SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[dbHunterNY]

10 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

I have heard of this before as well but if this is their only means of age estimation it would be such a small number that it can't be accurate. After all is that 8pt a 2yr old or 7? How would they know? Them checking butcher shops is such a small portion.


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that's what i'm saying.  however, to be statistically sound they don't have to collect many in a given area.  to be accurate the smaller area the more samples or bucks they have to age. so I don't think they'd have as great of an idea for a WMU versus a region or say buck management zone.

[nyslowhand]

Couple of small wrinkles to the above ideas. Don't you think what the DEC observes at these venison processors might be ~99% legit tags. So what are they really logging into their reports? Don't you think there are numerous Billy Bob shops that cut up deer in their garage as a part time job and really don't care if the deer is tagged, while flying under the DEC's radar? We all know the harvest reports are in the ~45% range versus what deer are actually harvested.What about the mistakenly harvested yearling bucks that the hunter doesn't want to waste his tag on & processes the venison at home. Then there's the yearling bucks, either button or less than 3" that get reported as antlerless, legally? Sure you might use an antlerless tag & check the buck "box", but how's that info used as reportable data? Granted the DEC has no way to accurately report actual (100%) buck harvests in an age structure method.

Surely not criticizing anyone's opinion or claims, I just don't get a warm 'n' fuzzy feeling about what's been offered as actually being truly fact based or an accurate representation of what's really happening. My opinion, take it or leave it!

What's the answer.... Surely not legislation prompted by unhappy. "squeaky wheel" hunters attempting to force their neighboring hunters to hunt as they do. Proposed by legislators that might not have the slightest clue. Then voted on by legislators who I'm certain don't have the slightest inkling about the proposed legislation's merits or ramifications. Literally a political Hot Potato!!!

[Doc]

Whenever these discussions get going, I am always reminded of the following quote:

"According to DEC big game specialist Jeremy Hurst, while the DEC supports voluntary antler restriction programs, it does not see a critical biological need or compelling management advantage to mandate such restrictions, adding that agency biologists see no specific management benefit associated with the AR program and do not consider antler restrictions as necessary to improve herd condition."

[growalot]

Thank you....

[phade]

But but but there's science involved! Lol.


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[phade]

13 hours ago, Trial153 said:

Yep it's going through the roof lol. DEC is stating a five year increase of less then 5%. Keep in mind that this has only been measured from when...?.....well when AR units were implemented. What would these number look like if AR were taken out of the avg? Most likely the same as the pervious 20 years. You want the same result keep doing the same thing.

% Buck Take ≥ 2.5 Years Old

2010 ....44.9%
2011 .....45.8%
2012....43.7%
2013.....48.2%
2014....51.8 %
2015 ...52.8%

Are ARs the be all end all? No. Are there better regulation changes? Absolutely. However the push back on them will be even greater. Unfortunately we are dealing with dimwits so we're forced to take baby steps.
You want results go to:
1) One buck only tag for the entire season.
2) No either sex tags
3) non transferable DMPs that are unit specific.
4) 9 or 10 day state wide regular season after the rut.

All of these implementations would be better in the long run then AR however the same hunters that are crying in here would cry their eyes out. So your stuck with either the status quo or half ass AR's and we continue to keep NY deer hunting near the bottom of the barrel compared to the rest of the country ( except the NE states which do an even worse job then NY...hard to believe).

Let's step back and look at the big picture...ignore the red mark from a prior discussion.

 

Edited March 2, 2017 by phade

[Buckmaster7600]

that's what i'm saying.  however, to be statistically sound they don't have to collect many in a given area.  to be accurate the smaller area the more samples or bucks they have to age. so I don't think they'd have as great of an idea for a WMU versus a region or say buck management zone.

The point I'm trying to make is NZ regular season take is nothing like SZ. Our gun seasons are 4 weeks longer and our takes are spread out more. Although I don't use a butcher I have been to them plenty of times and most northern zone butchers don't have more than a few deer in them at a time other than early muzzleloader because of antlerless/either sex tags. In the SZ someone can walk in Sunday afternoon of opening weekend and have a pretty good number of deer to evaluate.


