I don't get it

[growalot]

I'm in the waiting room notice DEC sitting across from me guy's and I talking about hunting...I ask are you DEC officer? Yes...can I ask you....crossbow in Turkey before last 2 weeks of bow,do I need my ML tag? "I don't know"

Glad I didn't bother asking if in woods turkey hunting during last 2wks of bow...do you need the ML tag on you if you haven't filled your archery tag.

Edited October 15, 2014 by growalot

[MACHINIST]

I have seen that lately and I feel its because the crossbow thing is so new and they really dont know,but being a DEC officer he "should" know or make a call as soon as he gets a question he cant answer.Leaving it with I don't know doesn't help anyone,including himself when crossbow season starts,how can he police effectively if he himself doesn't know the laws???

[PREDATE]

honest question, when's the last time you seen an ECO actually in the woods?

I never have in 19 years of hunting/trapping. I've only been asked to see my license once and that was on the road inside state lands while we were at our vehicle. Even then he might not have even stepped out of his vehicle. Don't get me wrong, I respect their mission especially as an under-manned force, but the only proof.of their work I see is in the Cuffs & Collars article in the NY outdoor news

Edited October 15, 2014 by PREDATE

[Lawdwaz]

Do you think they'd be more effective walking around the woods?

[DarrenB]

Last year in wmu 4O a few hunting pals of mine were doing a deer drive on public land when at the end of the drive we noticed someone we didn't know coming out of the drive with us with a rifle on his shoulder. We ask who the hell are you and he takes off his camo vest and he says DEC boys lets put the rifles down. All my buddies put their rifles on the ground and were being checked for licenses and then he got to me and said sir please lay you rifle down while I check your license. I said I'm not laying a $900 rifle on the ground in the snow for christ sake. This guy went apeshit after I refused to put my rifle in the snow while he checked my license. I unloaded it and left it on my shoulder. I respect what these guys are doing but what a dick this guy was. Don't be surprised if you have one join in on a hunt with you. lol

[burmjohn]

DEC guy we ran into fishing on the Delaware river couldn't have been a nicer guy. DEC guy I ran into at a checkpoint on 17b in white lake was another story. Some are informed, some are great guys, some are not. Its hit and miss with anything in life.

 

But there is no excuse for them not being able to get you the answer or at as a last resort directing you to someone else that could. 


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[burmjohn]

Do you think they'd be more effective walking around the woods?

They could be if they walked around areas of high complaints and poaching incidents.

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[Doc]

I understand that there can be some growing pains when a new law is being implemented. But, I would think that an agency charged with the responsibility of enforcing laws would be staffed with people who are experts on every aspect of that law. There are things that can be done in parallel and don't always have to be done in series, so there is no reason why you should ever get the "I don't know" answer. These guys should be fully up to speed by now. Even if they have to carry around a cheat sheet for a few weeks, or carry a phone number to an expert, an answer should never be more than a few moments away. My gosh, if those guys don't have the answers, how on earth is a hunter supposed to abide by the law. That's ridiculous.

[Nomad]

I see them all the time,one hunts the farm another lives a mile away,my buddy golfs with another. Great guys.

[ants]

I have only been stopped a few times, while bird hunting, and that was years ago. They were pretty decent. One woman stopped us twice within an hour. Don't know what was up with that, but she was OK.

 I use to get stopped, several times  per season, trout fishing Nine Mile Creek by the same DEC officer. He was a short old man that would stumble around through the woods, way back in. He always wore hip boots and a revolver that looked way too big for him. He was a nice old guy. After he would check your license and catch he would shoot the bull for a while and move on.

[Al Bundy]

I have had visits from DEC maybe 3 years out of the last 4. On opening morning/weekend no less.  They have also come when I target shoot in the summer time. One guy even went so far as to go and "harass" the neighbor into revoking his permission for us to hunt within 500ft of his house.  The neighbor came up to me and told me they knocked on his door and a converstation close to the following happened. DEC: "Come on - you dont really want them hunting there do you?" His reply: "I dont mind, its fine." DEC: "You have a daughter now. You need to think of her. It will only take me a minute to go and tell them no more hunting. Are you sure you dont want me to tell them NO?" Him:" No really, I dont mind."

