Vaccination

[Versatile_Hunter]

2 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

It may not protect as many others as you think.  I have heard that the vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid,  or transmitting it to others.  It just prevents you from getting sick from it, about 85 % of the time.  At least that would free up some hospital capacity for those who do get sick, from Covid and other issues.

 

I bet the data will soon show that the infectious window is greatly reduced (or eliminated?) in vaccinated folks.

[Chef]

It may not protect as many others as you think.  I have heard that the vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid,  or transmitting it to others.  It just prevents you from getting sick from it, about 85 % of the time.  At least that would free up some hospital capacity for those who do get sick, from Covid and other issues.
 

Ok so you understand wrong... vaccines in general do not prevent a virus from entering your body. They prevent you from developing clinical diseases. The Pfizer and moderna are 95% effective at this. They are 100% effective at preventing hospitalization and death. This would allow society to return to normal. As far as transmission goes. It most likely will stop
Transmission they just can’t say for sure yet.

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[GreeneHunter]

7 minutes ago, Chef said:

They are 100% effective at preventing hospitalization and death. This would allow society to return to normal. As far as transmission goes. It most likely will stop Transmission they just can’t say for sure yet.
 

Preventing Hospitalization and Death ..... Music to my and my Wife's ears ! We're both over 60  and are the Target Audience for this Virus !

[DoubleDose]

26 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

It may not protect as many others as you think.  I have heard that the vaccine does not prevent you from getting Covid,  or transmitting it to others.  It just prevents you from getting sick from it, about 85 % of the time.  At least that would free up some hospital capacity for those who do get sick, from Covid and other issues.

 

It protects way many more than you think.  What you have heard about the vaccine is the science behind all virus vaccines; no short coming here.  The vaccine is 94-95% proven effective.  The goal of this vaccine and any vaccine is to stop and prevent epidemics and pandemics.  

[Chef]

Preventing Hospitalization and Death ..... Music to my and my Wife's ears ! We're both over 60  and are the Target Audience for this Virus !

I’m fat and just found it I’ll be eligible in 10 days. Can’t wait


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[left field]

45 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

Holy chit, folks using that for corvid?

That's livestock dewormer, can people even take that?

I got a whole jug here for cheap anyone wants to try it. Tractor supply special.

Yes. It's crazy, but there are a lot of people self medicating with ivermectin.

 

[Jeremy K]

15 minutes ago, Chef said:

I’m fat and just found it I’ll be eligible in 10 days. Can’t wait


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That's kind of messed up that you should get it before someone elderly that has diminished immune system due to their age.   

[Chef]

That's kind of messed up that you should get it before someone elderly that has diminished immune system due to their age.   

It’s been open to them for over a month now... I don’t have a appointment in 10 days I’m just eligible to make a appointment starting on the 15th


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[Nomad]

8 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

That's kind of messed up that you should get it before someone elderly that has diminished immune system due to their age.   

Fat people have been a large burden on the healthcare system since day one , why should this be different? It’s not like they’ve had a year to drop the weight and the covid risk factor .....

[Versatile_Hunter]

30 minutes ago, Nomad said:

Fat people have been a large burden on the healthcare system since day one , why should this be different? It’s not like they’ve had a year to drop the weight and the covid risk factor .....

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm

Quote: "Percent of adults aged 20 and over with overweight, including obesity: 73.6% (2017-2018)"

You have heavy expectations for 73.6% of Americans...

Edited February 7, 2021 by Versatile_Hunter

[Versatile_Hunter]

4 hours ago, outdoorstom said:

It all depends on what scientists you want to believe. Fauci?  I’ll pass.

As a scientist and someone who’s involved in reviewing scientific papers submitted for publication, I’m tempted to give you a primer on how science publishing works. I will resist for now.

