UpStateRedNeck

Switching to Fixed Blade with new string

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I think you are on the right track with your thinking.  Stats collected from deer search around the country show a higher recovery rate for fixed blades over mechanicals and much higher recovery for pass-throughs vs one hole. 
Everything works on a great shot and Rage can be devastating.  I really agree with the idea that with better penetration you would have recovered some of those deer.  Many of us bow hunters have learned lessons the hard way.  Sounds like you are trying to learn from your experiences.  Good luck making improvements.  
I keep coming back to deer I hit in the shoulder blade with mechanicals that I shouldn't have lost.  A well built cut on contact, like a Magnus would have done the job.  These were shots under 30 yards with heavy aluminum arrows.  Now I know better.

Any deer hit In the shoulder blade(regardless of head) becomes a questionable recovery IMO. I think We all agree that the perfect shot requires ANY head. It’s when we get into the less than savory shot category where the different head equals different results.


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1 hour ago, stubborn1VT said:

 

I keep coming back to deer I hit in the shoulder blade with mechanicals that I shouldn't have lost.  A well built cut on contact, like a Magnus would have done the job.  These were shots under 30 yards with heavy aluminum arrows.  Now I know better.

Yeah.  I shoulder hit a GD Monster 11 point with this nasty looking drop tine, my 3rd year bow hunting.  Once again, from a steep angle because I hunt hillsides.  Didn't penetrate.  Made me sick, first deer I ever lost.  And I thought "Oh well that's the game, next time make a better shot."  Then I'm watching THP this spring and Aaron blow through a big deers shoulder with a cut on contact and I'm like "what?!?!  That's a thing?!?!"  No I'm not going to deliberately take that shot once I'm set up and running fixed, but eff me it would be nice to feel confident I'll drop one if it has to go through some big ol' ribs.  And my confidence in rage is shot.  I'll keep them on my crossbow for now, but that's pretty secondary for my desire to take a truly big boy with bow.

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'08 Bowtech Commander

GoldTip Hunter Expedition's w/ Rage 2 Blades

Remington 700 .308

Mossberg 500 Pump

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1 hour ago, crappyice said:


Any deer hit In the shoulder blade(regardless of head) becomes a questionable recovery IMO. I think We all agree that the perfect shot requires ANY head. It’s when we get into the less than savory shot category where the different head equals different results.


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I think it's a pretty safe bet that a heavy arrow with a stout cut-on-contact gets through the shoulder well enough to do the job.  Just my opinion.  

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1 hour ago, UpStateRedNeck said:

 Then I'm watching THP this spring and Aaron blow through a big deers shoulder with a cut on contact and I'm like "what?!?!  That's a thing?!?!" 

If I remember right this was the episode that was shot in NYS and if I remember right he talked about how he knew he could take that shoulder shot because of his heavy arrow set up and the close range the Buck was at. I believe he said if it was a different arrow set up or a longer distance he never would have taken that shot.

I only have one Bow deer under my belt so I am no expert but I am a very Keep It Simple kind of person so I shoot fixed blade Muzzy's. The arrow entered in between the ribs and impacted the shoulder on the other side and did not pass through. I watch where the deer went down but decided I wanted to find and follow the blood trail just to brush up on my skills. In the low light of being just after sunset I found blood immediately and had no problem staying on the trail at a quick pace. The blood trail got so thick I gave up following it after 30 yards and just walked to the deer because I was not going to learn anything new following the trail. 

That right their gave me enough of a reason to stick with fixed blades. As they say if it works don't fix it.     

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I think more thought goes into broadheads than necessary. Use a good flying head, make sure it's sharp and shoot straight. You can use a 1" bone breaker of a broadheads, hit one too far back and wish you had a bigger cutting surface. Or you can use a 2.5" head and hit one in the shoulder and wish you had the 1." Everyone has different experiences with different heads because every situation is different. These are thin skinned light game we're talking about, not Africa. Don't overthink it! I shot a 190lb dressed buck last year with my trusty NAP Spitfire XXX and it blew right through him. If you have a heavy draw weight bow don't be afraid of big holes. Decrease cutting diameter as your draw weight goes down.

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The main issue is deer move after one shoots,sometimes anyway. The vitals may not be where your arrow goes,even though you hit your mark. That's where a plan B arrow comes in,for me anyway.

