SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, chas0218 said:

Yes those 7, 8, or 9 points could be 1.5, 2.5, or 3.5 it isn't a perfect system but like you said there are exceptions, but yearling are also the button bucks and bucks with antlers less than 3" harvested with a DMP.

Yearlings are 1 1/2s come hunting season. Generally speaking, button bucks are not yearlings, they are still fawns.

[Rack Attack]

33 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Where did you get your information on the 85-95%? Or is it a guess from personal experience. If it is a made up number from personal experience how many different areas in the state have you hunted?

It's personal experience (I wouldn't call it pulling it out of my a$$...)  As far as areas, I own two camps in two different parts of the northern zone for which I hunt out of, I own a large tract of land in central NY that I hunt on, my father in law owns 80 acres in southern NY that I hunt on.  I don't have property or time to hunt western NY, but I would say I get a pretty good cross section of what is out there in NYS...

Edited April 4, 2017 by Rack Attack

[Buckmaster7600]

It's personal experience (I wouldn't call it pulling it out of my a$$...)  As far as areas, I own two camps in two different parts of the northern zone for which I hunt out of, I own a large tract of land in central NY that I hunt on, my father in law owns 80 acres in southern NY that I hunt on.  I don't have property or time to hunt western NY, but I would say I get a pretty good cross section of what is out there in NYS...

I own land in Saratoga, and Washington county, own a camp in Hamilton and am a member in a camp in schoharie county. From what I have seen in my 60 days a year in the woods hunting deer is much different than yours. I would say three out of four 5,6pts I have seen have been 2yrs old. I also hunt Pa and Ohio and their numbers closer to your numbers from what I have saw.


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[stoneam2006]

I hunt all over nys on private and public from alleghany state park thru the fingerlakes and into the adks yearly. The deer population does not need AR's it needs better management thru ought public and private lands.

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[wolc123]

I do not support a one buck rule and am on the fence on the AR's.  If they can be shown to improve hunter safety I am for them, if not, then against.   I don't not consider any hunting season a complete success unless I fill both buck tags.  Does are a nice bonus, if I need more meat.   I butcher most of my own, and bucks are easier to do with less fat to trim.  It is all about the meat for me.   The primary reason I prefer 2-1/2 year old bucks over 1-1/2's is because they have more meat on them.  

I have not killed many that were older than that but I do not remember much decrease in taste quality with older bucks.  A lot of that has to do with aging the meat at the right temperature, the food the buck has been eating, and how quickly it is killed.  The older the deer, the longer it should be aged.   2 weeks is at 30-40 degrees F is perfect for a 3-1/2 year old.   Button bucks are the only ones that are very tender if processed immediately without aging.  

Overall, as a meat hunter, I am very well pleased with the hunting we have here in NY and the job the DEC has done.  I personally had my best meat-producing season to date last year with a 2-1/2 & 1-1/2 yr buck and a  3-1/2 & 1-1/2 yr doe.   The tastiest tenderloins and liver came from the 1/2 year buck that a friend killed on one of my DMP's (he only wanted to keep one backstrap).  

The only little tweak to the rules that I would really like to see is full-inclusion of the x-bow.  I have the cash ready to fork over on a more powerful x-bow, the minute I here that passes.  If it don't, I will just stick with my $250 entry level model that has got the job done ok every time so far.   That is all the money I am willing to invest in a 2 week season.           

Edited April 4, 2017 by wolc123

[growalot]

I am curious as to what you c encoder central NY....

Consider to be

Edited April 4, 2017 by growalot

[dbHunterNY]

2 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

The solution to what though? Pushing your standards down everyones throats? Lets face it here, ARs or not, there are still plenty of deer to be hunted. You want a trophy rack? Buy land and manage it. Do your best to get your neighbors to do the same. If you arent willing to do that, then quit your griping.