I must say I am delighted to see a wide audience reading the primary literature and reviews. Much of this work is funded by taxpayer dollars and ultimately the work is for everyone to learn from. Unfortunately, if you are going to read a paper on a topic in which you’re inexperienced, you much approach the subject matter with the explicit acknowledgement of your relative ignorance. Personally, I do that all the time, especially when I delve outside of my field. We can’t have “science” fall victim to meme culture, where people share a screenshot of an article that bears a title supporting their position. That isn’t how science is supposed to work and it really undermines the whole process. Scientist are often wrong, but that’s not a bug it’s a feature of operating at the boundary of knowledge. Well executed studies work hard to acknowledge and account for potential known and unknown errors and biases. Over time, I truly believe that the truth wins out. Results that can’t be replicated are revealed and disagreements between scientists lead to open discussion (and subsequent experiments) that aim to uncover the cause of misaligned outcomes or interpretations.

I won’t go into the specifics (or into the pros and cons) of scientific journal impact factor, but the article you shared isn’t published in a reputable journal. Furthermore, if you look at what the authors have previously published, it’s clear that neither of them is an expert in immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, or even basic human physiology. It turns out that they run an orthopedic clinic where they peddle homeopathic remedies. In the scientific world, such low quality articles will disappear over time or they will be cited as an example of poor science. For these authors, they have no reputational stake in the scientific community so they have very little to lose by having their names attached to such garbage. Rather, the infamy generated by it will make it easier for potential orthopedic patients to find them and they are likely to make even more money as a consequence. Like with news, a certain level of literacy is required when delving into original research. I encourage you to develop said literacy and if you’re interested I’m happy to point you toward reputable sources.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Versatile_Hunter

[outdoorstom]

1 hour ago, Chef said:

Ok so you understand wrong... vaccines in general do not prevent a virus from entering your body. They prevent you from developing clinical diseases. The Pfizer and moderna are 95% effective at this. They are 100% effective at preventing hospitalization and death. This would allow society to return to normal. As far as transmission goes. It most likely will stop
Transmission they just can’t say for sure yet.

Get better news sources


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They are 100% effective at preventing hospitalization and death?  

[Chef]

They are 100% effective at preventing hospitalization and death?  

Yes no one in the trial group for either Pfizer or Moderna was hospitalized or died from covid.


Is there something you are not understanding ?


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[9jNYstarkOH]

@Versatile_Hunter as a scientist where are you on this literature from 2005 bad science on just a different variant that chloroquine was effective against.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/

[outdoorstom]

9 minutes ago, Versatile_Hunter said:

As a scientist and someone who’s involved in reviewing scientific papers submitted for publication, I’m tempted to give you a primer on how science publishing works. I will resist for now.

I must say that I am delighted with non-scientist reading the primary literature and reviews. Much of this work is funded by taxpayer dollars and ultimately the work is for everyone to learn from. Unfortunately, if you are going to read a paper on a topic in which you’re inexperienced, you much approach the subject matter with the explicit acknowledgement of your relative ignorance. Personally, I do that all the time, especially when I delve outside of my field. We can’t have “science” fall victim to meme culture, where people share a screenshot of an article that bears a title supporting their position. That isn’t how science is supposed to work and it really undermines the whole process. Scientist are often wrong, but that’s not a bug it’s a feature of operating at the boundary of knowledge. Well executed studies work hard to acknowledge and account for potential known and unknown errors and biases. Over time, I truly believe that the truth wins out. Results that can’t be replicated are revealed and disagreements between scientists lead to open discussion (and subsequent experiments) that aim to uncover the cause of misalign outcomes or interpretations.

I won’t go into the specifics (or into the pros and cons) of scientific journal impact factor, but the article you shared isn’t published in a reputable journal. Furthermore, if you look at what the authors have previously published, it’s clear that neither of them is an expert on immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, or even basic human physiology. It turns out that they run an orthopedic clinic where they peddle homeopathic remedies. In the scientific world, such low quality articles will disappear over time or they will be cited as an example of poor science. For these authors, they have no reputational stake in the scientific community so they have very little to lose by having their names attached to such garbage. Rather, the infamy generated by it will make it easier for potential orthopedic patients to find them and they are likely to make even more money as a consequence. Like with news, a certain level of literacy is required when delving into original research. I encourage you to develop said literacy and if you’re interested I’m happy to point you toward reputable sources.