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15 hours ago, crappyice said:

Sorry..not following- penetration issues and trails you love? No exit hole usually equals lack of a BT like the Cabin Fever pic shows

 

Never shot them but I bet they would make one hell of a mess with a gut shot deer (not a bad thing). The soft fleshy belly would be shredded I bet. Rib bones sound like an issue which makes me nervously

 

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not sure which head your referring too?? The Magnus slice right through everything. the ser razors are individually sharpened and don't tear anything up.

With the Rage heads i had about 50/50 pass through/not. One rage hole with a 3" slap cut bleeds a ridiculous amount but usually that arrow ended up broken from the deer. 

When a rage hits a shoulder blade ( which has happen to me) with out the arrow weight/velocity to punch through the deer is gone. They work great when they do, bad then they don't, i still used them in the crossbow. Also i've had multiple Rage heads "bend" after hitting bone or the ground, which can get expensive at $15 a head, with magnus i sent an email with a photo and have  a brand new head in two days. They don't even care how you did it. 

Magnus on the other hand i and my coworker have shot approx 10 deer with 100% pass through and recovery and 0 broken arrows. ( 2 came through a shoulder blade, not the thick part)

I'm not bashing rage, but merely showing my experiences with them. If i had to pick a head for a gut shot deer Rage would be your best shot at recovery.

Edited by Hock3y24
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9 hours ago, chrisw said:

I think more thought goes into broadheads than necessary. Use a good flying head, make sure it's sharp and shoot straight. You can use a 1" bone breaker of a broadheads, hit one too far back and wish you had a bigger cutting surface. Or you can use a 2.5" head and hit one in the shoulder and wish you had the 1." Everyone has different experiences with different heads because every situation is different. These are thin skinned light game we're talking about, not Africa. Don't overthink it! I shot a 190lb dressed buck last year with my trusty NAP Spitfire XXX and it blew right through him. If you have a heavy draw weight bow don't be afraid of big holes. Decrease cutting diameter as your draw weight goes down.

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This is a bit of a miss conception as well. a guy can have a high poundage bow and a short DL should still not be trying for a big hole as his arrow speed is still relatively low. You want a Decent arrow speed ( draw weight and length) with a proper weight arrow and FOC for momentum. 

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I've shot fixed blade then went to mechanical now am going back. I've killed deer with both my biggest thing is shooting slower bows with mechanicals I never got the pass through or pentration I wanted on quarting away shots.  Plus they always seemed bent or damaged. I like that these magnus(first year with them) is I can resharpen them and all the reviews say they are great on quartering away shots.  Only time will tell.  

Biggest thing is be confident with what your shooting.  

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This is a bit of a miss conception as well. a guy can have a high poundage bow and a short DL should still not be trying for a big hole as his arrow speed is still relatively low. You want a Decent arrow speed ( draw weight and length) with a proper weight arrow and FOC for momentum. 
There are several factors to consider, I was just stating a simplified version. Point being with today's archery advancements and technology, it's much less of a concern than it used to be. A 475 grain arrow traveling at 310fps is going to be deadly with just about anything on the front of it. Shot angles and bad shots are what screw 90% of bowhunters out there, not the broadheads. That's why I take a lot of horror broadheads stories with a grain of salt, it's generally the Indian not the arrow.

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3 hours ago, chrisw said:

There are several factors to consider, I was just stating a simplified version. Point being with today's archery advancements and technology, it's much less of a concern than it used to be. A 475 grain arrow traveling at 310fps is going to be deadly with just about anything on the front of it. Shot angles and bad shots are what screw 90% of bowhunters out there, not the broadheads. That's why I take a lot of horror broadheads stories with a grain of salt, it's generally the Indian not the arrow.

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Not that many people will get a 475 grain arrow to fly over 300 fps even. I would guess less than 10% of all shooters.

My old arrows weighing 325 total didnt crack 300 fps,with a 330 fps rated bow at 30" DL.

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Just want to throw this out there with all this talk about shooting through shoulders . No matter the arrow weight poundage of bow or broad head if one hits the thickest part of the shoulder blade or  ball and socket your not making it through. One has to be realistic about the performance of their bow. 
I am a true 33 inch draw and back in my younger days i shot 76 lbs draw with a 430 ish grain arrow and spitfire broad heads. Two of my biggest bucks were shot with this set up, one of the bucks perfect broadside shot , cut 1 rib In half on the way in 2 In half on the way out and the arrow still buried into the ground several inches. 
Second buck quartering away, cut 2 ribs in half on the way in and offside shoulder stopped that arrow dead. Processing the deer you could see the gouge on the inside of the thickest part of the shoulder. 
The hunting public is s great show and they are great hunters but I always cringe when I see a tv hunter say that they’ve got enough horsepower to shoot through a shoulder. 
Heck the biggest buck I’ve ever seen only gave me a full on chest shot ( using my younger yr’s set up ) and I let him go. I would much rather let him walk than risking a marginal shot only to have him wounded and die later and never be found. Granted crappy shots happen but marginal shots never have to happen. 

