200 Pound Draw Limit

[G-Man]

2 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

the restriction is that it has to be a at least a certain width. it can be wider.  shorter axle to axle would be less power stroke.  so with that in mind the at least 17" width restriction doesn't make sense.  I think they were concerned with poaching? idk but in that case a poacher is better served with a 22LR rifle and subsonic ammo. still doesn't make sense.  I agree with your thoughts on weight limitations. that said 200lb eliminates a lot of nice recurve crossbows that would still be equivalent to your faster compounds out.

I didn't make law.. it was push and pull by lobbiests.(nyb) and crossbow coalition  Dec made suggestions but lawmakers did it.. personally I'd rather have a true game department make the regs to manage game.  But that will not happen with put an amendment.. that would.solve all the debate on crossbow, rifles ,season lengths extending seasons ,distance from buildings, weapons allowed ( I'm hoping for spear someday) and Robertson Pittman fund would go solely for game management instead of cleaning up industrial sites, dredging rivers and changing boilers in NYC because its good for wildlife excuse to funnel monies that way...

[dbHunterNY]

12 hours ago, Hock3y24 said:

yeah its bs, there only like one excaliber crossbow that has a 200 lb dw or less and i want one of those. 

I want a Raven that has too small of an axle to axle.

[dbHunterNY]

11 minutes ago, G-Man said:

I didn't make law.. it was push and pull by lobbiests.(nyb) and crossbow coalition  Dec made suggestions but lawmakers did it.. personally I'd rather have a true game department make the regs to manage game.  But that will not happen with put an amendment.. that would.solve all the debate on crossbow, rifles ,season lengths extending seasons ,distance from buildings, weapons allowed ( I'm hoping for spear someday) and Robertson Pittman fund would go solely for game management instead of cleaning up industrial sites, dredging rivers and changing boilers in NYC because its good for wildlife excuse to funnel monies that way...

not meant to jump all over ya.  we're on the entirely the same page with your response.  I was just trying to make the point and can't see that 17+" width requirement ever had anything to do with capping the performance of a crossbow in any way, let alone to make it equivalent to a compound.  that's all. carry on.

[LIAF]

Lets face it the 200lb max limit was put in by uniformed people (lawmakers). To them there is no difference between a compound xbow or a recurve. One point is clear it was put in to restrict speeds. They figured max speed around 400 fps so you had to limit them to less than 200lbs. A compound xbow with that limit will shoot 400fps or even faster. A recurve crossbow with a weight limit of 200lbs will only go about 330 ish. I own 2 ten year old Excalibur crossbows a 175lb that shoots around 300 fps and a 200lb one that shoots about 330. I know the newer ones have a decrease in limb width hence a shorter power stroke so they need a higher draw weight than the older ones to obtain equivalent FPS. With every one having a speed mentality than they want draw weights that are  around 250 and higher for speeds above 350fps. I can put 100 arrows thru my 175 before my back gets tired but after about 30 arrows with the 200lb my back is sore .i have shot the newer xcals  and a 250 is a bitch to shoot(done after 10 arrows).  As far as the limb length minimum it was probably put in because they figured people would use them for poaching and the smaller it is the easier it is to stick out of a truck window than the easier to poach a deer.

[G-Man]

Oh the lawmakers were informed ..by lobbiests that didn't want them so a compromise was made.. but expecting change quickly or soon is a fairytail.. full inclusion will.come 1st and that is prolly 2 or 3 years away..

[Doc]

5 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

No, this is what you get when a small group of elitists like NYB are allowed to influence the legislators that push through laws that deal with things that they have no knowledge about. If NY hunting laws were passed purely by a real wildlife management agency or committee, I doubt we would see as much stupid, arbitrary nonsense go through.

Things change and evolve over time, if you cant or wont adapt, you get left behind. Its always been that way and it will always be that way.

Oh here we go with the name calling already (actually again). You people sure have gotten a lot of mileage out of the "elitism" label. The fact is that you give the NYB a lot more credit than they deserve as far as their influence with legislators. They have been rendered all but dead and totally ineffective, which I guess was really the prime object of the crossbow lobby.....destroy the archery lobby and all they have done to establish the season, to make it easier to elbow your way in.