Thanks for the honest, respectful response. I obviously have no scientific background (retired USCG mechanic) and don’t have the time or inclination to go back to school.  I’m being totally honest when I say I don’t understand how so many dr’s with an opposing point of view are completely dismissed, blacklisted, and canceled.  My suspicion is because of the money involved. It’s very well documented that covid death numbers are hugely inflated.  If someone has covid but dies of something else,  there are  instances of the death certificate listing covid as the cause of death. Hospitals get more money for covid deaths of Medicare patients, that’s a fact. 

[outdoorstom]

38 minutes ago, Chef said:

Yes no one in the trial group for either Pfizer or Moderna was hospitalized or died from covid.


Is there something you are not understanding ?


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Is that still your belief now? Nobody has been injured or died from all these injections? Btw - you never mentioned you were speaking of the trial group.

.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by outdoorstom

[Chef]

Is that still your belief now? Nobody has been injured or died from all these injections? Btw - you never mentioned you were speaking of the trial group.
.
 

As of now the death rate of vaccined Americans is about 1-10,000,000 you tell me If that’s worse than covid or not


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[outdoorstom]

7 minutes ago, Chef said:

As of now the death rate of vaccined Americans is about 1-10,000,000 you tell me If that’s worse than covid or not


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https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/government-database-shows-7-844-injuries-and-181-deaths-following-covid-vaccine-as-of-jan-15-says-childrens-health-defense-301217037.html
These figures are from the governments voluntary reporting system.  Most injuries and deaths aren’t even reported here unfortunately. 

 

[Chef]

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/government-database-shows-7-844-injuries-and-181-deaths-following-covid-vaccine-as-of-jan-15-says-childrens-health-defense-301217037.html
These figures are from the governments voluntary reporting system.  Most injuries and deaths aren’t even reported here unfortunately. 
 

187%35,000,000 is .000005% I’ll take those odds


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[Versatile_Hunter]

40 minutes ago, 9jNYstarkOH said:

@Versatile_Hunter as a scientist where are you on this literature from 2005 bad science on just a different variant that chloroquine was effective against.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/

Full disclosure: I’m a huge fan of chloroquine. My first real science project was when I was 16 years old. I screened combinations of compounds for synergistic antimalarial effects. Chloroquine was one of them  

That’s said, a lot of shit kills or abrogates (fucks up) bacteria, viruses, and parasites. In vitro studies, like the one you link to, are great at teasing apart certain mechanistic details of function. The more relevant question (as it applies to immediate epidimeogical impact) is how and when do you administer therapeutics such that you render said pathogen harmless and without hurting the host. This is where Trump’s bleach musings fell apart. Bleach kills Covid.  It also kills human cells. 

[Northcountryman]

2 hours ago, Chef said:

Ok so you understand wrong... vaccines in general do not prevent a virus from entering your body. They prevent you from developing clinical diseases. The Pfizer and moderna are 95% effective at this. They are 100% effective at preventing hospitalization and death. This would allow society to return to normal. As far as transmission goes. It most likely will stop
Transmission they just can’t say for sure yet.

Get better news sources


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I’m afraid society will not be returning to normal anytime soon my friend ; like it or not , we’re stuck with COVID -19 Indefinitely, if not permanently. Vaccine is not going to make any difference  in that . Hopefully, once we reach herd immunity , it will be rendered relatively innocuous, Though , similar to other rhinoviruses like the common cold ; but we have a LONG way to go till reach that point . 