Im pretty tired of every little thing in life being legislatively molded into someone else's idea of how things should be. I have my standards, I dont push them on anyone. My personal hunting wont be affected, but many other's will be. Enough already.

as much as it pains me to say it, any post i make on an antler restriction thread might as well say "Go Habs!".  In reality i haven't even really pitched this legislation and many of the posts.  i've just posted what i've thought to be educated info but it seems to be just guilty by association and therefore somehow invalid.

solution to what? anything anyone has a problem with.  everyone questions DEC data as it pertains to yearling buck harvest or heck just in general.  so what's everyone doing to fix that?

plenty of deer is a bit subjective especially coming from an area where you get 4 DMPs just for asking.  i don't intend on waiting years here to get just one.  yes i do want a trophy rack each season, same as probably everybody else hunting here.  i think it'd be nice.  i have other hunting priorities though that come long before that.  i haven't bought land.  it turns out the family owns some in which i do manage the best i can to the satisfaction of others.  i try to do my best with talking to the neighbors too.  problem is everybody talked, a lot, and now we abut other tracts of acreage like our group.  now we have over 20,000 acres of local hunters who are getting educated.  it so happens we have antler restrictions on that acreage, like some of your friends out your way have but on a lesser scale i'm sure.  now because of it everybody is asking me why DEC isn't using them.  then i explain conversations i've had, including many on here and with DEC.  then the next time i see them i get asked the same thing.  so yea i gripe. by far we out this way would love for DEC to quit screwing around and give antler restrictions a fair shot before any legislative action.  when i'm not at my day job that has nothing to do with deer, when preaching is done, and i finish cleaning 3 figures worth of jawbones i put together an excel spread sheet with harvest info to go with them.  for every deer taken, and i then offer it up to DEC only to get a "well we've got 30 for your WMU. we can age them for you though."  then i burn vacation days to talk to DEC and other biologists because well that's when they're at work to do so, instead of going on a nice out of state hunt or tending to my favorite deer spot.  here's a good one leaving at prime time during hunting season to help a stranger check-in a deer they got.  so sorry if I seem bothered when i hear DEC info sucks, what i'm saying isn't based on science, or "how do you know what's going on where you are?  maybe it's just on your property.  leave the neighbors alone and let them hunt."

[stoneam2006]

I don't have the money to mount a trophy yearly or want for a trophy every season anyway. Why would it I would take away from the few I do have. Kinda like everyone gets a trophy liberals are pushing...lol

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[Rack Attack]

4 hours ago, growalot said:

I am curious as to what you c encoder central NY....

Consider to be

I assume you are referring to my post.  Look up the geographic center of NYS and that will get close enough for this discussion.

[DirtTime]

15 hours ago, chas0218 said:

He simply said take guns out of the rut and shorten the season. So push off gun season for 1 more week then it will be towards the end of rut if it hasn't ended already. I love bow hunting and gun hunting. I bow hunt because I like the amount of skill, and how it challenges my ability to get close to deer.

Um, again seriously? So you want to shorten the gun season a week, and expand the bow season a week. To make sure gun hunters don't get a chance to hunt prime time. So, let me get this clear. This is what you are proposing, the bow season would be close to two months, and the gun season in the SZ ( because that's where most of the people hunt on this site ) would be limited to two weeks. You show me one solid reason why that's not elitist!

 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by ....rob

[Four Season Whitetail's]

26 minutes ago, ....rob said:

Um, again seriously? So you want to shorten the gun season a week, and expand the bow season a week. To make sure gun hunters don't get a chance to hunt prime time. So, let me get this clear. This is what you are proposing, the bow season would be close to two months, and the gun season in the SZ ( because that's where most of the people hunt on this site ) would be limited to two weeks. You show me one solid reason why that's not elitist!

 

 

You can add a week anywhere you like except the rut. If the goal is to keep bigger bucks around then Get guns out of the rut, I say shorten the season, 1 buck rule and no guns in rut, That would make for an awesome hunting state! 

[wooly]

30 minutes ago, ....rob said:

Um, again seriously? So you want to shorten the gun season a week, and expand the bow season a week. To make sure gun hunters don't get a chance to hunt prime time. So, let me get this clear. This is what you are proposing, the bow season would be close to two months, and the gun season in the SZ ( because that's where most of the people hunt on this site ) would be limited to two weeks. You show me one solid reason why that's not elitist!

 

 

Have you ever even killed a deer or two to know what size you prefer to kill?

If not, then I can understand how a guy who rarely kills anything would want to be able to kill everything.

