Who wants Yearling Buck Protection with ARs in their area?

[reeltime]

Joe my note was not personally directed at you, its to the hunting fraternity in general.

[Single_shot]

For example,me.NR Super Sportsmen $$$.Plus food,ice,beer gas,property taxes on 2 properties,building materials etc. I bought in NY to get away from AR in Pa. Happy to be able to shoot a legal buck,period.

[nyantler]

Joe my note was not personally directed at you, its to the hunting fraternity in general.

I understand... I was just making a point about the hunters I know that don't like the idea of AR's because they feel they pay a lot of money for a license and should be able to shoot any deer they like... with the added " I don't care about antlers anyway." Yet, they shell out thousands of dollars to hunt big antlered deer in other states. It's all BS.. we all know it's BS, they know it's BS.. why don't hunters just come out and say that they hate the idea of not being able to tell their buddies "I got a buck this year!" .. like somehow not getting a buck makes you less of a hunter... if getting a buck every year is the criteria for being a hunter... then we have a low number of hunters in NY.

I understand that there will always be resistance to AR's.. but I think that the reasons guys give are BS... and they aren't really telling the real reason why they want to kill yearling bucks.. which is because they can't stand the thought of having to tell their buddies that they didn't get a buck. If they say they don't like killing big antlered bucks they are just flat out lying. Usually the ones that can't kill bigger bucks are the ones that say they don't like big antlers. I wish hunters would just be honest.

I agree that AR's are the least of our problems!!

Edited January 16, 2013 by nyantler

[ATbuckhunter]

Im up for extending the AR units. I hunt in an AR restriction area and i love it!

[Doc]

Ha - ha - ha ..... We always get a lot of pages of discussion on this subject, don't we? That's good. Anytime things get a little slow, some body can just start a thread that mentions antler restrictions, and instantly we have a discussion going.

I'm a party-pooper when it comes to this subject .... lol. I really don't care a whole lot. I believe there are bigger fish to fry. I suppose that if I was forced to take a position, it probably would be against AR as an across-the-state regulation, but I really wouldn't get all crazy about it. But then, I live in a WMU of plenty, so there really isn't much of a hardship one way or the other. Heaven help those guys that have trouble just maintaining a deer population, if they ever get saddled with AR on top of that.

I think way too much is made out of this issue when compared with other management issues that are going un-addressed. So anyway, keep up the good fight. It's good for the forum.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Forget the AR....Give shorter seasons, Less tags and no guns during the rut! Now go kill all the little guys you want! That should do it!!

[phade]

I understand... I was just making a point about the hunters I know that don't like the idea of AR's because they feel they pay a lot of money for a license and should be able to shoot any deer they like... with the added " I don't care about antlers anyway." Yet, they shell out thousands of dollars to hunt big antlered deer in other states. It's all BS.. we all know it's BS, they know it's BS.. why don't hunters just come out and say that they hate the idea of not being able to tell their buddies "I got a buck this year!" .. like somehow not getting a buck makes you less of a hunter... if getting a buck every year is the criteria for being a hunter... then we have a low number of hunters in NY.

I understand that there will always be resistance to AR's.. but I think that the reasons guys give are BS... and they aren't really telling the real reason why they want to kill yearling bucks.. which is because they can't stand the thought of having to tell their buddies that they didn't get a buck. If they say they don't like killing big antlered bucks they are just flat out lying. Usually the ones that can't kill bigger bucks are the ones that say they don't like big antlers. I wish hunters would just be honest.

I agree that AR's are the least of our problems!!

I think blanket statements like this are hogwash.

I am anti-AR. I also target mature bucks (loosely as 3.5+) in NY and other states. I also don't make a current habit of killing yearling (or 1.5 y/o) bucks, despite my belief that it is A-OK do so should they (the individual hunter) see fit for their personal situation. It is their situation, not mine, not yours, etc. Beyond designation of a legal doe/buck (ie the 3" rule for gender distinction), I just cannot dictate what is a trophy to someone else, even if I disagree. I think your quest for an X-size buck on the ground with trad equipment is not something I would pursue, but that's your personal situation and quest. My quest isn't something others may agree with or pursue, but guess what, that's just fine by me.

Edited January 17, 2013 by phade

[nyantler]

I think blanket statements like this are hogwash.

I am anti-AR. I also target mature bucks (loosely as 3.5+) in NY and other states. I also don't make a current habit of killing yearling (or 1.5 y/o) bucks, despite my belief that it is A-OK do so should they (the individual hunter) see fit for their personal situation. It is their situation, not mine, not yours, etc. Beyond designation of a legal doe/buck (ie the 3" rule for gender distinction), I just cannot dictate what is a trophy to someone else, even if I disagree. I think your quest for an X-size buck on the ground with trad equipment is not something I would pursue, but that's your personal situation and quest. My quest isn't something others may agree with or pursue, but guess what, that's just fine by me.

