What About a Limited Draw?

[pitweiler]

There have been a few discussions on here about QDMA, antler restrictions and the like. Seems each camp has their own valid points. I was listening to the Hunt Talk podcast today and they were talking about the limited draws in some areas out west and the impact it has had. Some areas saw an increase in better quality bucks, others stayed the same. What if NY tried that? Pick a few WMUs or counties where the general buck tag isn't valid and require people to enter into a limited lottery draw. Seems then everyone might be happy. The people who just want to have an opportunity can still do that with their general tag outside the draw areas and the people who want to chase "Mr. Big" can do that to. Think those areas would see an increase of mature deer if a draw was imposed and the number of tags was reduced?

[land 1]

i get what ur saying but what if ur the guy who owns land in that area and cant draw a tag for land he owns, i think the ones out west apply to public land

[Hock3y24]

no thanks

[pitweiler]

6 hours ago, land 1 said:

i get what ur saying but what if ur the guy who owns land in that area and cant draw a tag for land he owns, i think the ones out west apply to public land

Land owner exemptions could be written into the regulation. As it is, what if you’re the guy who owns land in a WMU where DMPs aren’t issued or are hard to get? Seems like the same concept. 

Putting a system like this in place could be limited to one or two WMUs in the northern zone and one or two in the southern zone. Doesn’t have to be a large scale operation. 

Another option would be to get rid of general buck tags and make buck tags just like DMPs, issued for each WMU. Perhaps people could then draw two tags, each for a different WMU or for the same if the draw numbers allow. Draw applications due by ~August 15, results come out ~September 15, left over tags go on sale ~Oct. 1. If you forget to apply you get what’s left over, just like a DMP. That tule of system could work. 

[Daveboone]

I always thought the easiest and best way to that end, was to make a one buck limit per hunter a year.

I know many hunters who (legally) take a buck with bow, muzzle loader then in regular season. I guess nothing wrong with what they are doing except being a bit of a game hog.  That could be two more successful buck hunters out there, / two bucks growing older. 

[pitweiler]

That’s not a bad idea. 

[wolc123]

I think those who purchase archery, regular, and ML tags should be allowed three bucks.

[johnplav]

3 hours ago, Daveboone said:

I always thought the easiest and best way to that end, was to make a one buck limit per hunter a year.

I know many hunters who (legally) take a buck with bow, muzzle loader then in regular season. I guess nothing wrong with what they are doing except being a bit of a game hog.  That could be two more successful buck hunters out there, / two bucks growing older. 

If they are shooting 3 bucks, they’re not doing it legally.  

[pitweiler]

2 hours ago, wolc123 said:

I think those who purchase archery, regular, and ML tags should be allowed three bucks.

What about getting rid of implement-specific tags and issuing one tag per hunter with a lottery for extra buck tags and DMPs? 

[Chef]

There have been a few discussions on here about QDMA, antler restrictions and the like. Seems each camp has their own valid points. I was listening to the Hunt Talk podcast today and they were talking about the limited draws in some areas out west and the impact it has had. Some areas saw an increase in better quality bucks, others stayed the same. What if NY tried that? Pick a few WMUs or counties where the general buck tag isn't valid and require people to enter into a limited lottery draw. Seems then everyone might be happy. The people who just want to have an opportunity can still do that with their general tag outside the draw areas and the people who want to chase "Mr. Big" can do that to. Think those areas would see an increase of mature deer if a draw was imposed and the number of tags was reduced?

I would never follow that law. I bought land and a camp in a area because I like it there. If they imposed that law in my area, I would flat out break it if I didn’t get drawn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pitweiler]

I think allowing land owner tags would be reasonable so that you don’t have to break the law. If you own land you should get a tag. 

[Nomad]

I’m not against change or looking at new ways ,however, I’d hate to be the guy who didn’t get a buck tag for his normal spot.

” No worries you can drive 50 miles to another zone and try to find a spot to hunt .”

 

[Daveboone]

10 hours ago, johnplav said:

If they are shooting 3 bucks, they’re not doing it legally.  

There are absolutely exceptions, just as plenty of the guys who shoot only one deer do not always take them legally. I admit I in the past had taken three legal bucks (regular, ml, archery, and lets not forget that for a few years deer management permits in certain areas were for either / or). I decided for myself, despite being able to purchase AND legally shoot three bucks, it was excessive. I have a number of acquantances and friends who are excellent skilled hunters who (unfortunately now in my eyes) can and do take three bucks, legally and ethically.  Myself, I look at the ML/ archery season as only a way of stretching the season, not making it more productive.

[wolc123]

8 hours ago, pitweiler said:

What about getting rid of implement-specific tags and issuing one tag per hunter with a lottery for extra buck tags and DMPs? 

That makes more sense.  The problem I have, in the DMU where our farm and my folks is located, is that local farmers hammer the antlerless deer prior to October 1.  That makes them few and far between by the time hunting season rolls around.   The vast majority of those deer are not tagged, but are left out in the fields to rot or for the coyotes and buzzards. I can get (4) DMP's here every year, but I can't kill what I do not see.  The last few years while hunting, I have seen around 3 antlered deer for every antlerless one.  In the last (5) crossbow seasons, I have had just one antlerless deer within range, but was able to fill my archery buck tags on (3) of those years.   This would be a good zone to hand out some extra buck tags, or better yet, to allow DMP tags to be used on bucks the way it used to be. 

