The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[Skillet]

I wasn't questioning what a blowhard is but rather your use of it.

Thanks for clearing up that your not even in an AR area.

Not yet.

[nyantler]

I understand that logic but have they tried to quantify the effects n a study?

The whole idea of modern deer management was based on it... it is by far the most lacking natural occurance in the whitetail world... the studies I have done with captive deer back in the 90's where ratios are near 1:1 show exactly what I explained to you... young bucks are very submissive when there is a balanced age structure and strict hierarchy... does will gravitate towards the stronger more dominant bucks in the group... not to say that in the wild there wouldn't be isolated cases of aggressive young bucks during the 2nd and 3rd estrus cycles... but in the cases I've seen personally... as the buck:doe ratio got closer almost all does got bred early seeking out the mature more dominant bucks... and as a general rule young bucks became very subdued because older bucks get so aggressive that they will actually kill young bucks that got too agressive.. I've even seen the most dominant of the group kill other mature bucks... in fact in one case a nine year old buck had to be removed from the herd because he was getting too dangerous during the breeding season. In NY over the years the ratios got so far away and the lack of older age classes allowed young bucks to be the main breeders in many herds, and because hunter took so many bucks compared to does there were not enough bucks to get most does bred early... this leads to later born fawns.. lesser body weights for fawns entering their first winter.. and all around tougher time for deer.

[nyantler]

The issue is bigger than AR's in my mind. The DEC is becoming more restrictive in area's where deer are plentiful for what reason. DMU permints in 4W are already low probability to be issued. Now we a shooter buck is 3 or better on one side. The rpple effects will be far worse than hunters not getting deer economically, I think. Who's gonna hunt there if you can't take anything in the rea unless its an older buck. Besides, plenty of us are still in it for theeating. So with low probability on DMU permits in 4W, thanks for a lot of hunters likely going hungry. I'm sure I will have many kind words to say about the DEC when I'm siting in my stand with NO DMU permits watching an endless parade of does walking by me. Oh and by the way,...... The AR's are a feel good with no bioloical benefit at all. Thanks again DEC.

I'd hunt there... with all the hunters leaving... I'd have the whole WMU to myself!! AR's would definitely have a biological benefit... it's just at this point there is no imminant "threat" to the whitetail herd biologically.. that in no way means that herd health and structure are optimum.. just adequate... if you're shooting for adequate things are just fine... if you're shooting for better than average... better age structure and ratios need to be developed in some areas. Why would we not want the better herds if its possible? I notice too that lots of you guys have little confidence in your ability to find and kill an older buck... even though many of you have never tried.

[Dom]

Like I said ..I wish I were naive...but it does happen a lot whether ppl care to admit it or not and just wait....There are going to be a whole lot of ppl with felonies that use to be able to hunt...and now CAN'T legally...I really thought the crossbow legislation would have gone through this year...so there will be all kinds of rarely used "bow" tags and many more "woman" hunters tagging put this year....and more than likely grama's... grandpas ...older moms and dads hunting again......" Hey dad...congrats you just got a nice 8pt...down by the creek at 10:45...just in case anyone asks."...

Maybe we should have a photo on our hunting license and our tag's.I know this will only help if hunter's are questioned/caught with the deer.I also know you cant stp some from doing what they want to do,The DEC need's to stop allowing the transfer of tag's except to trade for an area that you would like to hunt.Now I am in trouble for my opinion.

[eagle rider]

Is nobody else getting this,.... 3 on one side plus low chances of doe permits in most of the 4's means no chance of venison on the Christmas table. Since the chances of seeing a shooter are already low to begin with. You want better genetics, it ain't only about controlling what bucks are shooters. You need to tighten the buck to doe ratio as well and cull older does out of circulation. Limited DMU permits make this nearly impossible for rifle hunters. Places like Anticosti Island, or the Sancutary or Tara Preserve have the genetics they do because the couple AR restrictions with doe culling. I hunt in Northwestern Virginia as well. They have AR's requiring a 16" outside spread. Fines start at $500 for non qualifying deer. We shoot beautiful deer there. They also have a doe cull hunt in December. No special tags and two Doe a day. Much different from NYS, you actually see as many bucks walking around in Dec as you would see does.