Go back and read what I wrote then read your response and tell me how you got what you wrote from what I wrote. What does my quest ( or yours for that matter) have to do with yearling buck protection?

Again you are looking at this from how it affects hunter and not how it affects the deer... this isn't about me agreeing or disagreeing with any hunters' reasoning for why they do what they do... I couldn't care less what other hunters do... this topic for me has nothing to do with how yearling buck protection affects the hunter.. I only look at it from the perspective of the deer and the benefit of the herd...my post has nothing to do with dictating what a trophy is... it was about hunter honesty or lack thereof... what I forgot to add is that it is not just those against AR's that are dishonest about their motives but also those for AR's... and the proof of that is in every post that spouts all the good trophy bucks that will be running around for "hunters to shoot" ... that is trophy management not yearling buck protection... as soon as the word "trophy" comes up when taking about protection of young bucks the conversation is over as far as I'm concerned because that person obviously doesn't know anything about the subject.

I'm not entirely sure that even the DEC motivation for yearling buck protection has as much to do with the deer as it does with some other agenda... but regardless.. any protection of yearling bucks gives a leg up to establishing a better buck age structure.. which as far as I'm concerned is a good step towards better deer management in NY.

[phade]

Go back and read what I wrote then read your response and tell me how you got what you wrote from what I wrote. What does my quest ( or yours for that matter) have to do with yearling buck protection?

Again you are looking at this from how it affects hunter and not how it affects the deer... this isn't about me agreeing or disagreeing with any hunters' reasoning for why they do what they do... I couldn't care less what other hunters do... this topic for me has nothing to do with how yearling buck protection affects the hunter.. I only look at it from the perspective of the deer and the benefit of the herd...my post has nothing to do with dictating what a trophy is... it was about hunter honesty or lack thereof... what I forgot to add is that it is not just those against AR's that are dishonest about their motives but also those for AR's... and the proof of that is in every post that spouts all the good trophy bucks that will be running around for "hunters to shoot" ... that is trophy management not yearling buck protection... as soon as the word "trophy" comes up when taking about protection of young bucks the conversation is over as far as I'm concerned because that person obviously doesn't know anything about the subject.

I'm not entirely sure that even the DEC motivation for yearling buck protection has as much to do with the deer as it does with some other agenda... but regardless.. any protection of yearling bucks gives a leg up to establishing a better buck age structure.. which as far as I'm concerned is a good step towards better deer management in NY.

You mention hunters, hunters, and hunters in that post, and then say they are being dishonest. You never mention age class structure, herd dynamics, carrying capacities, etc. in that post To me, that clearly indicates you are basing that on hunter desire and not herd dynamics.

When Jeremy Hurst comes out and says that AR has no real benefit from their perspective in regard to their management, then that is about as good as it gets since he is this state's whitetail authority (central biologist). He has said AR will be or won't be implemented based on hunter desires - therefore, arguing about herd impact, while noble, is pointless. Our context comes down to HUNTER desires. Black and White. Period.

Direct words:

DEC considers the primary impacts of mandatory antler restrictions to be of a social nature for hunters

and does not anticipate significant biological impacts for deer.

DEC does not consider there to be a compelling biological or management need for mandatory antler

restrictions.

Edited January 17, 2013 by phade

[steve863]

When Jeremy Hurst comes out and says that AR has no real benefit from their perspective in regard to their management, then that is about as good as it gets since he is this state's whitetail authority (central biologist). He has said AR will be or won't be implemented based on hunter desires - therefore, arguing about herd impact, while noble, is pointless. Our context comes down to HUNTER desires. Black and White. Period.

I've made this same point MANY a time on the various AR threads. These guys shoot down what Hurst says, and then post links to QDMA sites as to why everyone in the state should go to AR's. Complete nonsense! QDMA had absolutely NOTHING to do with the states management decisions.

[josephmrtn]

I dont get what there is to fight over, the OP was just asking who wants it...

[phade]

I've made this same point MANY a time on the various AR threads. These guys shoot down what Hurst says, and then post links to QDMA sites as to why everyone in the state should go to AR's. Complete nonsense! QDMA had absolutely NOTHING to do with the states management decisions.

Take that one step further, Hurst at one point in the reports, quotes and sources QDMA authors, researchers, and biologists, to prove the position that it remain "voluntary"...ie via private co-ops, personal decisions, etc. The DEC has on record in the reports stated that the department believes AR should not be mandated.

[phade]

I dont get what there is to fight over, the OP was just asking who wants it...

He also states in his original post that AR is a definitive benefit/improvement. Such a statement belies personal opinion/choice/belief, the very thing people who don't believe that it is an improvement want to protect their right to have.

