Xbow full inclusion??

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

It simply comes down to this... someone may buy one and kill my deer!!

i hear this alot. it always gets likes in a thread like this. I never get an answer to my rebuttal though.

what is stopping any of those guys from killing my deer now?

keeping in mind that there is a permit system for disabled and elderly (one that we all agree needs reform).

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 minutes ago, johnplav said:

 

You see no difference because you are very proficient with your bow.  I am less proficient and I think that my crossbow edges out my bow in terms of accuracy, range, etc.  A few seasons ago I set my father up in a stand with my crossbow (having only shot it once before) and he made a perfect shot on a doe.  I doubt he could pull back my bow, nevermind effectively kill a deer his second time shooting it.  When you take the hunter's skill/proficiency out of the equation, a crossbow is more effective than an equally priced bow.  Full disclosure: I hunt with both bow and crossbow and I love them both equally.  That said, I feel a bit more pride in deer killed with the compound, because in my opinion, and in my hands, I feel it is more challenging. 

Ive said multiple times, that a crossbow is easier to become proficient with. In a hunting situation, the difference between someone that is proficient with a bow and someone that is proficient with a crossbow, is minimal.

[johnplav]

Just now, WNYBuckHunter said:

Ive said multiple times, that a crossbow is easier to become proficient with. In a hunting situation, the difference between someone that is proficient with a bow and someone that is proficient with a crossbow, is minimal.

Agreed.  In fact, I like using my crossbow as a motivator.  My goal is to be as proficient, if not better with my compound.

[Steuben Jerry]

1 hour ago, chrisw said:

This whole coddling kids so they have instant success is the reason why so many people today don't want to work for anything, they feel entitled. It just reinforces that you don't have to put in the time and effort if you want, there's an easier way around it. I went through the learning struggles the same as most learning to bowhunt. Noone in my family bowhunted so I was on my own. I picked it up from magazines and making mistakes and I'm a lot better bowhunter for it today. If I had a child I wouldn't think any different, pick up a bow, work hard, put in practice and it'll happen. The adult world is not going to coddle them and make it easy so why raise them that way?

I agree with the whole "coddling kids" today thing, but as far as our sport goes, we are a dying breed, and we need to do what we can to interest youth into the sport. Without new hunters injected into the sport, there will be less and less of us until we are an inconsequential number to worry about, and hunting will be legislated out of existence.

I'm trying to get my grandson into the sport. He's 11, into playing sports big-time, and when he's in high school, he'll have no time for hunting. I'm hoping to interest him enough that he comes back to it after his high school and college sports days are over.

This year, on the Friday after Thanksgiving, we rode the ATVs from the garage to the tower stand, turned the heater on for a bit, sent some texts on his ipod, and a little before last light, I shot a doe with a .270, using the window sill for a rest while he "coached" the shot. Then we ATV'd back to the house and cooked venison on the grill while watching college football on satellite TV.

Was this hunting? I call it shooting and having a good time. He loved it. He loved riding the ATVs, he loved hanging out in the shooting house, and he loved the whole shot/field dress/recovery aspect. He especially loves eating venison steaks - lol. If I would have "made it difficult", "challenged" him, and made him put in more "time and effort", I can guarantee he'd hate it and not want to do it anymore. As it is now, he talks about us hunting together in the future and tells his friends how him and Grampa always get a deer. 

I don't know how other kids are, but I know how he is and suspect most kids today are similar.

BTW, he wants to shoot my crossbow. Because it's cool. It is actually.

ps, his smile in the pic is genuine.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Steuben Jerry

[G-Man]

6 minutes ago, Belo said:

i hear this alot. it always gets likes in a thread like this. I never get an answer to my rebuttal though.

what is stopping any of those guys from killing my deer now?

keeping in mind that there is a permit system for disabled and elderly (one that we all agree needs reform).