Edited by rob-c
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Not that many people will get a 475 grain arrow to fly over 300 fps even. I would guess less than 10% of all shooters.
My old arrows weighing 325 total didnt crack 300 fps,with a 330 fps rated bow at 30" DL.
Forget the numbers then... The point is a bad shot is a bad shot, there's no miracle broadhead that's going to knock a deer over no matter where you hit them. Focus more on shot angles, distance and accuracy and less on the broadhead is what I'm getting at. Like I said previously, if you hit one in the guts you want the largest cut possible, if you hit one in the shoulder you want a stout, small head. If you hit them between those two spots it doesn't much matter!

The reason there isn't a debate on which bullets work best for deer is because if you hit them where you're supposed to it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Now you can research all of the premium hype put out by bullet manufacturers and if that's you that's fine, but there's not a deer out there that will live with a cheapo soft point through it's lungs. Now if you plan on shooting at the south end of a deer running away then it would behoove you to have a premium round, otherwise it doesn't make a damn bit of difference! Same with broadheads, if you take ethical shots at broadside or quartering away deer and can put that head where it needs to go, it doesn't matter!
I'm not immune from marketing or hunting show hype but the older I get and now that I've killed a pile of deer with a lot of different implements, I see that deer hunting is quite a simple process, there's no need to try and reinvent the wheel...

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6 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Forget the numbers then... The point is a bad shot is a bad shot, there's no miracle broadhead that's going to knock a deer over no matter where you hit them. Focus more on shot angles, distance and accuracy and less on the broadhead is what I'm getting at. Like I said previously, if you hit one in the guts you want the largest cut possible, if you hit one in the shoulder you want a stout, small head. If you hit them between those two spots it doesn't much matter!

The reason there isn't a debate on which bullets work best for deer is because if you hit them where you're supposed to it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Now you can research all of the premium hype put out by bullet manufacturers and if that's you that's fine, but there's not a deer out there that will live with a cheapo soft point through it's lungs. Now if you plan on shooting at the south end of a deer running away then it would behoove you to have a premium round, otherwise it doesn't make a damn bit of difference! Same with broadheads, if you take ethical shots at broadside or quartering away deer and can put that head where it needs to go, it doesn't matter!
I'm not immune from marketing or hunting show hype but the older I get and now that I've killed a pile of deer with a lot of different implements, I see that deer hunting is quite a simple process, there's no need to try and reinvent the wheel...

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Deer move. All i am saying is it seems like a good idea to have an arrow that has a good chance of going through the shoulder into the vitals. Recovery of gutshot deer has more to do with how one goes about it than cutting diameter of the arrow in my opinion.

There is no comparison to bullets because deer are not fast enough to dodge one. You miss your poi with a bullet it is all the shooters fault. With arrows it isnt,sure can be,but doesn't have to be.

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Deer move. All i am saying is it seems like a good idea to have an arrow that has a good chance of going through the shoulder into the vitals. Recovery of gutshot deer has more to do with how one goes about it than cutting diameter of the arrow in my opinion.
There is no comparison to bullets because deer are not fast enough to dodge one. You miss your poi with a bullet it is all the shooters fault. With arrows it isnt,sure can be,but doesn't have to be.
Whichever you are confident in is more important. If it makes you feel more confident in that situation then that's probably the right choice for you. I will add though that you say the deer isn't going to move when gun hunting, but I'd argue that more deer are shot at while actively moving with a gun than a bow. I know I've shot at far more deer that were running, walking, trotting etc with a gun than a bow. Therefore it's similar in the fact that you can't always know where you're going to impact the deer, but my bullet choice doesn't change with the "what if's" and neither does my broadhead.