[Larry]

I hate to brake this to some of you guys. But there is not a deer season in this state for us to hunt any kind of trophy deer. No madder where they place the dates or for how long anyone season is. There is a deer season for one reason only and that’s to make some attempt to control the deer population. That’s it period! You guy just don’t get it they’re not going to take days from one season and add them to another you have a better chance of getting more days. Then taking days away.

[Buckmaster7600]

Have you ever even killed a deer or two to know what size you prefer to kill?
If not, then I can understand how a guy who rarely kills anything would want to be able to kill everything.

Haha


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[stoneam2006]

You can add a week anywhere you like except the rut. If the goal is to keep bigger bucks around then Get guns out of the rut, I say shorten the season, 1 buck rule and no guns in rut, That would make for an awesome hunting state! 

who cares about keeping older deer? That means nothing. Older deer is just for bone on the wall a 1.5 will breed just as well as a 5 yr old makes no difference. We need better land management to help the population thrive and be healthy which in turn will help them grow better bone faster. Who cares about the bone it means nothing. Let's quit trying to legislate this state let's quit trying to make it a hubting destination for TV shows let's just make it a state where everyone can go out fill their freezers and have fun and if your lucky enough to put some bone on the wall it will mean more.


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[growalot]

Good luck with that in this day and age.

[grampy]

8 hours ago, wooly said:

Have you ever even killed a deer or two to know what size you prefer to kill?

If not, then I can understand how a guy who rarely kills anything would want to be able to kill everything.

Valid point.

[Death From Above]

8 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

You can add a week anywhere you like except the rut. If the goal is to keep bigger bucks around then Get guns out of the rut, I say shorten the season, 1 buck rule and no guns in rut, That would make for an awesome hunting state! 

That would make us like just about every other state.  Which I agree would be an improvement.  No where to go but up.

[growalot]

Wow.. really? When he  does show a kill, say a 6pt ..you can also come back with ..." ya imagine how nice he'd have been next year"...

[WNYBuckHunter]

13 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

as much as it pains me to say it, any post i make on an antler restriction thread might as well say "Go Habs!".  In reality i haven't even really pitched this legislation and many of the posts.  i've just posted what i've thought to be educated info but it seems to be just guilty by association and therefore somehow invalid.

solution to what? anything anyone has a problem with.  everyone questions DEC data as it pertains to yearling buck harvest or heck just in general.  so what's everyone doing to fix that?

plenty of deer is a bit subjective especially coming from an area where you get 4 DMPs just for asking.  i don't intend on waiting years here to get just one.  yes i do want a trophy rack each season, same as probably everybody else hunting here.  i think it'd be nice.  i have other hunting priorities though that come long before that.  i haven't bought land.  it turns out the family owns some in which i do manage the best i can to the satisfaction of others.  i try to do my best with talking to the neighbors too.  problem is everybody talked, a lot, and now we abut other tracts of acreage like our group.  now we have over 20,000 acres of local hunters who are getting educated.  it so happens we have antler restrictions on that acreage, like some of your friends out your way have but on a lesser scale i'm sure.  now because of it everybody is asking me why DEC isn't using them.  then i explain conversations i've had, including many on here and with DEC.  then the next time i see them i get asked the same thing.  so yea i gripe. by far we out this way would love for DEC to quit screwing around and give antler restrictions a fair shot before any legislative action.  when i'm not at my day job that has nothing to do with deer, when preaching is done, and i finish cleaning 3 figures worth of jawbones i put together an excel spread sheet with harvest info to go with them.  for every deer taken, and i then offer it up to DEC only to get a "well we've got 30 for your WMU. we can age them for you though."  then i burn vacation days to talk to DEC and other biologists because well that's when they're at work to do so, instead of going on a nice out of state hunt or tending to my favorite deer spot.  here's a good one leaving at prime time during hunting season to help a stranger check-in a deer they got.  so sorry if I seem bothered when i hear DEC info sucks, what i'm saying isn't based on science, or "how do you know what's going on where you are?  maybe it's just on your property.  leave the neighbors alone and let them hunt."