They are not out early season, I dont hear shots so they are not out there but they will go buy a crossbow and be out there cause they are just gun hunters..  my experiance everyone I know that has crossbow has an archery licence as well.. just my experiance. I'm sure there are those that buy and go but they are hunters with experiance as well.. as for you disabled permits people are disabled that are not quadriplegic.  That is what it about takes to get a draft loc permit. 

Years ago I was hunting with will Elliott on a bear hunt and we were discussing crossbow.. as I told him then the only reason it's an issue at all is because of nys definition of disabled.. if it was changed there would be no need for crossbow.. it was not and crossbow gains support due to age, injury and permanent disabilities in the group of hunters increase.

[nodeerhere]

I wish I would have stayed out of this stupid argument! Again 

[Hunter007]

I dont know but guys worrying about to many deer being taken with crossbows especially on private land are being paranoid. 

Compared to any gun crossbow is not even close to the effective  range and number of different angles you can take a deer with it .

And the deer take numbers  I think reflect that .

My only complaint is I cant buy the crossbow model  I want because of there dumb width and weight rules .

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I am just as confident inside of 45 yards with my compound bow as I am with my crossbow. I actually practice at longer distances with my compound than I do with my crossbow. There are plenty of shots That I would take with a gun at any distance that I wouldnt with any archery equipment, because they kill in 2 completely different ways, but maybe thats just me.

I disagree again, they wound differently but kill the same unless CNS is permanently disrupted by hydrostatic/hydraulic shock with a gun very rare most times it is temporary and the deer dies of lack of oxygen to the brain before it regains brain functions. All other kills are the same lack of oxygen to the brain.

You shoot your compound at further distances with your compound because it makes you more proficient and closer distances, same reason I do. That isn’t needed with an Xbow because all you have to do is lay it on the rest put appropriate reticle on target and squeeze the trigger, no need to worry about anchor, sight alignment follow through or any of the other factors that come into place with vertical archery equipment.


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[Hunter007]

Not sure where this is going .

If I already have a crossbow with scope sited in have it on a bench rest and let someone who never even shot a gun before pull the trigger they will hit the red on a target  .

If you just  did that with  a  70 pound compound bow . You are not going to get the same outcome.  Holding a bow with one arm is never going to be as steady as using a rest that you can use with a crossbow .

And the longer you have to hold your arm out the worse it's going to get .

That does not mean it should not be used in archery.  In fact you can make the case that it's more  humane less chance for a bad shot . 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Storm914

[WNYBuckHunter]

54 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I disagree again, they wound differently but kill the same unless CNS is permanently disrupted by hydrostatic/hydraulic shock with a gun very rare most times it is temporary and the deer dies of lack of oxygen to the brain before it regains brain functions. All other kills are the same lack of oxygen to the brain.

You shoot your compound at further distances with your compound because it makes you more proficient and closer distances, same reason I do. That isn’t needed with an Xbow because all you have to do is lay it on the rest put appropriate reticle on target and squeeze the trigger, no need to worry about anchor, sight alignment follow through or any of the other factors that come into place with vertical archery equipment.


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Yes, they wound differently, there is a larger margin of error with a gun, and you can punch through bone, etc much easier. You would take a neck shot on a deer with a bow or crossbow? I wouldnt. I will with a gun though.

I dont even think about any of those things shooting my compound, practice makes it second nature. I think more about making sure my limbs are clear of everything, and thats with both my compund and crossbow. Very few of my setups have a rest, I dont generally use one unless Im sighting my crossbow in. When pulling up on a deer with my crossbow, its about the same amount of movement as when I draw my compound, maybe even more.

[Core]

On 12/1/2018 at 11:06 PM, grampy said:

Sorry, but I just don't see how a hunter with a crossbow, or vertical bow, takes "a chance" away from another hunter.

Sure you do. Full inclusion means more hunters early on means more pressure. I assume you appreciate how if we opened up gun season to October 1st it would increase pressure that vertical guys have to face. If you do, you ought to see how inclusion of xbow would do the same, albeit to a lesser degree.