And of course you are completely correct about change and evolution. That is a fact of life that I have been noting for several years now. The crossbow crowd only looks as far as the end of their noses and think that the invasion of bow season will stop with crossbows. That's pretty much what bowhunters thought when the compound entered the scene. How silly it was for bowhunters to believe that they could have a season devoted to the art of using the bow. And I can guarantee that the same mentality that brought crossbows into bow season will not stop there. And there will come a time when the NYS crossbow organization will be labeled just as unfairly as so-called elitists when the next wave of invaders decide that they want to hijack the early season. I think it will be funny to see the shoe on the other foot as you are forced to struggle to preserve the season that you all have shoehorned yourselves into. The same arguments and tactics will apply and work as the change and evolution that you value so much continues. Oh, you too will try to put your own road-blocks up. And it will be just ineffective as the NYB struggle was.

[Rack Attack]

Oh give me a break, just about every other state allows crossbows in archery many with full inclusion.  None of those states have issues with "trying to bring the next thing" into bow season!  It's a GD stick and string whether its a long bow, recurve, compound, or crossbow, no one is bringing guns into early season.

You know, I have watched my father enjoy archery season more in the last two years with a crossbow than I can remember in a long time and he has archery hunted since the 70's.  Many of the people looking down on crossbows are the same ones preaching about "I can shoot whatever I want, it's my tag" which is fine, but now you're trying to use the same tactics you are against with crossbows by limiting or eliminating them from being use.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Rack Attack

[Five Seasons]

5 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

Oh give me a break, just about every other state allows crossbows in archery many with full inclusion.  None of those states have issues with "trying to bring the next thing" into bow season!  It's a GD stick and string whether its a long bow, recurve, compound, or crossbow, no one is bringing guns into early season.

and many of these other states have a gun season 2 or less weeks long. 

[Doc]

3 hours ago, G-Man said:

I didn't make law.. it was push and pull by lobbiests.(nyb) and crossbow coalition  Dec made suggestions but lawmakers did it.. personally I'd rather have a true game department make the regs to manage game.  But that will not happen with put an amendment.. that would.solve all the debate on crossbow, rifles ,season lengths extending seasons ,distance from buildings, weapons allowed ( I'm hoping for spear someday) and Robertson Pittman fund would go solely for game management instead of cleaning up industrial sites, dredging rivers and changing boilers in NYC because its good for wildlife excuse to funnel monies that way...

I will tell you right now that if the decisions were up to the DEC, we would be sharing the bow season with muzzleloaders. They were pushing an early muzzleloading season a decade ago until the bowhunters shouted them down. And even very recently they were threatening a few WMUs with an inclusion of muzzleloaders during bow season to meet their doe harvesting quotas. So their philosophies of weapons have already been made public. It has always been very clear that the DEC has had the mindset that they prefer as lethal a weapon as they can get away with dictating. Would they go beyond muzzleloader inclusion? ..... Very likely they would if the decision were 100% in their shop. I know that would be perfectly acceptable to a lot of people.....Ha-ha-ha.

Oh did I mention that we already have in-lines co-existing with bow seasons already.....ha-ha

Edited January 4, 2018 by Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

23 minutes ago, Doc said:

Oh here we go with the name calling already (actually again). You people sure have gotten a lot of mileage out of the "elitism" label. The fact is that you give the NYB a lot more credit than they deserve as far as their influence with legislators. They have been rendered all but dead and totally ineffective, which I guess was really the prime object of the crossbow lobby.....destroy the archery lobby and all they have done to establish the season, to make it easier to elbow your way in.

And of course you are completely correct about change and evolution. That is a fact of life that I have been noting for several years now. The crossbow crowd only looks as far as the end of their noses and think that the invasion of bow season will stop with crossbows. That's pretty much what bowhunters thought when the compound entered the scene. How silly it was for bowhunters to believe that they could have a season devoted to the art of using the bow. And I can guarantee that the same mentality that brought crossbows into bow season will not stop there. And there will come a time when the NYS crossbow organization will be labeled just as unfairly as so-called elitists when the next wave of invaders decide that they want to hijack the early season. I think it will be funny to see the shoe on the other foot as you are forced to struggle to preserve the season that you all have shoehorned yourselves into. The same arguments and tactics will apply and work as the change and evolution that you value so much continues. Oh, you too will try to put your own road-blocks up. And it will be just ineffective as the NYB struggle was.

Its not name calling, its a fact. NYB feels that their way of archery hunting, and their views of what should be considered archery equipment are the end all be all, facts and reality be damned. Thats the definition of an elitist.

The fact remains that the NYB was the group that influenced the legislators to put the current crossbow regulations and season in place. In their brilliance, they caused a large problem, because now crossbow hunters dont even have to take the archery course! How freaking ridiculous is that? They are killing deer, with archery equipment, without the proper education (shot angles, equipment considerations, blood tracking, effective range, etc) that they give you in the bowhunters class.

