Who wants Yearling Buck Protection with ARs in their area?

[tony m]

Not in 9x. The DEC releases nuisance bears behind our hollow. And, too many coyotes. People stating around there are not seeing as many deer.

Any connection? I am not sure. But if I see a spike next year, I am going for my meat.

[SteveB]

Topic for another thread, but not rejoining.

[nyantler]

A 3pt/side AR which has been discussed forever.

Anytime AR is mentioned, there will be those who say it should be statewide.

Left nyb twice - 1st about 5 yrs ago didn't renew for a year or so.

Rejoined again and quit when the ex pres Kevin lied about the type of non profit charter nyb was on another forum.

The NYB lying has been going on for years.. I caught them in one 15 years ago..concerning the production cost of Full Draw.. their magazine... haven't been a member since.

[SplitG2]

on my farm we have been passing bucks under 3 years of age for the past 8 years. i have seen an improvement but still see alot of yearling bucks. I don't think AR based on point system is the right approuch. Width needs to be part of it as well. I also don't want AR to be forced on young/new hunters or older hunters(above 65yrs).

[Five Seasons]

problem with 3pt a side is we have a huge heavy beam 6 on cameras this year. Most guys would mount this buck including myself. But he doesn't pass ARs. I dont know the answer.

I'm not sure why NYB got brought up in this topic. I'm almost positive I read on their website that they do not support them.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

How can a 6 point not pass a 3 point AR?

[phade]

I think he meant a 4pt a side.

[Five Seasons]

I guess i'm confused. I thought the brow tines didn't count. Think how many scrubby 6 point 1.5 year olds would pass ARs. Like you said, in my area there are many 6 and even 8 point 1.5 year olds. just great genetics. Heck my 5 this year was 150lb and did not have a spindly rack. it's why i'm conflicted on ARs because i think spread, tine mass and height needs to come into play and then it just gets messy when you're drawing or getting ready to pull the trigger. We all know some bucks only give you mere seconds at a good shot.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Belo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

A point is measurable at 1" from the surface of the intersecting antler. can be anywhere....brow...sticker....droptine. The best way to harvest a mature Buck is by body. AR is used to try and make it easier. I have seen many 1.5's in AG area that have very good body size, probably a combo of food and an early birth. Especially out here by us antlers can give a very false indication of age.

[Five Seasons]

thanks for the clarification and that's why they're difficult my big 8 was 20 pounds smaller than my 5. Genetics lead to different deer size.

[Larry]

Just remember the DEC just started the 5 year plan so there wont be any big changes till the end of the plan. well with the exception of the use of cross-bows in all deer seasons.

[phade]

A point is measurable at 1" from the surface of the intersecting antler. can be anywhere....brow...sticker....droptine. The best way to harvest a mature Buck is by body. AR is used to try and make it easier. I have seen many 1.5's in AG area that have very good body size, probably a combo of food and an early birth. Especially out here by us antlers can give a very false indication of age.

This is indeed the reason why 1.5s can have 6, 8, etc. points. I have a 12 point 1.5 on the wall from my early bowhunting days.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Phade. I have my share of 6's and 8's that I took years ago that fit that same description. some of the hunting styles that we used to do alot (deer drives) make it very difficult to make that split second decision on whether to take it or not. Many times in the stand I can evaluate better or even still hunting but drives add some complexity.

[nyantler]

First. I do not support AR. but I will tell you from my experience in the woods the 2.5 year old is a more difficult animal to hunt than a 1.5. I think with that increase more make it through to 3.5 and higher. The success rate on 2.5's I don't think will match the success rate on 1.5's

Exactly right... for every year that live they get that much harder to kill and that much closer to becoming a mature buck. The more restrictive the AR though the greater the chances of stretching the age structure beyond 3.5... once the age stucture balances, attitudes change about passing bucks voluntarily because there is a bigger crop of adult bucks to hunt.. once a significant representation of older aged bucks is achieved rarely is there a need to continue mandatory AR's... hunters are more apt to pass on younger bucks voluntarily because of the increased selection of mature bucks. Mandatory AR's tend to speed up the education process for hunters... where voluntary AR's initially tend to take forever because of the itchy trigger finger. The hunters like the idea of passing but just don't have the restraint..

Edited January 26, 2013 by nyantler

[trophywhitetailsupplies]

We in Wisconsin have talked for years about antler restriction. There is some great feedback on this in this forum so thank you.

[reeltime]

Correct, PA has no antler restrictions for hunters under the age of 15. Some sections of PA have AR of 4 points per side, some have 3 depending on herd density/genetics/habitat/etc. I'm not positive but I think military and senior citizens don't have AR implemented on them either.

pa no longer has a 4 point zone. there is a 3 point zone which is 3 points per side. the rest of the state has a 3 up rule.

the 3 up rule means 3 points up on the main beam NOT including the brow tine, the main beam counts as a point.

jr. license holders (16 and under) , mentored youth hunters (up to age 11) , disabled hunters ( with a disability permit), and active military personel can go by the old antler requirements 2 points to a side or a spike at least 3" long.

senior hunters must follow the current antler restrictions in place.

