For Or Against Full Inclusion

[G-Man]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

Quite a convincing set of arguments. The only question I have about all that is, "When are you going to start advocating that gun hunters not be excluded from the early season"? Expand the opportunities of choice to them too. Don't you see a bit of hypocrisy shouting and screaming about the selfish elitism of bowhunters while you all turn around and argue for the exclusion of gun hunters? Come-on.....You want to champion weapons choices? Don't all those same arguments apply when you willfully exclude guns from the early season? I think they do.

Doc , ok u keep putting gun in the season.. it is an archery season.  stick and string required season ..they are the same unless your using a traditional set up of a long bow or recurve. I can understand your stance if you were arguing for a tradition early season for that. As all compounds and  most crossbows are using technology far surpassing that. 

Yes weapons that have a sting as a propellant are all classified the same and choice of that weapon that uses a string in that season should all be the same. Unless you want a traditional archery season (wood limbs and string) do discriminate against any weapon in that range is childish. 

And yes the gun hunters petitioned for years to allow rifle in shotgun areas.. guess what you can choose any weapon that uses a powder propellant in gun season!!! (Shotgun,rifle,pistol,muzzleloader)!!! It's your choice!!! Same as it should be for all archery equipment in archery season!! See the similarity?? 

[Hunter007]

11 minutes ago, G-Man said:

So you can't get enjoyment out of being close using your recurve or long bow unless you have it in a special season?  Why would you feel bad using it at all they give you the choice. 

Just admit your upset someone who may use a weapon with perhaps a further range may shoot "your " deer.. they have separate record books for just this reason. And separate requirements as well. 

Simple scout more put in more effort so when Oct 1 comes you are in position to kill the animal you want. Using your choice of weapon!! 

Do you know   how shifty you sound .

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Storm914

[Culvercreek hunt club]

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

Quite a convincing set of arguments. The only question I have about all that is, "When are you going to start advocating that gun hunters not be excluded from the early season"? Expand the opportunities of choice to them too. Don't you see a bit of hypocrisy shouting and screaming about the selfish elitism of bowhunters while you all turn around and argue for the exclusion of gun hunters? Come-on.....You want to champion weapons choices? Don't all those same arguments apply when you willfully exclude guns from the early season? I think they do.

I don't see it as hypocritical. Archery implements in archery season and firearms in firearms season. At this point with modern inlines and optics I don't see much of a difference in those muzzleloaders and modern firearms. I bought my inline ML becasue is was honestly more accurate at greater distance than my shotgun and I hunt in some shotgun only areas for about half my firearms season. So I carry that when in shotgun only areas but it is a far cry from a primitive muzzleloader.  I'd like to pick up a flintlock when I get a chance. Probably be my next purchase.  I think it would be neat to use. 

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, G-Man said:

Doc , ok u keep putting gun in the season.. it is an archery season.  stick and string required season ..they are the same unless your using a traditional set up of a long bow or recurve. I can understand your stance if you were arguing for a tradition early season for that. As all compounds and  most crossbows are using technology far surpassing that. 

Yes weapons that have a sting as a propellant are all classified the same and choice of that weapon that uses a string in that season should all be the same. Unless you want a traditional archery season (wood limbs and string) do discriminate against any weapon in that range is childish. 

And yes the gun hunters petitioned for years to allow rifle in shotgun areas.. guess what you can choose any weapon that uses a powder propellant in gun season!!! (Shotgun,rifle,pistol,muzzleloader)!!! It's your choice!!! Same as it should be for all archery equipment in archery season!! See the similarity?? 

I am simply testing some of these arguments for consistency.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

12 minutes ago, G-Man said:

And yes the gun hunters petitioned for years to allow rifle in shotgun areas.. guess what you can choose any weapon that uses a powder propellant in gun season!!! (Shotgun,rifle,pistol,muzzleloader)!!! It's your choice!!! Same as it should be for all archery equipment in archery season!! See the similarity?? 