It seems to me most guys are still for whatever reason never going to bother with xbow, but I do like some season separation just so that the more difficult tool to use has minimum deer pressure. I wouldn't even mind dropping down bow-only to the first two weeks of october, then opening xbow up to a full month or so, but I like some separation. 

[Core]

49 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

Not sure where this is going .

If I already have a crossbow with scope sited in have it on a bench rest and let someone who never even shot a gun before pull the trigger they will hit the red on a target  .

If you just  did that with  a  70 pound compound bow . You are not going to get the same outcome.  Holding a bow with one arm is never going to be as steady as using a rest that you can use with a crossbow .

And the longer you have to hold your arm out the worse it's going to get .

That does not mean it should not be used in archery.  In fact you can make the case that it's more  humane less chance for a bad shot . 

Well some people who are either dishonest or ignorant of the difficulty of shooting a vertical bow like to pretend that an xbow is no more lethal, and it sure as hell is. My cheap xbow hits harder than any vertical bow on the planet, has 3X optical zoom, and shoots tighter groups as well. I was looking forward to xbow this year because I had to miss a bunch of shot chances with my compound that, had I been with my xbow, I would have taken.

Anybody who hunts with both will admit that in equal conditions (range, angles, etc.) the xbow is just a superior harvesting tool.

[Steuben Jerry]

44 minutes ago, Core said:

Anybody who hunts with both will admit that in equal conditions (range, angles, etc.) the xbow is just a superior harvesting tool.

If crossbows were to be fully included in the full archery season, I'll admit that I'd probably never pick up a vertical bow again.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Steuben Jerry

[Jeremy K]

34 minutes ago, Core said:

Well some people who are either dishonest or ignorant of the difficulty of shooting a vertical bow like to pretend that an xbow is no more lethal, and it sure as hell is. My cheap xbow hits harder than any vertical bow on the planet, has 3X optical zoom, and shoots tighter groups as well. I was looking forward to xbow this year because I had to miss a bunch of shot chances with my compound that, had I been with my xbow, I would have taken.

Anybody who hunts with both will admit that in equal conditions (range, angles, etc.) the xbow is just a superior harvesting tool.

Vertical bow hunters are a rare breed ,they take their marksmanship very serious , it's a pride thing for them.  It's not for everyone .

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I am just as confident inside of 45 yards with my compound bow as I am with my crossbow. I actually practice at longer distances with my compound than I do with my crossbow. There are plenty of shots That I would take with a gun at any distance that I wouldnt with any archery equipment, because they kill in 2 completely different ways, but maybe thats just me.

my guess is that you didn't develop that confidence with your compound in an afternoon though. And that's the difference. 

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

They are not out early season, I dont hear shots so they are not out there but they will go buy a crossbow and be out there cause they are just gun hunters..  my experiance everyone I know that has crossbow has an archery licence as well.. just my experiance. I'm sure there are those that buy and go but they are hunters with experiance as well.. as for you disabled permits people are disabled that are not quadriplegic.  That is what it about takes to get a draft loc permit. 

Years ago I was hunting with will Elliott on a bear hunt and we were discussing crossbow.. as I told him then the only reason it's an issue at all is because of nys definition of disabled.. if it was changed there would be no need for crossbow.. it was not and crossbow gains support due to age, injury and permanent disabilities in the group of hunters increase.

i think you proved my point then. You state that the fear is guys will be killing "my deer". I'd argue that nobody is really worried about that anymore. Maybe at one point sure. The stance most anti-crossbow guys have now comes from a place of preserving tradition. Fearing that kids wont ever want to even try a compound when they can be Daryl out there in the woods instead.

Some throw around the term "elitist bowhunter" like it's an insult. Shit, I wear that badge with pride. It's freaking hard for the average guy with average land to kill a nice deer, let alone any deer with a bow. It takes sacrifice to practice, prep, scout and learn when and how to draw. Now I can go down to walmart friday night and be in the woods traipsing around the next day with my crossbow? You know the other reason archers like bow season? It's quite. Mostly only good hunters with good woodsmanship. Why? because those that tried it and aren't will to put in the time gave up. Because IT IS HARD. 