[donjohnk]

Im for AR... If been hunting PA for the last 10yrs. I like what I've seen so far. I havent shot a wall hanger every year but the group I hunt with does. I would like to see 1 buck a year before AR regs.

[nyantler]

I have a theory about the 1 buck rule... and that is that although there are a lot of guys saying they would like to see it... I'm betting that if there was really a big push for a 1 buck rule you'd see just as much opposition to it... once hunters realize that their season could be over on the first day of bow season.. they would be all up in arms about not being able to hunt for a buck during the gun season. Why would hunters give up being able to take a buck in archery and gun with an AR imposed and opt for having their season cut short for with a one buck rule.. when both accomplish similar or the same objective?

How about this senario? You take a yearling buck during the bow season... you hunt the gun with only a DMP tag left and on opening day you see the biggest buck you've ever had a chance at in the woods standing 40 yards broadside in front of you.. how do you think that will play out? I'm guessing that even the ethical hunters that don't pull the trigger.. will be a bit upset that they signed on to the 1 buck rule instead of the AR. Just my thought on the subject.

[phade]

I have a theory about the 1 buck rule... and that is that although there are a lot of guys saying they would like to see it... I'm betting that if there was really a big push for a 1 buck rule you'd see just as much opposition to it... once hunters realize that their season could be over on the first day of bow season.. they would be all up in arms about not being able to hunt for a buck during the gun season. Why would hunters give up being able to take a buck in archery and gun with an AR imposed and opt for having their season cut short for with a one buck rule.. when both accomplish similar or the same objective?

How about this senario? You take a yearling buck during the bow season... you hunt the gun with only a DMP tag left and on opening day you see the biggest buck you've ever had a chance at in the woods standing 40 yards broadside in front of you.. how do you think that will play out? I'm guessing that even the ethical hunters that don't pull the trigger.. will be a bit upset that they signed on to the 1 buck rule instead of the AR. Just my thought on the subject.

There's a huge difference Joe. OBR is CHOICE. Mandatory AR is MANDATORY. The objective for OBR is to create a more structurally sound "deer herd" as a whole while at the same time employing the freedom of choice. Mandatory AR advances 1.5 to 2.5 as its goal, by way of mandating and removing choice.

A joker willing to break the law under AR is a joker willing to break the law under OBR. A joker is a joker is a joker is a joker, regardless of the situational law.

If a hunter chooses to shoot a 1.5 buck in bow, then so be it. They chose to do so. Their season is "over" at their own doing. I suspect the following season, that 1.5 voluntarily gets a pass by most hunters, and the ones who don't...are likely the ones who don't/cannot devote the time, energy or resources to being selective, or they simply enjoy hunting for their own reasons that lead to a 1.5 being a trophy or worthy kill for them. People become super-selective when they only have one buck tag to burn.

Ohio doesn't seem to have much issue with it, nor does Kentucky, or Indiana, etc. etc. etc. And those states, while not perfect, have just as many brown it is down hunters as we do (at least in %), but they're light years ahead of NY in terms of management AND record books, yet if the average joe wants to shoot a spiker, he can. Choice and education will work.

Resistance...yep...it'll be there for every change. People don't like change. There are four stages to it, including the biggest, "what is in it for me?" If you can manage change in a base - you are likely very successful in life. Move gun season opener to Monday after T-day, 9 day season, one week with a weekend following. OBR. Instant turnaround compared to prior results when paired with a legit doe management plan. Managing DMPs a little better - that's a topic that needs a ton of work, moreso than buck harvest class imo.

Edited January 28, 2013 by phade

[jjb4900]

I have a theory about the 1 buck rule... and that is that although there are a lot of guys saying they would like to see it... I'm betting that if there was really a big push for a 1 buck rule you'd see just as much opposition to it... once hunters realize that their season could be over on the first day of bow season.. they would be all up in arms about not being able to hunt for a buck during the gun season. Why would hunters give up being able to take a buck in archery and gun with an AR imposed and opt for having their season cut short for with a one buck rule.. when both accomplish similar or the same objective?

How about this senario? You take a yearling buck during the bow season... you hunt the gun with only a DMP tag left and on opening day you see the biggest buck you've ever had a chance at in the woods standing 40 yards broadside in front of you.. how do you think that will play out? I'm guessing that even the ethical hunters that don't pull the trigger.. will be a bit upset that they signed on to the 1 buck rule instead of the AR. Just my thought on the subject.

The great thing about the one buck rule is that guys who are happy taking any buck can still do that and the guys who want bigger bucks can still pass on the smaller bucks and wait for that huge buck. If you ask me, the only thing worse than taking one yearling buck (according to some) would be taking two. If you really think about it, being allowed to take 2 nice mature bucks from the same area is not that great of an idea either.