Great point.  Doc was one of the ones doing cartwheels becasue his area when rifle and he didn't need to get beat up shootign a 12 gauge anymore. 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I don't see it as hypocritical. Archery implements in archery season and firearms in firearms season. At this point with modern inlines and optics I don't see much of a difference in those muzzleloaders and modern firearms. I bought my inline ML becasue is was honestly more accurate at greater distance than my shotgun and I hunt in some shotgun only areas for about half my firearms season. So I carry that when in shotgun only areas but it is a far cry from a primitive muzzleloader.  I'd like to pick up a flintlock when I get a chance. Probably be my next purchase.  I think it would be neat to use. 

The whole post that I was responding to was talking about providing choice of weapons even to the point of using spears and atlatls and such. Now you are breaking down the season into distinctions and qualifications and more rules for definitions for exclusion and limiting choices just like the bowhunters tried to do. They tried to say what bow season was intended for with their version of what constituted a bow season, and that was declared selfish and elitist and exclusionary. And now just as I predicted, the crossbow advocates are hanging on to their season-grab and turning on anyone else that tries to enter. I am simply looking for consistency and not simply changing the rules only to support your own viewpoint and wishes.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

The whole post that I was responding to was talking about providing choice of weapons even to the point of using spears and atlatls and such. Now you are breaking down the season into distinctions and qualifications and more rules for definitions for exclusion and limiting choices just like the bowhunters tried to do. They tried to say what bow season was intended for with their version of what constituted a bow season, and that was declared selfish and elitist and exclusionary. And now just as I predicted, the crossbow advocates are hanging on to their season-grab and turning on anyone else that tries to enter. I am simply looking for consistency and not simply changing the rules only to support your own viewpoint and wishes.

I would use whatever weapon they deemed legal. currently there are two general seasons in NY. Archery and firearms.  No?  Sure seems it to me. however they dice it up I'll participate and  enjoy it. I refuse to let how someone else decides to enjoy or participate in the seasons determine my involvement or the pleasure I get from hunting. My reference to the other weapons was simple. if legal I would try them. why not?  If they made the whole deer season only primitive, I would hunt it, if they made it all compound, I would hunt it. if they made it all firearms, I would hunt it. My enjoyment is not defined by the implement I hold in my hands. Life's to short. 

[Doc]

One thing that no one is looking at is the fact that no matter how you try to set the rules......You have to understand that you do not set the rules. You all seem to be content declaring what should or should not be allowed in the seasons as if you really had the power to decree such things. You have to look farther down the road and even take a few looks back at history. Understand that it is all about precedents. Understand that the introduction of compounds was the precedent for crossbows. Nobody knew that at the time, but as soon as the bows allowed in bow season started to add pulleys and cables and eccentrics and cams, the stage was set for the next step. Now we have set up the next stage for season intrusion. We have crossbows. And you people think it will stop there because you have all independently declared a new line in the sand and your own little definitions that talk about meaningless things like "stick & string" and bent limbs and other arbitrary definitions that none of you really have any power to decree.

The old-timers of early archery had some inkling of this creeping change when they were against allowing the compound. And yes even I argued against the old-timers because I didn't understand the principles of precedents and creeping technology. But I understand it now. They tried to decree some basic rules and definitions and found out that their "opinions" and arbitrary, bogus, definitions meant nothing. Bow season will change as long as the majority of hunters want that season. What it will change to is as open as all the technological possibilities. And if gun hunters want that chosen season, there will come a time when they will simply take it. Some of that has happened already. They will use the same arguments of choice, elitism, selfishness and all the other slams and slurs that crossbow advocates used on bowhunters to shoehorn their way into bow season. I can't stop it any more than archers of the future will be able to stop it. But I do refuse to help it all along.

[Doc]

30 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

currently there are two general seasons in NY. Archery and firearms.  No? 