 

This is what I get to deal with and look forward to. Sorry for the rant semi off topic. It annoys me this happened.  DEC clearly was trying to intimidate this guy into saying no.

[genesee_mohican]

Here is the link that may answer your question:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/68802.html

 

Small Game

License Requirements: A hunting license is needed to use a crossbow to hunt small game species. A turkey permit is also required to hunt turkeys. All crossbow specifications remain in effect.

Crossbows may be used to take the following small game species during their respective open seasons.

• Wild turkey.
• Any other small game or upland game birds.
• Unprotected wildlife (e.g. red squirrels and woodchucks) at anytime.

[growalot]

Thanks GM....it was the inclusion of ...

 

All crossbow specifications remain in effect.

that made me wonder...What is their interpretation of that sentence?  The problem with it is the 2 seasons overlap...so if I'm coming out of the woods the last two weeks of turkey with the cross bow and hold a bow hunting license.. and a regular  but not ML license......If I am stopped and asked about it...who's to say the ECO couldn't just "interpret"  my hunting as deer not turkey and ticket me?....

[LI OUTDOORSMAN]

Thats why I always tell guys to take the time and read the book.Its all in there.

Heres a hypothetical for you..

With the crossbow laws being so new and many ECOS not familiar with them what if he gave you the wrong answer instead of just saying he didnt know?

[growalot]

LI...You won't find many ppl on here that go through the game laws like I do...but some are ambiguous at best in the wording...When this happens I try to get an answer from the DEC....Now mind you this isn't my first rodeo with this issue...I have actually asked questions ..one in particular, about game laws and gotten 4 different answers from two different regional offices..from Captains and Sargent. I have been told when mentioning wording..."Well that's left up to the interpretation of the officer" WTH kind of answer is that! Does that mean we as hunters should be able to leave the interpretation of the game laws to our own discretion as well? Come on!

 

When you step into a high rise or  drive over a bridge and laws have been made to improve the safety of those structures ...Do you think that the construction engineers should be up to date on those laws before drawing up the plans and building begins?...it is their job to be prepared don't you think?

[Doc]

 

With the crossbow laws being so new and many ECOS not familiar with them what if he gave you the wrong answer instead of just saying he didnt know?

Or better yet, how about he says, "I'm not sure but hang on a second while I call regional headquarters and get an answer for you."

 

There really is no excuse for any law enforcement officer to not know what it is that he is supposed to be enforcing. And at the very least, there should never be a situation where he cannot almost instantly get the proper interpretation with a simple phone call.

[DirtTime]

The six years I fished Mallet Pond in Summit, we saw the same female officer every year. She was always polite. Browns Lake, the upper reservior for the Gilboa Dam, we always seen them.

 

I think the "should" know the laws, but, everything changes in NY so much, maybe they can't even keep up.

[Doc]

 

I think the "should" know the laws, but, everything changes in NY so much, maybe they can't even keep up.

And so, what chance does a hunter, fisherman or trapper have. I always have suspected that everytime anyone goes out hunting, fishing or trapping, they likely are breaking some law that they didn't have a clue existed, or that they have misinterpreted because of sloppy wording and ambiguity. We seem to be constantly "set up" by the legal system. However, we do look to enforcement officers to be an authority on the legal code they are enforcing. If they are not, they are not doing their job.

 

[DirtTime]

And so, what chance does a hunter, fisherman or trapper have. I always have suspected that everytime anyone goes out hunting, fishing or trapping, they likely are breaking some law that they didn't have a clue existed, or that they have misinterpreted because of sloppy wording and ambiguity. We seem to be constantly "set up" by the legal system. However, we do look to enforcement officers to be an authority on the legal code they are enforcing. If they are not, they are not doing their job.

 

 

The best we can do is try and keep up ourselves. I hate this use the web for everything $hit! Remember when we used to get the little books? If we had a question we could call and get an answer?

 

I am not sure about everytime, everyone.