The thing that really bothers me about AR, is that they quote it as the "easiest" thing, even if it is not the "best" thing to do.

The DEC's research related to "buck hunting" shows that 50% of hunters rate personal choice or freedom to take what they desire to take (ie shoot what they want based on legal tags) as most important. 40% rate opportunity at a mature, large racked buck...and ONLY 10% rate the ability to take two bucks in a season.

NY becoming a OBR state wouldn't be that hard based on that info - in fact that number suggests it would be easier than AR. I also think it'd have better impact while keeping personal choice. Now, that's simply opinion on my part, but OBR has been proven in many states that have comparable soil quality (Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana). Not many states (if at all) have resoundly proven AR to be as effective. I guess to me, it just boggles the brain as to why that isn't the middle road approach - people can shoot a buck of their choosing, while at the same time, improving herd dynamics. Only 5,000 hunters fill both buck tags - but the devil is in the details. A sizeable portion of deer hunters will make different decisions with only one tag to burn.

[Five Seasons]

I dont get what there is to fight over, the OP was just asking who wants it...

i wouldn't call it a fight. A healthy debate with a few people who refuse to see the others side is more like it. If anyone on here thinks their opinions and posts will change anything than that's just silly. I'm hear to kill time and learn and I believe that to be true for most.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Belo

[growalot]

This whole AR thing is a crock period...there a nice bold opinion...I have been reading all the papers and the various posts from around the state several years now....One just can't ignore that across the state we as hunters have been killing some very impressive deer every year....many of these deer are coming ...infact most of these deer are coming out on the non AR units

With the obvious lower snow #'s and the huge increase of land management..... deer herds have very good habitat to fall back on...ppl are getting the need to kill doe.... The majority of hunters that are able to hunt a good number of days do wait....technologies as far as cams ..allow them to see the area deer and opportunities at hand

These same cams are also showing the big deer that survived and hopefully will be around come the following fall...Hey look at the various shed posts on line..

Personally I think some ppl need to get their heads out of magazines and get out in the woods...you may be surprised at the opinions you could actually come up with on your own....

PS...... I went to our camp...the guys didn't do well at all this year..a few doe....I kicked up 15 deer bedded next to the camp...found some massive rub lines where trees were snapped in two and some knocked down the tracks were like cow paths every where...So the deer where there....I haven't been turkey hunting there as much but will be this spring....for the turkey tracks and droppings were beyond great...2 bad hunts had me assuming the #'s were down...but getting out and doing the grid shows me other wise......

[nyantler]

I've made this same point MANY a time on the various AR threads. These guys shoot down what Hurst says, and then post links to QDMA sites as to why everyone in the state should go to AR's. Complete nonsense! QDMA had absolutely NOTHING to do with the states management decisions.

Wrong again Steve.. for your information the biggest lobbies for the yearling buck protection are the QDMA and NYS Deer Management Coalition... they were instrumental in getting the AR's into the areas where they now exist in NY and are working directly with the DEC in doing so. They are also behind the current push for AR's in Central NY...Jeremy Hurst's comments were the least considered when looking at yearling buck protection in NY. You being the armchair informant with no real knowledge of the truth is what fuels the ignorance... also for the record the lead person heading up the push in NY for yearling buck protection which got the ball rolling in the AR WMU's is also the President of the NYS QDMA Chapter. Another example of feeding BS without knowing what the reality is... so the point you made many times on various threads... is the same misinformed point you made here and is truly the "complete nonsense".

[steve863]

Wrong again Steve.. for your information the biggest lobbies for the yearling buck protection are the QDMA and NYS Deer Management Coalition... they were instrumental in getting the AR's into the areas where they now exist in NY and are working directly with the DEC in doing so. They are also behind the current push for AR's in Central NY...Jeremy Hurst's comments were the least considered when looking at yearling buck protection in NY. You being the armchair informant with no real knowledge of the truth is what fuels the ignorance... also for the record the lead person heading up the push in NY for yearling buck protection which got the ball rolling in the AR WMU's is also the President of the NYS QDMA Chapter. Another example of feeding BS without knowing what the reality is... so the point you made many times on various threads... is the same misinformed point you made here and is truly the "complete nonsense".

Never said that the clowns at QDMA weren't pushing for it. Of course they would be. If it were up to them, only QDMA members would be allowed to hunt. The fact of the matter is that DEC has repeatedly said that there is NO biological benefit to AR's. And that AR's are more of a "social" issue among hunters. That is THEIR official statement. It surely isn't the QDMA's, now is it?? Trying to tell us that we should somehow cling to what the QDMA says over what the official DEC positions is completely bogus. You have absolutely NO leg to stand on here.

[Five Seasons]

I have been reading all the papers and the various posts from around the state several years now....One just can't ignore that across the state we as hunters have been killing some very impressive deer every year....