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[Trial153]

The big picture is that if you compare southeastern take vs central-west you see a reduction of yearling take of close to 25% keeping in mind that reduction is carried over and has been yearly lowing the total yearling avg on the state level. Every other chart on that page lends it self to a reduced yearling take in AR regions with an increased age class of bucks being harvested.

[Five Seasons]

14 hours ago, stubby68 said:

If a tag I paid for does not get used then yes. Most not all. Some places you are lucky to get one. Some places you only get 2 doe tags. Not everyone gets 5 doe tags. If you only hunt gun then you can only get 4. 2 regular and 2 left over. That's if you hunt in an area with leftovers. With a bow you can get 2 doe tags and thenot have a either sex tag. I don't see why the gun tag can't be either sex.  Then even if you got denied a extra doe tag you could still shoot a doe instead of that young buck. You do not think paying for something then never using it is a waste? Would you pay for a new bow then leave it in the safe and never use it? Why pay for a tag and not fill it. I buy my tags to fill my freezer that is the only thing I need them for. I get to the woods all the time for free don't need to pay for that . I just can not stand spending money for things I get no use out of. Just how I am.  

Here's how I look at paying for something I don't "use".

1. it's an animals life. I have a family of 5 but I don't need the 7+ possible deer that state allows me.

2. eating tag soup for a few years to put a head on the wall doesn't seem like a waste.

3. I cherish above all the time I get in the woods. the tag buys me that "right". Sure I can just go for a hike, but I like to hunt. So even if I don't harvest a deer all year I don't view it as a waste.

4. till it changes, every dollar of your tag goes to the conservation fund. Money well spent in my opinion.

[Larry]

I’m going to address two issues here.

1: do you really want wildlife management though the legislation?

We all know what state we live in. So do you really want the NY state legislature to do an end run around the DEC. If you do think that having the state legislature manage wildlife is the way to go then we should ask for the elimination of the DEC. Weather agree with how the DEC manages wildlife or not it’s still is better than having down state anti-gun and hunting legislators doing the managing for us.

This legislation is being brought forth on behalf of one individual and his origination that origination is The New York Whitetail Management Coalition the founder claims he and his group can manage deer better than the DEC and maybe they can and  maybe they can’t. The point here is do you want anyone group or origination dictating though legislation how the rest of us hunt. Be careful what you wish for you may get it.

2:   Antler Restrictions Not Needed

Pa. hit a mile stone with 59% of the bucks harvested in their deer season, were 2 1/2 years old or better. It sounds like a great accomplishment until you look closer at how it was done. To make it to 59% it took 14 years of antler restrictions with up to 4pt’s on one side. That’s still saying that about 40% of the bucks harvested are 1 ½ year old bucks that have 3 or in some cases 4 points on one side or better. (It’s called high grading). They also in the process decimated there deer herd with the miss guided notion that killing does gives you more bucks.

Now let’s take a look at NY in the same time frame. Here in NY with little in the way of AR’s we stand at 52% of the bucks taken that are 2 ½ years and older. So maybe in 5 or 6 years with passing on smaller bucks being now promoted by the DEC, we could be at the 60% mark and no one will be forced into AR’s. It will be just an attitude change. 

The DEC has given landowners the tools to manage deer on their land the way they want. Landowners under a pretty liberal frame work can manage deer on their property. It will be interesting how the buck harvest age structure comes out for this season on the harvest report.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Larry

[Four Season Whitetail's]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

Whenever these discussions get going, I am always reminded of the following quote:

"According to DEC big game specialist Jeremy Hurst, while the DEC supports voluntary antler restriction programs, it does not see a critical biological need or compelling management advantage to mandate such restrictions, adding that agency biologists see no specific management benefit associated with the AR program and do not consider antler restrictions as necessary to improve herd condition."

Thats why they are doing it for other reasons,,,,Hunter Satisfaction!  People want big and will spend what it takes to get big, Ny is now going to try to latch onto some of that revenue. Ar may be a start but they need more serious changes if they want to attract out of state hunters that will pay big to hunt big. Take guns out of the rut for 2-3 years and watch your bucks grow!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

24 minutes ago, Larry said:

I’m going to address two issues here.