[9jNYstarkOH]

18 minutes ago, Versatile_Hunter said:

Full disclosure: I’m a huge fan of chloroquine. My first real science project was when I was 16 years old. I screened combinations of compounds for synergistic antimalarial effects. Chloroquine was one of them  

That’s said, a lot of shit kills or abrogates (fucks up) bacteria, viruses, and parasites. In vitro studies, like the one you link to, are great at teasing apart certain mechanistic details of function. The more relevant question (as it applies to immediate epidimeogical impact) is how and when do you administer therapeutics such that you render said pathogen harmless and without hurting the host. This is where Trump’s bleach musings fell apart. Bleach kills Covid.  It also kills human cells. 

The side effects seem pretty minute when taken in regular doses and it has been widely used for decades for malaria. why does the fda say not to use against covid is it because the amount needed is in the over dose level that seems to be where the  irregular heartbeat side effect comes in to play.

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682318.html

[Chef]

The side effects seem pretty minute when taken in regular doses and it has been widely used for decades for malaria. why does the fda say not to use against covid is it because the amount needed is in the over dose level that seems to be where the  irregular heartbeat side effect comes in to play.
https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682318.html

They say don’t use it because it doesn’t FU((in work what don’t u understand


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[Versatile_Hunter]

1 hour ago, outdoorstom said:

Thanks for the honest, respectful response. I obviously have no scientific background (retired USCG mechanic) and don’t have the time or inclination to go back to school.  I’m being totally honest when I say I don’t understand how so many dr’s with an opposing point of view are completely dismissed, blacklisted, and canceled.  My suspicion is because of the money involved. It’s very well documented that covid death numbers are hugely inflated.  If someone has covid but dies of something else,  there are  instances of the death certificate listing covid as the cause of death. Hospitals get more money for covid deaths of Medicare patients, that’s a fact. 

Thanks for the honest, respectful response. I obviously have no scientific background (retired USCG mechanic) and don’t have the time or inclination to go back to school. 

-Well thank you for your service. You absolutely don't have to go back to school to learn how to find reputable sources. Your assumption, though, is emblematic of the broad scientific community’s communication failure. It is our responsibility to make this stuff accessible to all, but most of us sidestep this responsibility and fail to engage in outreach efforts. Fauci is great, but if you don't like his politics as you perceive them, he becomes easy to dismiss. The Covid taskforce communications efforts have been abysmal. I really hope this changes.

 

I’m being totally honest when I say I don’t understand how so many dr’s with an opposing point of view are completely dismissed, blacklisted, and canceled.  My suspicion is because of the money involved.

-I suspect that this notion of "completely dismissed, blacklisted, and cancelled" is received wisdom. It's actually rather easy to engage with peddlers of disinformation. Many of these folks would prefer to play the "cancelled" tune because it's easier than substantiating false claims. The 2nd point I want to make is that some of these doctors you speak of are not experts on the subject matter and have no business offering their uninformed opinions. The article you shared of the orthopedists offering a very unscholarly and flawed review of Covid is a prime example of this.

 

It’s very well documented that Covid death numbers are hugely inflated. If someone has Covid but dies of something else,  there are  instances of the death certificate listing Covid as the cause of death. Hospitals get more money for Covid deaths of Medicare patients, that’s a fact.

-Look, if someone gets run over by a truck no one says, "hey, that guy was diabetic so he was less likely to recover." The fact is he died of blunt trauma and internal bleeding. The same is true with Covid. Obesity, heart disease, and old age do not mean that your life is meaningless or that you’re on the precipice of death so Covid infection is irrelevant. No, these people died of Covid. Changing this standard now would be illegitimate.

[9jNYstarkOH]

5 minutes ago, Chef said:

They say don’t use it because it doesn’t FU((in work what don’t u understand


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Sorry and no disrespect but I am not going to taking medical advice from a chef but will continue to read what the scientists have written and I am currently discussing it with someone that says he is a scientist.