Don't get me wrong, i like gun season too. But for different reasons. I hunt private land that is highly pressured during gun. Not so much with archery. I dont think crossbows will or would affect me... but it's kinda like illegal immigration or global warming isn't it? I'm a little worried about it... it hasn't really ever affected me that I can see, but I'm starting to see some of the writing on the wall and I'm a little worried that now is the only chance we have to do the right thing. /end Belo going off the rails 

[Five Seasons]

33 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

If crossbows were to be fully included in the full archery season, I'd probably never pick up a vertical bow again.

so imagine what a 14 year old would think when given the option. 

[Hunter007]

1 minute ago, Belo said:

so imagine what a 14 year old would think when given the option. 

Probably not because the object of hunting and most hunters is to get game  not nature watch that is why gun hunting is the most popular time of hunting season .

Anything that helps you hunt more effectively  gets used the most . 

 

[Steuben Jerry]

16 minutes ago, Belo said:

so imagine what a 14 year old would think when given the option. 

Exactly. Then again, I'm not seeing anything necessarily wrong with that. Times change, technology changes.

[WNYBuckHunter]

35 minutes ago, Belo said:

my guess is that you didn't develop that confidence with your compound in an afternoon though. And that's the difference. 

Thats the only difference though, and thats my whole point.

[grampy]

1 hour ago, Core said:

Sure you do. Full inclusion means more hunters early on means more pressure. I assume you appreciate how if we opened up gun season to October 1st it would increase pressure that vertical guys have to face. If you do, you ought to see how inclusion of xbow would do the same, albeit to a lesser degree.

It seems to me most guys are still for whatever reason never going to bother with xbow, but I do like some season separation just so that the more difficult tool to use has minimum deer pressure. I wouldn't even mind dropping down bow-only to the first two weeks of october, then opening xbow up to a full month or so, but I like some separation. 

I'm still sitting this one out up at the barn, keeping the beer cold. Only 8 pages so far. You boys will be at it a while longer. You know where I'll be when you're done.      

[Five Seasons]

7 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Thats the only difference though, and thats my whole point.

the only difference? really? you know that's not true. there's no draw required. you can hold for as long as you need. those are crucial limitations with the compound. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, Core said:

Well some people who are either dishonest or ignorant of the difficulty of shooting a vertical bow like to pretend that an xbow is no more lethal, and it sure as hell is. My cheap xbow hits harder than any vertical bow on the planet, has 3X optical zoom, and shoots tighter groups as well. I was looking forward to xbow this year because I had to miss a bunch of shot chances with my compound that, had I been with my xbow, I would have taken.

Anybody who hunts with both will admit that in equal conditions (range, angles, etc.) the xbow is just a superior harvesting tool.

It is not. It has the same effective range, and hits with comparable KE as a vertical bow. The only difference is how quickly you can become proficient with it.

They do not hit much harder than a compound, you can easily do the math and see for yourself. Ill make it easy for you though, a crossbow shooting 350 fps with a 420-grain arrow generates 114 foot-pounds of kinetic energy. A compound shooting a 350-grain arrow at 350 fps generates 95 foot-pounds of kinetic energy. Thats not much of a difference, and its only because the crossbow arrow weighs more.

If you look at professional shooters, the vertical bow guys are more accurate than their crossbow counterparts. You can compare score sheets of the top shooters in each class.

[WNYBuckHunter]

7 minutes ago, Belo said:

the only difference? really? you know that's not true. there's no draw required. you can hold for as long as you need. those are crucial limitations with the compound. 

See how long you can hold a crossbow on target without a rest, then get back to me.

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, Jeremy K said:

Vertical bow hunters are a rare breed ,they take their marksmanship very serious , it's a pride thing for them.  It's not for everyone .

A rare breed? Please. You think taking ones marksmanship seriously is limited to "vertical bow hunters"? You make some seriously ignorant statements.