First off, DEC has no legit data on the ages of harvested bucks. When you report your deer, the ONLY question about the buck they ask is how many point it had. You know damn well that number of points has very little to do with a bucks age. The only time they ask a question during the reporting process that could come close to determining an age is when you report on a DMP and they ask if it was male or female, and even then, theres the possibility that it could be a buck that dropped its antlers early, but thats an exception, so I could believe their data on the percentage of button bucks killed. Sure, they go out to a few processors and look at some of the deer there, they might even check a tooth or two while they are there, but I will tell you, that out of all of the hunters I personally know, and I know alot of them, only two take their deer to a processor. To me, the fact that so many deer are processed by hunters, makes the DEC's efforts at checking some of the deer at some of the processors, pretty much menial. Until the DEC implements mandatory deer checks, where they can take a look at the majority of the bucks harvested, their numbers on how many yearlings are killed every year, mean nothing to me. If their numbers are bunk, then how can they push a regulation, such as AR, which is completely based upon them? It makes no logical sense.

I commend you for your efforts with your neighbors, etc, but you have to realize that the 20,000 acres you are talking about, is pretty small in comparison to the whole state, or even the areas that this proposal talks about. You cant base management techniques for areas of the state that are completely different than your area, on what works for you.

The farms I hunt are hunted pretty heavily, and by different groups of guys. Most of them go by no type of restriction, and plenty of them knock down anything with antlers that comes within range. Between those farms, and the neighboring farms, there are probably 2 bucks that surpass 140 taken every year. I wont even mention how many I personally lay eyes on each year, not to mention what I catch on cameras. None of us usually fill every tag we have, but all of our freezers are full at the end of the season, and there are plenty of deer left for years to come. All of this on basically unmanaged land that gets driven almost every weekend, with the rules of "if its brown, its down". Hell, if thats not good hunting in your book, then I dont know what to tell you. Maybe if people would stop comparing their little slice of hunting ground to what they see on the Sportsman Channel, then we would see far less of this type of proposal.

[dbHunterNY]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

First off, DEC has no legit data on the ages of harvested bucks. When you report your deer, the ONLY question about the buck they ask is how many point it had. You know damn well that number of points has very little to do with a bucks age. The only time they ask a question during the reporting process that could come close to determining an age is when you report on a DMP and they ask if it was male or female, and even then, theres the possibility that it could be a buck that dropped its antlers early, but thats an exception, so I could believe their data on the percentage of button bucks killed. Sure, they go out to a few processors and look at some of the deer there, they might even check a tooth or two while they are there, but I will tell you, that out of all of the hunters I personally know, and I know alot of them, only two take their deer to a processor. To me, the fact that so many deer are processed by hunters, makes the DEC's efforts at checking some of the deer at some of the processors, pretty much menial. Until the DEC implements mandatory deer checks, where they can take a look at the majority of the bucks harvested, their numbers on how many yearlings are killed every year, mean nothing to me. If their numbers are bunk, then how can they push a regulation, such as AR, which is completely based upon them? It makes no logical sense.

I commend you for your efforts with your neighbors, etc, but you have to realize that the 20,000 acres you are talking about, is pretty small in comparison to the whole state, or even the areas that this proposal talks about. You cant base management techniques for areas of the state that are completely different than your area, on what works for you.

The farms I hunt are hunted pretty heavily, and by different groups of guys. Most of them go by no type of restriction, and plenty of them knock down anything with antlers that comes within range. Between those farms, and the neighboring farms, there are probably 2 bucks that surpass 140 taken every year. I wont even mention how many I personally lay eyes on each year, not to mention what I catch on cameras. None of us usually fill every tag we have, but all of our freezers are full at the end of the season, and there are plenty of deer left for years to come. All of this on basically unmanaged land that gets driven almost every weekend, with the rules of "if its brown, its down". Hell, if thats not good hunting in your book, then I dont know what to tell you. Maybe if people would stop comparing their little slice of hunting ground to what they see on the Sportsman Channel, then we would see far less of this type of proposal.

first paragraph is beating a dead horse.  i think a majority of us posting here have reached a concensus that DEC data for ages needs improvement.  the info is there though and sometimes on a silver platter, DEC just has to be proactive and simply take some of it.  they can regulate because year to year they have the means to change those regulations.  you know deer management isn't a 'set it and forget it' kind of thing.  it should can evolve.  they don't need a majority just probably more than they get.

i don't agree maybe due to semantics, but management techniques can be applied throughout the state and even throughout the country.  the devil is in their implementation and where it leads.  so i will agree with you in a sense that the decisions and what you get from them will be different. no where did i ever say this is my management plan and this will work everywhere else.  it's always been we use this and it'll work if you tailor it to your area.  if you don't agree i'd be lost for words.