[eagle rider]

Is nobody else getting this,.... 3 on one side plus low chances of doe permits in most of the 4's means no chance of venison on the Christmas table. Since the chances of seeing a shooter are already low to begin with. You want better genetics, it ain't only about controlling what bucks are shooters. You need to tighten the buck to doe ratio as well and cull older does out of circulation. Limited DMU permits make this nearly impossible for rifle hunters. Places like Anticosti Island, or the Sancutary or Tara Preserve have the genetics they do because the couple AR restrictions with doe culling. I hunt in Northwestern Virginia as well. They have AR's requiring a 16" outside spread. Fines start at $500 for non qualifying deer. We shoot beautiful deer there. They also have a doe cull hunt in December. No special tags and two Doe a day. Much different from NYS, you actually see as many bucks walking around in Dec as you would see does.

[nyantler]

You need to contact the DEC and get an explaination for why they are limiting doe permits in your area...

[burmjohn]

Is nobody else getting this,.... 3 on one side plus low chances of doe permits in most of the 4's means no chance of venison on the Christmas table. Since the chances of seeing a shooter are already low to begin with. You want better genetics, it ain't only about controlling what bucks are shooters. You need to tighten the buck to doe ratio as well and cull older does out of circulation. Limited DMU permits make this nearly impossible for rifle hunters. Places like Anticosti Island, or the Sancutary or Tara Preserve have the genetics they do because the couple AR restrictions with doe culling. I hunt in Northwestern Virginia as well. They have AR's requiring a 16" outside spread. Fines start at $500 for non qualifying deer. We shoot beautiful deer there. They also have a doe cull hunt in December. No special tags and two Doe a day. Much different from NYS, you actually see as many bucks walking around in Dec as you would see does.

And having no AR's in your area would help the buck to doe ratio how?

[Doc]

Is nobody else getting this,.... 3 on one side plus low chances of doe permits in most of the 4's means no chance of venison on the Christmas table.

I have no clue what the situation is in area 4S, but potential scenarios such as what you are describing is the chief reason that I am against universal statewide ARs. I don't think that I will ever see negative effects of AR where I hunt, but for those that do have population/habitat/climate problems and super-low or no antlerless permits, I do see situations where hunters would simply drop out of deer hunting, and logically so. There is no point to spending hard earned cash on a license only to be effectively told that you are very likely not going to be able to legally shoot anything. ARs that are placed on an area simply to satisfy some general rule of management without an ounce of verification that they are suitable for that area seems to me quick way to dump yet another bunch of hunters.

The point is that there has to be some study and reasoned assessment of how ARs will impact the hunting and hunters in each WMU. In other words, a bit of science applied rather than broad-brushed, arbitrary implementation based on a one-size-fits-all mentality). I know everyone looks for the simple answers, but beware of unintended consequences.

[nyantler]

It seems that many of you hunters that are against AR's do not have a good grasp on how deer management works... I'm not sure where you are getting your information on whitetails... but much of it is incorrect... in order to be able to discuss an issue properly you should at least know something about that topic... in the past there wasn't much on whitetail biology or deer management available to hunters, but today there is a ton of info out there. Educate yourself on the subject... it will make it so much easier to have an intelligent conversation... having differences in opinion is great... thats how we get a good debate going to discuss these kinds of issues... its not about changing minds, but more about getting intelligent info from both sides to better understand or to find common ground.

[Doewhacker]

Yea I can't figure out how Skillet would have thought you were a condescending dink, thats a real mystery.....

I bet if you repeat your opinions 10,000 more times people will agree with you.

[Doewhacker]

And having no AR's in your area would help the buck to doe ratio how?

Probaly the same way having them in place will help the buck to doe ratio. Meaning it won't either way.

[eagle rider]

Calling the DEC. The issue in my mind, is bigger with broader impact, No DMU Permits + AR in 4W will likely drive hunters away from the area because they will not likely be able to take deer, or increase poaching. Either is bad, but the first is worse. The economy in Delaware County is very fragile. If you make is so that hunters move to different areas/counties local business will suffer even more. Residents of the county will loose tax revenue and County-wide services will become even more curtailed. Let's face it, most of upstate is hanging on by its fingernails as it is. I think this can be the final nail in the coffin for many upstate communities.

[Fairgame]

I'm my area the chances of shooting a legal buck have increased dramatically after the first year. 6 years into the program there is no problem seeing bucks now between 1.5 to 3.5 years old.

[Doewhacker]

According to the DEC monetary impact on the communities will be minimal, I tend to agree with them. And I think "upstate" is hanging on just fine.

I don't support AR's and in my opinion they don't go far enough to have an impact. Seem's like a half assed attempt to quiet some groups down, the same groups do not want stricter AR's put into place.