Im not going to enter into the discussion of what is archery equipment and what isnt with you again. Im also not going to argue about your theory of adding guns to the "early season". Its not "early season", its Archery (or Bow) season, and the vast majority of hunters and hunting groups want it to stay that way.

[WNYBuckHunter]

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

I will tell you right now that if the decisions were up to the DEC, we would be sharing the bow season with muzzleloaders. They were pushing an early muzzleloading season a decade ago until the bowhunters shouted them down. And even very recently they were threatening a few WMUs with an inclusion of muzzleloaders during bow season to meet their doe harvesting quotas. So their philosophies of weapons have already been made public. It has always been very clear that the DEC has had the mindset that they prefer as lethal a weapon as they can get away with dictating. Would they go beyond muzzleloader inclusion? ..... Very likely they would if the decision were 100% in their shop. I know that would be perfectly acceptable to a lot of people.....Ha-ha-ha.

150% pure speculation Doc.

[Doc]

You don't even realize that there are firearms in bow season already do you?

Edited January 4, 2018 by Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sure there are, theres youth season and small game. What does that have to do with anything? Dont sit there and act like we havent had this same basic discussion at least once a year for the past 5 or 6 years lol

[Doc]

So there is more than mere speculation. And by the way don't be conveniently forgetting the muzzleloaders, which are basically single shot rifles. And apparently your short memory has already forgotten the recent threat of the DEC to help a bunch of bowhunters in specific WMUs with muzzleloader inclusion to control doe populations.

150% pure speculation? ..... I think not.

[WNYBuckHunter]

10 minutes ago, Doc said:

So there is more than mere speculation. And by the way don't be conveniently forgetting the muzzleloaders, which are basically single shot rifles. And apparently your short memory has already forgotten the recent threat of the DEC to help a bunch of bowhunters in specific WMUs with muzzleloader inclusion to control doe populations.

150% pure speculation? ..... I think not.

There arent muzzleloaders in bow season now, Im not sure what you are talking about.

Equating a 3 day youth season or talk of a possible limited early muzzleloader season (possibly not even during bow season, only in specific WMUs, and run year to year depending on harvest goals) to saying that the DEC wants to put guns into bow season in the future is speculation on your part.

[G-Man]

Doc. Under the current Dec you are correct..they are tasked with controlling numbers .. Under a game commission I believe you would be wrong. Polical appointment would be gone.. it would be in charge of all.game.amd game.lands.. logging ,habitat management, game management and reintroduction, studies would all be autonomous from politics .. true game management would be possible .. primitive seasons and split or extended seasons could be put in place with no opposition.. requirements to use weapons could be unified such as bow course for crossbow instead of having to use a loophole to make them legal... politics is the problem

[Culvercreek hunt club]

44 minutes ago, Belo said:

and many of these other states have a gun season 2 or less weeks long. 

long gun season and long bow season and still can't get the herd numbers down in many areas of the state. Let's face it. The majority of bowhunters take the season to kill the more pattern able bucks at that time of year. doe permits are an afterthought if done at all. I will give Doc kudos on this point, If situations arise where the reduction  and take goals continue to be unmet there may very well be a next step. First and foremost we are management tools. I know guys that are squawking like crazy against crossbows and  these same guys haven't shot does in years. Two of them don't even keep the buck meat they shoot. These are all in the high population area I live in. 

[G-Man]

46 minutes ago, Doc said:

I will tell you right now that if the decisions were up to the DEC, we would be sharing the bow season with muzzleloaders. They were pushing an early muzzleloading season a decade ago until the bowhunters shouted them down. And even very recently they were threatening a few WMUs with an inclusion of muzzleloaders during bow season to meet their doe harvesting quotas. So their philosophies of weapons have already been made public. It has always been very clear that the DEC has had the mindset that they prefer as lethal a weapon as they can get away with dictating. Would they go beyond muzzleloader inclusion? ..... Very likely they would if the decision were 100% in their shop. I know that would be perfectly acceptable to a lot of people.....Ha-ha-ha.

Oh did I mention that we already have in-lines co-existing with bow seasons already.....ha-ha

I d issagree with muzzleloader they would.of made crossbow legal all bow.. they looked at muzzleloader  after that proposal failed.. face it bow success is low but more than triples if you can increase hunter numbers in that season using crossbow.. that is the goal reduce numbers in those areas..obviously bow hunters won't do it so introduce numbers that will.. bow hunters can avoid this by killing doe onndoe tags early..take 3 or 4 deer by bow..they give us a long season..