...

Personally I think some ppl need to get their heads out of magazines and get out in the woods...you may be surprised at the opinions you could actually come up with on your own....

so i should educate myself through reading or get in the woods? which is it?

[nyantler]

You mention hunters, hunters, and hunters in that post, and then say they are being dishonest. You never mention age class structure, herd dynamics, carrying capacities, etc. in that post To me, that clearly indicates you are basing that on hunter desire and not herd dynamics.

When Jeremy Hurst comes out and says that AR has no real benefit from their perspective in regard to their management, then that is about as good as it gets since he is this state's whitetail authority (central biologist). He has said AR will be or won't be implemented based on hunter desires - therefore, arguing about herd impact, while noble, is pointless. Our context comes down to HUNTER desires. Black and White. Period.

Direct words:

DEC considers the primary impacts of mandatory antler restrictions to be of a social nature for hunters

and does not anticipate significant biological impacts for deer.

DEC does not consider there to be a compelling biological or management need for mandatory antler

restrictions.

I mentioned hunters because thats what I was talking about was the hunters and why they say they don't like AR's... When I speak about AR's I only speak in terms of age structure.. you can go back and check any AR thread to see that...

As for Jeremy Hurst's statement.. it means little compared to the statements of a biologist like Grant Woods who has spent his career studying whitetail herd biology... experienced hands on research beats anecdotal numbers any day in my book.

[WhitetailAddict11]

I'm all for AR, but I give props to GrowAlot, I found myself agreeing with a lot of what you said. You certainly can't beat boots on the ground, and trail cams have significantly increased our ability to inventory not only the deer on our properties as a whole, but the bucks as well. That point being made, I still wish for AR's, or as an alternative, a longer archery season in the Northern zone for areas outside of ADK park.

[growalot]

Belo ...you having to ask..... does not surprise me...there is a difference to reading about and seeing the pics posted from across this state of buck taken yearly ...and reading in a magazine ones opinion on what everyone else should or should not be doing as far as hunting their particular area...

One shows facts in real results and the other is hypothesis ..see making me pull out the dictionary again...You really need to get out in the woods more.....

hy·poth·e·sis

noun \hī-ˈpä-thə-səs\

plural hy·poth·e·ses

Definition of HYPOTHESIS

1

a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument

b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action

2

: a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences

3

: the "]antecedent clause of a "]conditional statement

See hypothesis defined for English-language learners »

See hypothesis defined for kids »

[nyantler]

Never said that the clowns at QDMA weren't pushing for it. Of course they would be. If it were up to them, only QDMA members would be allowed to hunt. The fact of the matter is that DEC has repeatedly said that there is NO biological benefit to AR's. And that AR's are more of a "social" issue among hunters. That is THEIR official statement. It surely isn't the QDMA's, now is it?? Trying to tell us that we should somehow cling to what the QDMA says over what the official DEC positions is completely bogus. You have absolutely NO leg to stand on here.

They aren't just pushing it.. they are working hand in hand with the DEC... so if the DEC position is so strong.. why are they bending?...They're bending because it's starting to make more sense to them.. you need to go on and read more of the DEC and Jeremy Hurst's latest articles.. You always fail to mention too that what Hurst said pertains to maintaining the health of the current herd which is not unhealthy... so in fact his statement is right on target... there is no imminent danger to NY's deer herd as it stands... the push for yearling buck protections goes beyond a mere herd that can get by.. it goes to the thinking that we should try to maintain optimal health if at all possible.. and optical herd health includes better age structure. I'm okay with either if thats what NY decides, but to make a claim that yearling buck protection - mandated or voluntary - has no benefit to a deer herd... you are absolutely wrong.

Edited January 17, 2013 by nyantler

[steve863]

Why are they bending?? Because they act like cry babies, crying how they don't get to see big bucks since everyone is shooting off the yearlings. So to soothe their tears the DEC gives them AR's as a pacifier, just as you would to a crying baby. That's pretty much all there is to it.

[Doewhacker]

"- has no benefit to a deer herd... you are absolutely wrong"

Nope it doesn't benefit the herd, been over this 1000 times. It doesn't increase the number of "mature" bucks that great either, it does push the kill date back one year for some bucks and increase the pressure on the doe's..Thats it.

Let me guess next you or some one else will say not all does are breed, ect ect.. all incorrect as proven time and time again by DEC.

[growalot]

Let me guess next you or some one else will say not all does are breed, ect ect.. all incorrect as proven time and time again by DEC.

Wrong DW...It's they are bred but by those young buck...that's a baaaddd thing...lol

They may be right though...for while all those Big buck are fighting each other and causing mortal wounds or time killing stress through fighting those young buck will be...sneaking in to do the breeding...Oh no then what?......

Edited January 17, 2013 by growalot