I find it interseting how many hunter's cannot age a deer if their life depended on it, mistaking Button bucks for does is crazy to me, balking at a 1.5 year and killing a 2.5 year old and thinking that is any better is crazy to me too. I'm not suggesting being able to tell a 4 yr old from a 5yr old is important, but maybe we should educate hunters on how to tell which buck is a 3.5 yr old compared to a 1.5 or 2.5 yr old and then let them decide what to shoot.

[eagle rider]

I agree with the a general lack of knowledge when it comes to hunters aging deer. That said last year I shot a 3.5 year old 5 pointer, four on one side and the other was a long spike. He was genitically challenged for sure. I think the economy where we are is very much at risk. There are not a lot of jobs in the area. Every dollar spent counts. Start making things harder for hunters and they will just go elsewhere. The folks up there will just suffer more than they already have. I hope this isn't a myopic plan the DEC has, but something tells me it just might be.

[Fairgame]

The only way a hunter can get a good education is in the field. Many hunters including myself in the AR areas never could get that education cause there really wasn't a variety of bucks in different age groups around. Big reason why it's on points and not on age. Most hustlers can't learn the difference

[eagle rider]

Virginia uses spread. 16" outside = 3.5 years. Pop one smaller and it will cost you $500. $250 of it goes to the guy who reports you. Like I said in an earlier post between that and an aggressive doe cull season in December, and you see almost 1:1 bucks and does walking around. Seems to me like they got a handle on this. I hunt near Flint Township in Faquier County. This is not a poor county at all. Its a lot of vineyards and horse properties.

[Doewhacker]

The only way a hunter can get a good education is in the field. Many hunters including myself in the AR areas never could get that education cause there really wasn't a variety of bucks in different age groups around. Big reason why it's on points and not on age. Most hustlers can't learn the difference

Or people could look around at the various sources on the internet and videos that are out there to learn how to age a little better. It ain't rocket science.

[Fairgame]

It's not rocket science. Internet can only do so much. I thought I was a pro before I could actually experience it in the woods. Big difference. With the experience I now have I can better see the difference. Still not a pro but have a much better idea on what to look for.

[Skillet]

It seems that many of you hunters that are against AR's do not have a good grasp on how deer management works... I'm not sure where you are getting your information on whitetails... but much of it is incorrect... in order to be able to discuss an issue properly you should at least know something about that topic... in the past there wasn't much on whitetail biology or deer management available to hunters, but today there is a ton of info out there. Educate yourself on the subject... it will make it so much easier to have an intelligent conversation... having differences in opinion is great... thats how we get a good debate going to discuss these kinds of issues... its not about changing minds, but more about getting intelligent info from both sides to better understand or to find common ground.

Wow............

[A Sportsman]

I agree with Doc's comment on how we can't have a one-size fits all approach to the deer hunting regs. Especially with AR. Its great to see that some areas where there were very few nice deer walking around, now have better hunting. That said, to me its not something that is necessary statewide.

Along that same line of thinking, I don't think the one buck rule is good at all. Different areas of the state have different management needs. Restricting all hunters to one buck woudl benefit some areas and hurt others. Also, if the deer herd can support hunters taking more than 1 buck in a given area, then why not allow hunters to do what they love?

[growalot]

It will be interesting to see in these new AR areas, where doe tags were not adjusted to hinder the possible thought..." Crap..it's a 3x2...better take it ...before I end up with tag soup" " Oh...it's a 6pt better..ect..."...will fair in this protect the young and let them grow mantra....Is that the hope? ...the first year take all those medium age bucks...leave the babys...ie spike and four pts...so the older bucks that slipped through make it....but then you just have a repeat...the following year....when doe tags are not adjusted properly address the meat hunters...or does the DEC think ppl aren't meat hunters any more?

[Larry]

One guy said it earlier the DEC. has stated AR’s are not necessary for whitetail management. So adjusting DMP’s up or down has nothing do with the AR program. It has to do with the state of the deer population in that WMU.

Contrary to what some of you think killing doe’s doesn’t give you more bucks it gives you fewer deer. (notice I said doe’s not antlerless)

[nyantler]

Yea I can't figure out how Skillet would have thought you were a condescending dink, thats a real mystery.....

I bet if you repeat your opinions 10,000 more times people will agree with you.

I expected you to have trouble with the truth... lets talk about rocket science instead... neither of us know anything about that... would make for an intelligent conversation, I'm sure we'd both learn a lot.