[wolc123]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

I d issagree with muzzleloader they would.of made crossbow legal all bow.. they looked at muzzleloader  after that proposal failed.. face it bow success is low but more than triples if you can increase hunter numbers in that season using crossbow.. that is the goal reduce numbers in those areas..obviously bow hunters won't do it so introduce numbers that will.. bow hunters can avoid this by killing doe onndoe tags early..take 3 or 4 deer by bow..they give us a long season..

To reduce the deer population, in the WMU's where the DEC has struggled, the best solution would be full-inclusion of the crossbow.  I live and hunt in one of these zones (9F).   I have watched the same thing happen every year.   After a week or two of bow season, the wise old does realize what is going on, and go mostly nocturnal.   A vertical bow is not very effective on them, because those deer are seldom alone, and it is very difficult to fool multiple sets of eye's while making the draw.   I am certain that I could fill s few DMP tags each year, if I could get out there starting October 1 with my crossbow.   Most folks know that old does are tougher to harvest than old bucks, and putting ML's in early would backfire and make them go nocturnal even faster.  It takes a week or two for the human scent to switch them, while those loud bangs would do it in one morning.   

That said though, I am ok with the way things are now, but only because I have access to a great spot in the Northern zone, where the crossbow opens mid-October for 3 days, followed by a week of ML, prior to gun season.   I am also very thankful that the crossbow gets peak-rut time in the Southern zone.  Keeping all those surplus does around makes that even better.   

[genesee_mohican]

3 hours ago, G-Man said:

I d issagree with muzzleloader they would.of made crossbow legal all bow.. they looked at muzzleloader  after that proposal failed.. face it bow success is low but more than triples if you can increase hunter numbers in that season using crossbow.. that is the goal reduce numbers in those areas..obviously bow hunters won't do it so introduce numbers that will.. bow hunters can avoid this by killing doe onndoe tags early..take 3 or 4 deer by bow..they give us a long season..

I'm not saying you are wrong on this but where does it show that the success rate triples during the two week crossbow season? Does the harvest rate increase by that much during the last two weeks?

The number of hunters out during the last two weeks of the season in my area keeps declining. I drive by state land every day during the season and the number of hunters out the last two weeks of bow keeps going down, just like the number of hunters out after opening day of gun.

[G-Man]

29 minutes ago, genesee_mohican said:

I'm not saying you are wrong on this but where does it show that the success rate triples during the two week crossbow season? Does the harvest rate increase by that much during the last two weeks?

The number of hunters out during the last two weeks of the season in my area keeps declining. I drive by state land every day during the season and the number of hunters out the last two weeks of bow keeps going down, just like the number of hunters out after opening day of gun.

,sorry i was referring to Ohio's reported numbers and how now their combined archery season takes more deer than their gun season.. bow season length full inclusion would yield similar results in ny will be interesting in seeing success rate numbers from N.Y. 

Edited January 5, 2018 by G-Man

[Hunter007]

36 minutes ago, G-Man said:

,sorry i was referring to Ohio's reported numbers and how now their combined archery season takes more deer than their gun season.. bow season length full inclusion would yield similar results in ny will be interesting in seeing success rate numbers from N.Y. 

It is legal to bait In Ohio ,new York it is  NOT .so here you probably not going to have same results . 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Storm914

[G-Man]

6 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

It is legal to bait In Ohio ,new York it is  NOT .so here you probably not going to have same results . 

Well the real problem is you have extrapolate numbers for N.Y. as x bow falls under muzzleloader permit so you do not.know how many crossbow hunters there actually are.. though new tags give crossbow as harvest weapon you cant get success  rate as numbers of licence bought is an unknown.. but it should show an increase in harvest numbers compared  to bow.. 

[Doc]

12 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

There arent muzzleloaders in bow season now, Im not sure what you are talking about.

Equating a 3 day youth season or talk of a possible limited early muzzleloader season (possibly not even during bow season, only in specific WMUs, and run year to year depending on harvest goals) to saying that the DEC wants to put guns into bow season in the future is speculation on your part.

Speaking of not knowing what you are talking about, refer to http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/28605.html#deer and learn the facts.

In the Northern Zone, there has always been a cohabitation of bow and muzzleloader during the last week of bow season. In the southern zone muzzleloaders and bows share a common season from December 11 to December 19. That is not speculation if you take the time to look before you speak.

So as it turns out, the DEC has no problem running the two seasons together, and we do have firearms and bows sharing the same seasons.

[nyantler]

On 1/3/2018 at 3:47 PM, Storm914 said:

Yea but why limb width limit ?that has nothing to do with power ,Crazy rule and if they want to limit something and make it fair . do it by speed of arrow not by draw weight  .

 

 

Because limb width, draw weight and arrow speed are all related.