1: do you really want wildlife management though the legislation?

We all know what state we live in. So do you really want the NY state legislature to do an end run around the DEC. If you do think that having the state legislature manage wildlife is the way to go then we should ask for the elimination of the DEC. Weather agree with how the DEC manages wildlife or not it’s still is better than having down state anti-gun and hunting legislators doing the managing for us.

This legislation is being brought forth on behalf of one individual and his origination that origination is The New York Whitetail Management Coalition the founder claims he and his group can manage deer better than the DEC and maybe they can and  maybe they can’t. The point here is do you want anyone group or origination dictating though legislation how the rest of us hunt. Be careful what you wish for you may get it.

2:   Antler Restrictions Not Needed

Pa. hit a mile stone with 59% of the bucks harvested in their deer season, were 2 1/2 years old or better. It sounds like a great accomplishment until you look closer at how it was done. To make it to 59% it took 14 years of antler restrictions with up to 4pt’s on one side. That’s still saying that about 40% of the bucks harvested are 1 ½ year old bucks that have 3 or in some cases 4 points on one side or better. (It’s called high grading). They also in the process decimated there deer herd with the miss guided notion that killing does gives you more bucks.

Now let’s take a look at NY in the same time frame. Here in NY with little in the way of AR’s we stand at 52% of the bucks taken that are 2 ½ years and older. So maybe in 5 or 6 years with passing on smaller bucks being now promoted by the DEC, we could be at the 60% mark and no one will be forced into AR’s. It will be just an attitude change. 

The DEC has given landowners the tools to manage deer on their land the way they want. Landowners under a pretty liberal frame work can manage deer on their property. It will be interesting how the buck harvest age structure comes out for this season on the harvest report.

You will never get the true story on take and age until you have a must report deer/return tags law. DEC picking and choosing what bucks to look at any givin time does not cut it.  Maybe the people that pay the taxes on their property should have the say on what size and how many animals are takin on their property?  Many do and have great results.  

 

[Larry]

 I agree 100% I believe that those who don’t report there harvest are no better than poachers.

[dbHunterNY]

3 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is NZ regular season take is nothing like SZ. Our gun seasons are 4 weeks longer and our takes are spread out more. Although I don't use a butcher I have been to them plenty of times and most northern zone butchers don't have more than a few deer in them at a time other than early muzzleloader because of antlerless/either sex tags. In the SZ someone can walk in Sunday afternoon of opening weekend and have a pretty good number of deer to evaluate.


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yea i agree with you.  more reason why i'm saying it's really hard to take the DEC data and trending that Phade is posting as factual when applied to areas at the WMU level or maybe even region.  i'm sure they vary a bit.  in Phade's defense i do think we are decreasing yearling buck harvest.  at the rate claimed, i'm not so sure and like others said really hard to truely find out.

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

 I agree 100% I believe that those who don’t report there harvest are no better than poachers.

I report all mine, but so long as there was a tag I wouldn't quite put them in the poacher category.

[Two Track]

3 hours ago, Belo said:

I report all mine, but so long as there was a tag I wouldn't quite put them in the poacher category.

How many don't report and then reuse the tag because they used erasable ink or a pencil?

What more accurate harvest numbers, go back to mandatory deer checking stations.  They recorded the hunter tag, sex of the deer, area it was killed in, weight, number of points, etc.  It not to cold, it was a social area, checking out other hunter's takes and swapping stories.

Unless there is an automatic expiration after year or two, it will never leave the books if the AR bill gets passed.

The DEC can modify the current regs as needed, the state will take too long to remove or modify it when it is not needed.  The DEC can do studies as they collect the data any way, will our legislature even have a clue on how to do that correctly to keep changing the hunt laws as the game numbers, sizes, and ages change?

[Larry]

Granted the DEC uses statistical molding to get to their harvest numbers. Their sampling plan gives them an accuracy rate of about 1.5% (about 43% harvest report, deer check stations, checking of game processors) you would never get 100% reporting it would still be in 90% range at best no matter what you do. But it would be a good verification of their molding. So until someone comes up with data that proves theirs is way off then you have to go with theirs.