No. There is no "archery only" season where guns are not being used. When they wanted a fall turkey season, they jumped in with the bow hunters. When they wanted a youth firearms season, it got shoved into bow season. We share pieces of the bow season with small game hunters, and some chunks of muzzleloader hunters.  Also there is no pure gun season either. They share that season with bowhunters and now crossbow hunters. So no, there are no pieces of the hunting year that are dedicated to archery and then others that are dedicated to guns. We already have mixed seasons. That precedent is established.

I know what you were getting at about the two attempted distinctions but that is the misconception that most people have, and I just wanted to clarify that the distinctions only apply until someone wants to change them. There are plenty of examples. There were some WMUs recently that were threatened with muzzleloader incursion if the bowhunters didn't control the deer population. It was simple....The DEC just made a decree.

Regarding legal seasons and weapons, it would be wise to bear in mind that technology isn't done messing with us. There are things coming at us that we can't even imagine yet. Also we as archers have to remember that guns are legal hunting implements and slipping them into any part of the hunting year is as simple as conjuring up a case for necessity brought about by any interested party and a DEC declaration.

So when we get all complacent and confident that we are setting the limits, definitions, and lines in the sand, we have to understand that it is all temporary, and that at anytime we can find ourselves in the same boat that NYB found themselves in when someone else decided that they wanted a piece of the bow season. And likely we will have just as little luck as they did regardless of how convinced we are that there are absolutes that agree with our preconceived opinions and lines in the sand. All that crap means nothing when someone is determined to move in and take over. Someone else may have their own little brain-fart about how they need more options and choices, and it may not necessarily be a happy event.

[BigVal]

What a waste of time reading the last couple pages, crazy lol. 

[Hunter007]

If some one can only hunt 1 day a week in archery season and he can pick between bow and crossbow .

What do you think most are going to use. ?

Its, the same reason recurve went out of favor to compound bows. 

For me and most all bow hunters that is what is going to happen ,  I will be using my crossbow instead of the other 2 if it is in all of archery.  Either most or all of the time .

Not going to change anything only make me kill more deer maybe .  That is why 

I like the idea of separate season just so I have a reason to keep on using my bow. 

But it is not necessary .

Or the end of the world to me .I like to hunt and have better odds to get something over all, and I don't hunt in a target rich environment  Where I'm going to see a ton of deer like some guys do .

If your lucky enough to have the time and land that offers that many opportunities more power to you .

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Storm914

[Four Season Whitetail's]

33 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

If some one can only hunt 1 day a week in archery season and he can pick between bow and crossbow .

What do you think most are going to use. ?

Its, the same reason recurve went out of favor to compound bows. 

For me and most all bow hunters that is what is going to happen ,  I will be using my crossbow instead of the other 2 if it is in all of archery.  Either most or all of the time .

Not going to change anything only make me kill more deer maybe .  That is why 

I like the idea of separate season just so I have a reason to keep on using my bow. 

But it is not necessary .

Or the end of the world to me .I like to hunt and have better odds to get something over all, and I don't hunt in a target rich environment  Where I'm going to see a ton of deer like some guys do .

If your lucky enough to have the time and land that offers that many opportunities more power to you .

 

 

 

 

True...Same as many hunt with their bow until the 2 week crossbow is open, Most will tell you they now can use a better weapon with scopes and longer range kill weapon during the season suited best to kill a big buck.

Many a good buck has dropped because that hunter switched to a better weapon that gave them a better chance of a kill.  Not because of the love of the weapon but for the better chance to take a better deer during the best time of the season.

[Five Seasons]

19 hours ago, tughillmcd said:

One thing this poll has done is gained New York Crossbow Coalition a new member and his $100 donation! Thank you to Doc, Belo , stormy914, you were listed as who referred him to us!

You are doing for us what Obama did for gun sales!

nycrossbowcoalition.com/membership

so just like Obama though, you can't get shit done? 

[Jdubs]

1 hour ago, Storm914 said:

If some one can only hunt 1 day a week in archery season and he can pick between bow and crossbow .

What do you think most are going to use. ?

Its, the same reason recurve went out of favor to compound bows. 

