids first taste of hunting in the majority of cases.  Many deer hunters hunt only deer and little else.  I doubt they will convert into rabbit or squirrel hunters just to give junior a taste of hunting.  Small game hunting was even more popular than big game hunting up thru the 70's.  Somewhere in the 80's things began to change where deer hunting began to rule the hunting world and I don't think we will be going back any time soon.

[G-Man]

Yes it would be nice if kids could do what we did when we were young walk around with a bb-gun then a .22 plinking. But todays kids grow up in subdivisions where a neighbor will call the cops if a black squirtgun is seen. Opening a youth hunt gives the kids the oppurtunity to get out of their enviroment and have an opportunity to harvest game that maybe more relaxed. They are not out there by themselves(nys law under 16 accopmanied by adult) This is the best the state can do. The days of wandering behind the houses plinking are gone for most. If you live where your kids can do this Great i'm sure they are out there and are hooked on hunting already! For those that are'nt this is another way to help them get hooked. The turkey youth hunt has made a few hunters i know of and as of last year they are hunting deer as well! 

[CNYScott]

A plan beats no plan, and this seeks to promote hunting with expansion of archery season, a dedicated youth hunt and attempts at improving deer herds.  It's by no means perfect but it's not bad either. 

Bottom line on youth hunting -- It's up to us as individuals to introduce kids to the love of hunting.  Perhaps if we're not preoccupied with our own pursuit of game we will be more inclined to include kids in our hunting plans.  Not to mention it gives us the opportunity for some last minute scouting, which isn't a bad thing.

[nyantler]

Also, it may have been mentioned before, but who the heck determined that a youngster's entrance into hunting should start with deer hunting? That sure isn't the way I was introduced to hunting. I became the family's chief supplier of squirrel and rabbit meat long before I ever even thought of killing a deer.

The vast majority of hunters out there are predominantly deer hunters these days, so deer hunting WILL be a kids first taste of hunting in the majority of cases.  Many deer hunters hunt only deer and little else.  I doubt they will convert into rabbit or squirrel hunters just to give junior a taste of hunting.  Small game hunting was even more popular than big game hunting up thru the 70's.  Somewhere in the 80's things began to change where deer hunting began to rule the hunting world and I don't think we will be going back any time soon.

I agree wit Doc.. although I have gotten away from the small game hunting I did as a youth... when my kids were younger I specifically started them out hunting squirrels and even shooting bullfrogs... because it was much easier to do and didn't require all day to do it... they got a fair amount of shots in with an occasional kill to bring along their confidence... If hunters are truly gung-ho about getting youngsters involved in hunting.. they would be better served by taking the kid after some plentiful small game... kids at first don't care much what they are hunting as long as they are getting some action...

[orion]

Luckily I can take my son out duck hunting on the island so he gets to hunt and enjoys it. Unfortunately I haven't seen a gray squirrel in 10 years and rabbits even longer on  the property we have. Coyotes hawks whatever have taken their toll on them. Tried coyote hunting but that"s a whole new sport that I haven't figured out.

[Doc]

Yes it would be nice if kids could do what we did when we were young walk around with a bb-gun then a .22 plinking. But todays kids grow up in subdivisions where a neighbor will call the cops if a black squirtgun is seen........

...... The days of wandering behind the houses plinking are gone for most. If you live where your kids can do this Great i'm sure they are out there and are hooked on hunting already!

Unfortunately, what you are saying is quite true which further lends credence to my claim that problems with hunting stem primarily with social evolution. Unfortunately that is something that a three day special hunt will not fix. It really is hard to expect a kid to engage in a three-day hunt and instantly become a life-long hunter. As much as I wish it were that easy, reality tells me that it is not. I am still a believer that the DEC has to get involved in the schools and work on creating an appreciation for ALL things outdoors. It's a total mind-set change and not a three-day event that is needed. I think also, there has to be a public relations push launched toward parents encouraging them to take part in their kids lives with outdoor activities of all sorts and start moving them back toward a lifestyle that appreciates nature. Those that can't ..... can't, but most cases are simply adults getting too caught up in their own lives and letting the physical and mental needs of their children find their own directions. Maybe some P-R action by the DEC might help change some of that. Of course all that requires some kind of improvement in the funding and direction of the DEC. But if we are to spend our time on things that are meaningful and that have a chance of working, we have to find the way to make it all happen. And a three-day special hunt I believe is simply distracting from real solutions.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Again, nobody is suggesting that at three day hunt is going to solve all of the problems. Its a step, and the other things that you point out are more steps that should be taken.

[Doc]

That's where we disagree. I don't think it is even a "step". especially while we are ignoring (or seem to be ignoring) the foundation activities that maybe might make a special season work.