 

We have to do the best we can, and try to make sure we know what's what. It might be hard, but so is nailing that 12 pt. Make sure you put as much into knowong the laws as you put into consealment and stand placement.

 

I was shocked to heck last year when I got back into hunting and learned many of the old spots I used to hunt, that were shotgon ( or bow/mz ) only now allow rifles.

 

Things get confusing, but it's our responsability to know and abide by the laws to the fullest we can. That's just my opinion, and I am sure others have a different one.

[mjac]

Thanks GM....it was the inclusion of ...

that made me wonder...What is their interpretation of that sentence?  The problem with it is the 2 seasons overlap...so if I'm coming out of the woods the last two weeks of turkey with the cross bow and hold a bow hunting license.. and a regular  but not ML license......If I am stopped and asked about it...who's to say the ECO couldn't just "interpret"  my hunting as deer not turkey and ticket me?....

All crossbow specifications remain in effect. < That statement means the specifications of the crossbow,  pg 8 of the Law&Reg Guide, basically defines what a legal crossbow is

 

 As for interpretation , if there is a dispute,     ,That's what the judge is for  !!

A ticket does not mean your guilty.  I doubt that the ECO will bother you without evidence, ie,  dragging a deer, etc.  ,,, any violation witten  I have ever heard of  was a slam dunk for them.

The hunting regulation guide has just about all that is needed to know about the laws & regs

Edited October 15, 2014 by mjac

[PREDATE]

I can just hear all the false accusations trickling into the TIPP line. If we as NYS outdoorsmen/women are expected to be stewards of the woods & water then why not just write out the regs in black & white so there is no questioning them. How many kids might be getting taught wrong by misinformed mentors? Kinda counter productive, sort of like not allowing the thousands of hunters that take to the wilds of NYS to shoot ANY wild/feral hogs

[Doc]

Things get confusing, but it's our responsability to know and abide by the laws to the fullest we can. That's just my opinion, and I am sure others have a different one.

Of course we need to do the best we can within the limits of practicality. I have a copy of the Environmental Conservation Law of New York for the years of 1984-1985. It is 3" thick and is some very dense, smallish print that I'm sure almost all hunters have never laid eyes on. That's what it looked like 30 years ago. so I can imagine what it is like today. Couple that with the fact that almost every line can have multiple interpretations depending on the ECO, Judge, or the outdoor enthusiast, and I think it is a fair thing to say that the very best that anyone outside the business of enforcement can do probably isn't anywhere near enough to protect him from stepping over the line regardless of how well intentioned he is.

 

So, when we have people hired to be experts on this stuff, it is entirely reasonable to expect that you will get an answer that is better than a shrug of the shoulders and an, "I don't know" as an answer. When some of the penalties can involve thousands of dollars and the confiscation of hundreds or thousands of dollars of equipment, it sure would be nice to have an LEO offer some kind of answer to a question regarding their area of expertise when asked.

[nyantler]

Even if we as hunters know the laws it still becomes a problem if the enforcers of those laws don't know them... although you may be in the right, it is possible that you still might be ticketed or arrested by an officer that doesn't know the law... meaning that regardless of an outcome in your favor when it's all over... you still will be subject days, months or even years of the inconvenience of fighting the issue.

Or worse yet you will have those breaking the law not being dealt with because the officer doesn't know the law... either way the hunter is the one getting the shaft... it is imperative that law enforcement know the new (and old) laws to affectively do their job and serve the people fairly.

Edited October 16, 2014 by nyantler

[burmjohn]

Even if we as hunters know the laws it still becomes a problem if the enforcers of those laws don't know them... although you may be in the right, it is possible that you still might be ticketed or arrested by an officer that doesn't know the law... meaning that regardless of an outcome in your favor when it's all over... you still will be subject days, months or even years of the inconvenience of fighting the issue.

Or worse yet you will have those breaking the law not being dealt with because the officer doesn't know the law... either way the hunter is the one getting the shaft... it is imperative that law enforcement know the new (and old) laws to affectively do their job and serve the people fairly.

So true.

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[Doewhacker]

Maybe he didn't want to be bothered in the waiting room?