REMEMBER IN GOD WE TRUST ALL OTHERS BRING DATA.

[Buckmaster7600]

How many don't report and then reuse the tag because they used erasable ink or a pencil?
What more accurate harvest numbers, go back to mandatory deer checking stations.  They recorded the hunter tag, sex of the deer, area it was killed in, weight, number of points, etc.  It not to cold, it was a social area, checking out other hunter's takes and swapping stories.
Unless there is an automatic expiration after year or two, it will never leave the books if the AR bill gets passed.
The DEC can modify the current regs as needed, the state will take too long to remove or modify it when it is not needed.  The DEC can do studies as they collect the data any way, will our legislature even have a clue on how to do that correctly to keep changing the hunt laws as the game numbers, sizes, and ages change?

NY is too big of a state to have mandatory check stations. Not to mention who will pay to man them?

Who is willing to drive 20 or 30 miles one way to check in a deer? I know I'm not.


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[Steve D]

3 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

NY is too big of a state to have mandatory check stations. Not to mention who will pay to man them?

Who is willing to drive 20 or 30 miles one way to check in a deer? I know I'm not.

Not saying I would want to but it can be done. Maine does it for most game.

http://www.maine.gov/ifw/hunting_trapping/hunting/laws/tagging_transportation_registration.htm#registration

Registration Requirements

A person who kills a bear, deer, moose, or wild turkey must:

1. Remain with the animal until it is registered, exceptions found in Time Limits for Registering section.
2. Present that animal for registration in that person’s name at the first open registration station for that animal on the route taken by that person; and
3. Leave the registration seal attached to the animal until the animal is processed and packaged for consumption.
4. Pay a fee of $5.00 for registration of a bear, deer or moose (of this fee, $2.00 is retained by the agent and $1.00 is dedicated to a Deer Habitat Enhancement Fund.) The wild turkey registration fee is $2.00.

• List of Registration Stations (PDF) (bear, deer, and wild turkey)
• List of Moose Registration Stations (PDF)

Time Limits for Registration

A person may not keep an unregistered bear, deer, moose or wild turkey at home or any place of storage for more than 18 hours. This does not apply to an animal that is kept in an official registration station for the animal or at the office of a game warden. A person may leave an unregistered harvested animal in the woods if that person notifies a game warden within 18 hours as to the location of that animal and the circumstances necessitating leaving that animal in the woods.

A person on a hunting trip in an unorganized township and staying at a temporary place of lodging may keep an unregistered harvested animal at the temporary place of lodging for no more than 7 days or until that person leaves the woods, whichever comes first.

A person may not possess a bear, deer, moose, or wild turkey that has not been legally registered except as otherwise provided in the statutes regarding animals causing damage or nuisance.

Bobcats taken by hunting must be tagged by a Department employee within 72 hours from the time they were taken.

[Buckmaster7600]

Not saying I would want to but it can be done. Maine does it for most game.

http://www.maine.gov/ifw/hunting_trapping/hunting/laws/tagging_transportation_registration.htm#registration

Time Limits for Registering section.

Present that animal for registration in that person’s name at the first open registration station for that animal on the route taken by that person; and

Leave the registration seal attached to the animal until the animal is processed and packaged for consumption.

Pay a fee of $5.00 for registration of a bear, deer or moose (of this fee, $2.00 is retained by the agent and $1.00 is dedicated to a Deer Habitat Enhancement Fund.) The wild turkey registration fee is $2.00.

• List of Registration Stations (PDF) (bear, deer, and wild turkey)
• List of Moose Registration Stations (PDF)

Time Limits for Registration

A person may not keep an unregistered bear, deer, moose or wild turkey at home or any place of storage for more than 18 hours. This does not apply to an animal that is kept in an official registration station for the animal or at the office of a game warden. A person may leave an unregistered harvested animal in the woods if that person notifies a game warden within 18 hours as to the location of that animal and the circumstances necessitating leaving that animal in the woods.

A person on a hunting trip in an unorganized township and staying at a temporary place of lodging may keep an unregistered harvested animal at the temporary place of lodging for no more than 7 days or until that person leaves the woods, whichever comes first.