140" buck isn't relevant.  many deer out this way wouldn't see that score even if they lived a full life.  i get the point though it's big by most anyone's standards including for where you are.  where you are you've got bucks per square mile and better conditions to grow them bigger sooner.  i'm not in disagreement with you it's a nice situation to have.  not sure where you were going with the humble brag.  this area like any other area can produce nice bucks, but i'm not even going to entertain the idea that it can be compared to other places that might show up on the Sportman's Channel.  I mean God bless the Florida Keys trophy buck manager trying to grow a booner, but i'm just not that ignorant and ambitious.  i'm just saying out this way is different and a little change and go a long way to help.  i don't intend one imposing my will throughout the state.  some of you have faught against some decisions regardless of where it is or if it effects you.  DEC now thinks it's something not to be associated with to save face.  so here we are with legislation, despite i'd rather have regulation, that will give this area 3 points to a side.  i wish their were other provisions in the legislation for new hunters and not just youth.  this point i'm left with the mindset of i'll simply take what i can get despite i know it's not perfect.  i also i know nothing in life is.

[dbHunterNY]

4 hours ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

 

 

who cares about keeping older deer? That means nothing. Older deer is just for bone on the wall a 1.5 will breed just as well as a 5 yr old makes no difference. We need better land management to help the population thrive and be healthy which in turn will help them grow better bone faster. Who cares about the bone it means nothing. Let's quit trying to legislate this state let's quit trying to make it a hubting destination for TV shows let's just make it a state where everyone can go out fill their freezers and have fun and if your lucky enough to put some bone on the wall it will mean more.


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he's not talking legislation.... what he's proposing would fall under the regulatory control of DEC.  they set the season durations, dates, and what legal hunting implement can be used in each of them.  right now crossbow just doesn't fall under a legal hunting implement so DEC can't regulate it.

[Doewhacker]

dbHunterNY

If you are part of a 20,000 acre area that takes part in AR's already why would the state need to step in and make it a law?

If it is working how about showing your co-op data proving how AR's improve the health and age structure that is touted. Also provide a hunter satisfaction survey of the co-op members showing how blissfully happy they are.

Lead by example, show us all the benefits and results.

One more general question to all, if 70+% support AR's, why aren't they taking part now and not killing younger bucks. If they did then the over all 1.5 take should only be 30%.

[chas0218]

12 hours ago, ....rob said:

Um, again seriously? So you want to shorten the gun season a week, and expand the bow season a week. To make sure gun hunters don't get a chance to hunt prime time. So, let me get this clear. This is what you are proposing, the bow season would be close to two months, and the gun season in the SZ ( because that's where most of the people hunt on this site ) would be limited to two weeks. You show me one solid reason why that's not elitist!

 

 

No that is what he said. Personally I would like to see AR in the designated areas for 5 years, if it doesn't work pull it and replace with 1 buck rule for 5 years. If that doesn't work try both if that doesn't work then NY is screwed just shoot everything and don't worry about deer hunting anymore.

[chas0218]

14 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

dbHunterNY

If you are part of a 20,000 acre area that takes part in AR's already why would the state need to step in and make it a law?

If it is working how about showing your co-op data proving how AR's improve the health and age structure that is touted. Also provide a hunter satisfaction survey of the co-op members showing how blissfully happy they are.

Lead by example, show us all the benefits and results.

One more general question to all, if 70+% support AR's, why aren't they taking part now and not killing younger bucks. If they did then the over all 1.5 take should only be 30%.

He is saying that he hunts where AR is already in place in NY. If you go to the DEC website they have data and information showing what you want to know.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/93857.html

Edited April 5, 2017 by chas0218