Edited January 28, 2013 by jjb4900

[phade]

The great thing about the one buck rule is that guys who are happy taking any buck can still do that and the guys who want bigger bucks can still pass on the smaller bucks and wait for that huge buck. If you ask me, the only thing worse than taking one yearling buck (according to some) would be taking two. If you really think about it, being allowed to take 2 nice mature bucks from the same area is not that great of an idea either.

The number show only about 5-10k hunters take two bucks a year here in NY. Sounds absurdly low, right? Well, it is. My talks with Hurst, et al, about such scenarios is that most hunters will plug the first buck in bow, usually a dink, and then "hold out" for a mature buck in gun season. Or same theory goes with a small buck in gun, and then a mature one in late season. Not many people take mature bucks in general regardless of the state - because they're hard to kill. Hence, not many people take the two bucks. Some no doubt take two dinks...for whatever the reason.

But, this is opinion on my part, the bigger % of damage likely comes from the above scenario about taking antler and then holding out. Limit it to one buck, and all of a sudden, people end their season early, or they start becoming super selective without that 1.5 y/o bone being tagged. Most 1.5s are going to be passed voluntarily.

Edited January 28, 2013 by phade

[growalot]

My talks with Hurst, et al, about such scenarios is that most hunters will plug the first buck in bow, usually a dink, and then "hold out" for a mature buck in gun season. Or same theory goes with a small buck in gun, and then a mature one in late season.

In those conversations did he factor in the .....lets face it ppl....thousands of guys hunting off the wife,daughter,mother in-laws tag? Be cause I know several yahoos that do that... I Believe the DEC doesn't give a rats backside which just burns me...Well these guys are just so "in" though...anyways......

Talking of "dinks" being taken then holding out for the big boys.......limiting 1 buck per hunter will be a God send for the DEC...just think of how many "new hunters" they'll be selling licenses too.

Buy the way.....most guys I know hold out for a big buck in bow season...if he's seeing families that are taking "dink bucks" early .......then someone with the same name is landing a "big buck".... later in the family...I'd bet money on the non hunting license holder as the one tagging the "dink"...Practice bucks....makes me want to vomit!

[phade]

In those conversations did he factor in the .....lets face it ppl....thousands of guys hunting off the wife,daughter,mother in-laws tag? Be cause I know several yahoos that do that... I Believe the DEC doesn't give a rats backside which just burns me...Well these guys are just so "in" though...anyways......

Talking of "dinks" being taken then holding out for the big boys.......limiting 1 buck per hunter will be a God send for the DEC...just think of how many "new hunters" they'll be selling licenses too.

Buy the way.....most guys I know hold out for a big buck in bow season...if he's seeing families that are taking "dink bucks" early .......then someone with the same name is landing a "big buck".... later in the family...I'd bet money on the non hunting license holder as the one tagging the "dink"...Practice bucks....makes me want to vomit!

Sounds like....you are.......rambling about an altogether.....different issue, no? AR and OBR.......doesn't have a single............thing to do with people...................hunting on other people's....................................................tags. That's a seperate......................................................................................................issue.

Jeremy Hurst is also a biologist.........................................................................................................................................................and not a DEC admin/politico office jockey per say. I'm sure if he were not shackled, the system would be.........................................................................................................................................................................................................different than it is now.

AR, while most people believe, will cure cancer, kick Obama out of office, balance the national debt, fix the housing crisis, and bring Elvis back to eating 'nanner and PB sandwhiches, it will not lead to a change in how people hunt on other's tags. Jeremy has never noted to me whether he supports OBR, actually, so I don't know his thoughts on that topic. OBR won't get Obama out either, or any of those things, but let's try to stay on topic, AR and the like.

Edited January 28, 2013 by phade

[growalot]

Lol ...get a tad touchy when asked a question don't we...hahaha...and you were speaking of the one buck only issued mentioned several times in this 14 page thread...by the way the following quote was yours..

But, this is opinion on my part, the bigger % of damage likely comes from the above scenario about taking antler and then holding out. Limit it to one buck, and all of a sudden, people end their season early,

So which topic would you like me to stay on ...and yes my post goes straight to ...Oh ya...YOUR subject of one buck...for it points out an existing problem that will only INCREASE with such a program...defeating the purpose of it in the first place

[phade]

Lol ...get a tad touchy when asked a question don't we...hahaha...and you were speaking of the one buck only issued mentioned several times in this 14 page thread...by the way the following quote was yours..

So which topic would you like me to stay on ...and yes my post goes straight to ...Oh ya...YOUR subject of one buck...for it points out an existing problem that will only INCREASE with such a program...defeating the purpose of it in the first place

Grow, go babble somewhere else if you want to stray. OBR is relative to AR as discussionary alternative - and if you were the investigator you think you are, you'd notice in a few posts before me that it was brought up and even JJB and Joe commented on it. Talking about people using other people's tags is a completely different topic - the lawbreaker under AR is a lawbreaker under no AR and OBR - Period. Go babble elsewhere about the tag use. If you want to argue about AR et al, go for it here.

You and your tin foil hats.

However, Grow, you can pose quality situations from time to time. What's the best answer in your world?

Edited January 28, 2013 by phade