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10 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Whichever you are confident in is more important. If it makes you feel more confident in that situation then that's probably the right choice for you. I will add though that you say the deer isn't going to move when gun hunting, but I'd argue that more deer are shot at while actively moving with a gun than a bow. I know I've shot at far more deer that were running, walking, trotting etc with a gun than a bow. Therefore it's similar in the fact that you can't always know where you're going to impact the deer, but my bullet choice doesn't change with the "what if's" and neither does my broadhead.

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You are right,confidence in ones setup is most important. When i said moving deer i mean after the shot,not shooting at running deer. You are 100% right that most gunshots are at deer not standing still.

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I've used many different fixed blade heads. I've gotten mixed results from everyone of them. Just what happens when you shoot a deer I think. That said sharper the better. My tight spot quiver doesnt touch the blades just up at the tip.

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I have been and probably always will be a a fixed blade guy. Usually I shoot a muzzy 3 bald. Did pick up a pack of muzzy one today and can’t wait to give them a shot


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On 8/13/2020 at 9:57 AM, crappyice said:


Any deer hit In the shoulder blade(regardless of head) becomes a questionable recovery IMO. I think We all agree that the perfect shot requires ANY head. It’s when we get into the less than savory shot category where the different head equals different results.


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Not my exact target,  but this shoulder shot, went maybe  60 yards and I just walked a red path to, it .

0033C6F6-2DFB-453F-83B0-A417046878B1.jpeg

7A80620C-6A54-4FCC-A2CB-08823B8E511D.jpeg

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Not my exact target,  but this shoulder shot, went maybe  60 yards and I just walked a red path to, it .
0033C6F6-2DFB-453F-83B0-A417046878B1.thumb.jpeg.9aff2331ba47b98c1dba4cc373c5e5d7.jpeg
7A80620C-6A54-4FCC-A2CB-08823B8E511D.thumb.jpeg.53bdb6fca4fdb5fb585258be84c6902e.jpeg

Sweet...fixed or mechanical?
Did the angle (tree stand?) somehow just exploded his heart?
Full pass through? Exit?
How far?

Sorry to pepper you with the above - just curios about what made a marginal(at best) hit such an easy track.


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Not my exact target,  but this shoulder shot, went maybe  60 yards and I just walked a red path to, it .
0033C6F6-2DFB-453F-83B0-A417046878B1.thumb.jpeg.9aff2331ba47b98c1dba4cc373c5e5d7.jpeg
7A80620C-6A54-4FCC-A2CB-08823B8E511D.thumb.jpeg.53bdb6fca4fdb5fb585258be84c6902e.jpeg
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IMO people don't think about broadheads enough.  There are tons of variables.  Some questions to ask: Is it sharp out of the package?  Will it hold together when it contacts bone/ribs?  Will it be sharp after hitting hide/meat/bone?  Will it give me a pass-through? Will the blades deploy correctly when shooting at an angle?  Will it fly like my field points?  Will it require a bunch of tuning to make it fly?

The only way to be confident in a broadhead is to use it and get good results.  That's just trial and error, unless you have done some research ahead of time.  I think it is a gross oversimplification to just screw on any old broadhead and expect it to do what you want.

Edited by stubborn1VT
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I like the steel force broadheads, montek are good as well, and old bear razor head lites


I've hunted almost everyday of my life.. the rest have been wasted!

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I've found that fixed blades penetrate better than mechanicals. I've also found that fixed blades tend to have a different point of impact than field points, while mechanicals tend to fly like field points. Maybe my bows haven't been tuned properly, but that's been my experience, albeit limited to a few different broadheads, bows and arrows.

I started hunting with fixed blades and would adjust my sights to suit just before hunting season, but then I'd hardly practice during the season. I switched to mechanicals about 10 yrs ago and practice more often during the season, since the mechanicals fly like field points.




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5 hours ago, cdbing said:

I've found that fixed blades penetrate better than mechanicals. I've also found that fixed blades tend to have a different point of impact than field points, while mechanicals tend to fly like field points. Maybe my bows haven't been tuned properly, but that's been my experience, albeit limited to a few different broadheads, bows and arrows.

I started hunting with fixed blades and would adjust my sights to suit just before hunting season, but then I'd hardly practice during the season. I switched to mechanicals about 10 yrs ago and practice more often during the season, since the mechanicals fly like field points.




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You absolutely have to tune your bow for Fixed heads, (should for mechanical too). Should match broad heads to arrows and number them ( yes their will always be better flying combinations.) You can get crazy into it but Paper tune ( paper taped into a ladder foot gap works) Then a walk back tune was all i needed, took an hour or so. 

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