A person may not possess a bear, deer, moose, or wild turkey that has not been legally registered except as otherwise provided in the statutes regarding animals causing damage or nuisance.

Bobcats taken by hunting must be tagged by a Department employee within 72 hours from the time they were taken.

I know other states do this, having hunted Maine for a few years I know that the registration is a joke, at least in northern Maine where we were. The joke among locals were that "they only registered the big ones."

The fact is that people would still use others tags and not register them just as they do now. The only thing it might help is the data but just as happens in Maine who would want to check in a spike horn? So the smaller bucks are the most likely to not be registered skewing the very statistics they're after.

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[gjs4]

The DEC does not give a rats ass about the age of your deer- only some hunters do..... and most hunters in NY are as good at aging as they are at scoring racks


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[dbHunterNY]

NY is too big of a state to have mandatory check stations. Not to mention who will pay to man them?

Who is willing to drive 20 or 30 miles one way to check in a deer? I know I'm not.


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Other states make you do it for the carcass tag. Others do it in different ways to make it work. I think the bigger issue is DEC blowing off the thought of low reporting rates as no big deal we can manage. That's BS and will never solve the problem. Warnings should be given out and similar to seat belt stuff DEC should be promoting that they'll start to Crack down on those who don't report. It's law and they've allowed the precedent for it to be broken.

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[Five Seasons]

I don't disagree that poaching and tag sharing or non-tagging takes place across the state. I do believe however that it's probably less common now than it was. Mostly I believe this due to generational shifts in thinking and how much more pressure social media and others drive how "uncool" it is. Where I feel that 20 years or so ago, many hunters still felt they could "do what they wanted" in the woods. I feel this is supported too by the increase in bowhunters which tend to be a hunter with a softer footprint. I believe there is more respect for deer now than ever before. Heck, some of us spend hundreds of dollars to feed the things

I want to be clear that I'm not dismissing it. I believe there's some real bad apples sprinkled throughout the state and those real bad poachers probably have a dramatic local impact. But far and wide a few shared tags or untagged deer isn't making a substantial impact to harvest numbers. And any one small group of poachers wouldn't affect an entire WMU.

just my .02.

[Buckmaster7600]

I don't disagree that poaching and tag sharing or non-tagging takes place across the state. I do believe however that it's probably less common now than it was. Mostly I believe this due to generational shifts in thinking and how much more pressure social media and others drive how "uncool" it is. Where I feel that 20 years or so ago, many hunters still felt they could "do what they wanted" in the woods. I feel this is supported too by the increase in bowhunters which tend to be a hunter with a softer footprint. I believe there is more respect for deer now than ever before. Heck, some of us spend hundreds of dollars to feed the things
I want to be clear that I'm not dismissing it. I believe there's some real bad apples sprinkled throughout the state and those real bad poachers probably have a dramatic local impact. But far and wide a few shared tags or untagged deer isn't making a substantial impact to harvest numbers. And any one small group of poachers wouldn't affect an entire WMU.
just my .02.

I think it's a location thing. I work in a mill with a couple hundred guys with a lot of hunters and I would say that over half try to fill others tags or don't tag at all. I think most of his has to do with our area most own some land or have relatives that do. It's a lot easier for them to get away with it without having to haul the deer or bring them to a butcher. I have yet to talk to someone at work that reports their tags other than me.

Me personally I don't care about the tag issue there is still plenty of deer what bothers me is them not being reported. I would love to see NY figure out a way to crack down on it but I'm not sure how we could do it without a huge cost.


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[growalot]

You are right...here's something to think about,even though most country folk do their own butchering...unlike years gone by...you do not see hanging deer. I am the only one in this area to hang my deer in the open.this has nothing to do with anti' s....more than a few around here will take those untagged deer to other people's  barns,sheds,and garages to hang. Then tag the buck they want to brag about. .BTW..it does make a difference if buck tags are used by others..when one guy shoots 5 bucks on other people's tags. 

1. Can't brag, so any buck will do

2 . Who's to say  those 5 people would have ever had a chance at  a buck. We aren't talking using doe tags in high doe areas...many of these type won't bother with doe.

Edited March 3, 2017 by growalot