I also have other questions involving these special seasons. How many parents are willing or legally able to accompany these kids? How many non-hunting parents take time out from their schedules to actually take the lengthy hunter safety courses required so they can accompany their kids during this 3-day event? Are the number of kids that actually turn into hunters from this program even expected to be statistically significant? Is that even be possible. Has anybody invested any research on whether such a thing is worthwhile? As I said once before, this youth hunt seems really to be more of a blind, pointless, flailing around trying just anything in hopes of getting lucky. I have a real hard time getting enthused about something like that that seems so poorly thought out. I don't know, I guess I'm just not being sold on the whole concept. I think the whole thing is a massive, almost impossible uphill battle, and I really hate seeing efforts wasted on something that has such a small chance of making any difference at all.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The youth turkey season seems to work, I see no reason why a youth deer season wouldnt be the same type of thing. I highly doubt non hunting parents are going to take their safety course and buy a license, I would think that those kids would be taken out by an adult they know or maybe are related to that hunts.I dont really understand your blind, pointless flailing comment as many other states run successful youth seasons, NY has a successful youth turkey season and there are many other examples out there that show plenty of participation in the youth seasons.

[Doc]

When you say the youth turkey season seems to work, what criteria are you judging that by? How many of those participants become recruited hunters vs how many make the old man happy by going out with him? In other words are there any stats that show that we have added X% of hunters to our ranks that otherwise wouldn't have been there? If these programs are creating any statistical difference, I would guess that the DEC with their love of statistics would be trotting them out there. So far I haven't seen anything of that sort. Participation numbers in one-shot activity is not necessarily recruitment into the ranks of the hunters. Without concrete data that such programs are making real honest improvement in hunter numbers, I guess I am a bit skeptical, and a bit reluctant to say that they are a success. And yes, if no one is serious enough to analyze the results to determine if these programs are really working (here in NY or elsewhere would do), I do view it all as panicky pointless flailing around with no particular valid direction.

Yes, this is a point on which my mind could be changed if anyone has any evidence that it is making a difference in a way that changes the decline of hunter recruitment (which is the only metric that I recognize as being proof that special seasons work). Otherwise, logic tells me that these programs are likely window dressing that ignores the real fundamental problems with hunter populations.

I don't know, others may be perfectly content to believe that the DEC is doing something meaningful regarding hunter population losses, but I prefer to see more proof than simple hope that their efforts are worthwhile.

[sits in trees]

The youth turkey season seems to work, I see no reason why a youth deer season wouldnt be the same type of thing. I highly doubt non hunting parents are going to take their safety course and buy a license, I would think that those kids would be taken out by an adult they know or maybe are related to that hunts.I dont really understand your blind, pointless flailing comment as many other states run successful youth seasons, NY has a successful youth turkey season and there are many other examples out there that show plenty of participation in the youth seasons.

Ohhh Docs eloquent dance as to why anything tried by anyone to get more young folks into hunting just won't work.  sounds all too familiar to his reasoning as to why crossbows won't help increase hunter numbers in NY either, Kinda funny how anything that is tried by anyone to increase hunter numbers is just no good, yet he will post hundreds of pages of his useless philosophizing dribble on all the reasons why something wont work without ever suggesting any realistic solutions as to how to make something work.

oh he will give you his suggestions but it always leads to some wingnut sociological theory on why it waz alwayz betta in da ole dayz BS.

very simple the man has a fear of anyone else out in the woods near him that might wack one of his deer before he does, especially a kid, GOD FORBID!!!big time loser.

[WNYBuckHunter]

By that I mean it gets the youth out there for a couple of extra days. I wouldnt presume to know that its necessarily a tool to get kids out into the woods for the very first time, more like a tool to possibly give them a better opportunity at the game and hold their attention. Alot of the time kids attention span is determined by success, especially if they havent been taken out into the woods for years beforehand. If you can get them a good chance at a doe that isnt pressured, well you have a better chance at them becoming a hunter for life. Just because thats not how you were brought into hunting, doesnt mean its not valid. Like I said its not like NY is the first to do something like this, and its not even the first youth season in NY, so whats the problem with it? Other than you dont think it will do any good.

Ill see if I can find any numbers for you from other states when I have a chance. I am interested to see exactly what other states have come up with too.

[Doc]

I know that NY is not the first to propose or implement youth seasons. There seems to be a lot of stock placed in that activity, and unfortunately it seems to be the sum total of the everyone's plan to bolster hunter numbers. however I also note the continuing reports of hunting numbers still plummeting, so I can't help but not have a lot of faith in these schemes.

However, for the sake of the sport I really do hope you and the rest of the believers in these programs are right. Something has to work or hunting will continue to fade from our heritage. I would feel a whole lot more reassured if there was some tangible evidence that these things actually were having some effect on improving the hunter replacement numbers. Even more reassuring would be any sign that there were other activities aimed more at turning social attitudes toward hunting and other outdoor activities around. I'm afraid that the DEC is feeling quite satisfied with their efforts and are calling the job complete. I honestly believe they have hung their hopes on something that won't even show up as a blip on the hunter population stats.