For me and most all bow hunters that is what is going to happen ,  I will be using my crossbow instead of the other 2 if it is in all of archery.  Either most or all of the time .

Not going to change anything only make me kill more deer maybe .  That is why 

I like the idea of separate season just so I have a reason to keep on using my bow. 

But it is not necessary .

Or the end of the world to me .I like to hunt and have better odds to get something over all, and I don't hunt in a target rich environment  Where I'm going to see a ton of deer like some guys do .

If your lucky enough to have the time and land that offers that many opportunities more power to you .

 

Just curious, have you been missing kill opportunities while on stand with your bow?  If so, did you miss the shot, make a non-lethal hit or pass up a shot due to range concerns?

I'm with you on taking out the weapon that gives the best chance at a successful hunt.  For "me", that would be the xbow as I have zero skill set shooting a vertical bow of any kind.  Shoulder fired weapons with optics are a whole different story. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Jdubs

[Five Seasons]

17 hours ago, Just Lucky said:

Have you ever hunted with the croosbow? 

Was it easier, or you just assume?

i'm not going to entertain that. You know it's easier. I never said it was easy.

[tughillmcd]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

When they wanted a youth firearms season, it got shoved into bow season.

WRONG!!!
There was no Oct 1st archery opener when the Youth season was instituted. They  came in at the same time. 

[moog5050]

5 hours ago, moog5050 said:

Storm I have heard the question from many that are considering whether to try traditional: "but can you live with the fact that a big buck may be out of range with the trad bow and would have been in range with the compound?"  If the answer is, I would kick myself, then stick with the compound.  Greater challenge carries with it the likelihood of less success (but that is only if success is measured in inches).  As someone said, it is what it is.

 

[tughillmcd]

59 minutes ago, Belo said:

so just like Obama though, you can't get shit done? 

If you call gaining the first crossbow season that includes part of the archery season, all small game and has no sunset clause, NOTHING, Then you are correct!

[Hunter007]

8 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

 

Yep I do that even with the compound bow but the reality is I don't hunt a place with a ton of deer  .

I be just passing time with the range I can hit good at with a recurve I don't like taking bad shots 

[moog5050]

4 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

Yep I do that even with the compound bow but the reality is I don't hunt a place with a ton of deer  .

I be just passing time with the range I can hit good at with a recurve I don't like taking bad shots 

Or you could spend the time practicing with your recurve vs. posting on here.   That should extend your range to 40yds and beyond.   lol - just kidding.

[tughillmcd]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

... and that at anytime we can find ourselves in the same boat that NYB found themselves in when someone else decided that they wanted a piece of the bow season. 

Interesting. People have been asking for crossbow hunting in NY since it became legal to hunt with in Ohio over 40 years ago. NYB was established in 1991, which makes it around 27 years old. So the NYB boat didn't even exist until at least 10 years after the first crossbow hunters "wanted a piece of the bow season". 

Edited April 10, 2018 by tughillmcd

[Michael Squires]

To all archery hunters who hunt with a compound bow... how would you feel if they had a recurve bow season from October 1st through opening day of gun season but you could not go in the woods with your compound until November 1st? Remember that some of us old timers remember when there were no compound bows, we heard the same lame arguments back then about letting people hunt with compound bows. Some traditional archers complained that it was to easy with a compound, it wouldn’t be fair, it would wipe out the deer herd, ect,ect.  What I think it boils down to is that HUNTERS should stick together and welcome everyone to the sport we can get . We are a dying breed.

[bkln]

Who are you again?

[Buckmaster7600]

WRONG!!!
There was no Oct 1st archery opener when the Youth season was instituted. They  came in at the same time. 

WRONG!!!!

There was in Northern zone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Just Lucky]

1 hour ago, Belo said:

i'm not going to entertain that. You know it's easier. I never said it was easy.

So you haven't,  and you assume it's easier. I used a crossbow for the first time last year and for me it was not easier. 

It may become easier as seasons go but there are learning curves to the crossbow also.