 From what I have seen, antlered bucks cause most of the automobile accidents in this area.  I scraped a 3-pointer off the end of my driveway while the kids were out waiting for the bus in early October.  I imagine it did some serious damage to someone's car as it had multiple busted legs.  All I salvaged was the rack and the tail.  If they want to have some special "trophy" areas, where folks could take only one buck, that is fine with me.  In other areas, I think the DEC is squandering a good opportunity to have hunters help limit car-deer accidents by limiting buck harvest.   If and when one comes thru my front window it may be something to talk to a lawyer about.    

Edited November 22, 2018 by wolc123

[johnplav]

23 minutes ago, Daveboone said:

There are absolutely exceptions, just as plenty of the guys who shoot only one deer do not always take them legally. I admit I in the past had taken three legal bucks (regular, ml, archery, and lets not forget that for a few years deer management permits in certain areas were for either / or). I decided for myself, despite being able to purchase AND legally shoot three bucks, it was excessive. I have a number of acquantances and friends who are excellent skilled hunters who (unfortunately now in my eyes) can and do take three bucks, legally and ethically.  Myself, I look at the ML/ archery season as only a way of stretching the season, not making it more productive.

Under current regs... ML + Bow = 1 buck 

[Robhuntandfish]

Terrible idea IMHO.  Hope it never happens in my area. Have to draw for buck tag in area I lease to hunt that hands out doe tags for free cause they can't get rid of them all. ....Not interested. If you want a big buck hunt for it. But dont restrict others that are good with a smaller buck. Same for ARs 

Most us were pretty proud to be standing over a 4 point for our first buck hate to see a new hunter not be able to do the same and be hooked for life. Esp because a limited few of the license holders want to groom trophy's. 

Dont even see it ever happening and prob a moot argument as it took how many years just for a limited crossbow season.  

As I have said before ...I think I am the only guy that likes it just as it is.  We have it good.  2 buck tags, generally easy to get doe tags for many areas and a long season. 

I got a buck with the bow in one WMU and it would suxk if I was done for the season.  Esp when I mostly gun hunt in another WMU and am hunting a couple nice ones I have on cam. I just like to be able to hunt as much as possible.  

[NFA-ADK]

Bad idea.  Just because someone is able to get two deer does not mean other hunters will have better success if they only take one.  Stop trying to limit what others are allowed to hunt even if you are a trophy hunter.  You want to impose your will so getting a big deer is easier and more are around, this will not help!  Stopping another young hunter from getting his first deer is enough to stop dump regulations so you can see bigger deer.  

Some area can have all the regulations in the world even stop hunting all together, they simply do not have the good food value and genes to produce big deer.  Stop trying to regulate other hunters from hunting.  If we limited to one buck like some want my season would be over with one ADK buck when I have 2 more months to hunt deer on Long Island.  Stop blaming other successful hunters for your inability to see mature bucks!  There success is not causing your fails and stopping them will not help you out! 

Putting more regulations will not always make you see more deer or mature deer it usually just upsets other hunters who are happy with any buck, let them hunt!

[ATbuckhunter]

I think were already starting to do the best thing out there. We're passing younger deer hoping to get a bigger deer. Nothing is more effective than passing younger and smaller deer to let them grow older and bigger. 

[johnplav]

3 minutes ago, ATbuckhunter said:

I think were already starting to do the best thing out there. We're passing younger deer hoping to get a bigger deer. Nothing is more effective than passing younger and smaller deer to let them grow older and bigger. 

Correct.  And if a young hunter or someone with limited time/access chooses to legally take that young buck, we should all share in their happiness from a successful hunt. 

[pitweiler]

Ok, I thought about how to do something like a limited draw in NY and also keep the openess (so-to-speak) that NYS allows hunters (the freedom to take a buck tag anywhere in the state). Perhaps this could give people a chance to go after "Big Hank" and also be free to hunt and shoot what they want.

Move the archery opener up 5 days in each zone. The first five days of that season would be limited draw by WMU. DEC could release a specified amount of antlered deer tags per WMU for archery. The rest of the archery season would remain the same.

For regular season, take the first 5 days of each season and make it limited draw by WMU, the same as archery. Extend the back end of the season in the southern zone only by 3 days to compensate for the loss of the first 5 days of general tag use. The northern zone regular season is already pretty long so I don't think taking away 5 days of general would hurt anyone that badly.

Then, from January 13, 2019 to January 19, 2019 (Middle 7 days of January) I would add an either-sex season by WMU, where needed. Example: If WMU 8J doesn't reach the quota set by DEC during the previous seasons it will be open for hunting. If it did reach quota, it will be closed. Since this would be mop-up, issue these either-sex tags on a first-come-first-served basis. Give DEC from ~December 18 to December 31 to run the numbers and then issue the amount of tags per WMU. Tags go on sale Jan 1 and don't close until gone or the season closes, whichever comes first. This would be any legal implement.

I would also add a Public Land Stamp. If you want to hunt public land (during Deer/Bear Season only) you have to buy a $5 stamp. NY sells on average 750,000 hunting licenses a year. If legislation was written to require a $5 Public Land Access Stamp during Deer/Bear seasons that could raise approximately $3.7M for NYS to put back into the land. This legislation would have to be strictly written so that money didn't get hijacked for other pet projects that have nothing to do with hunting/conservation, but if written properly, it could really help improve some of the state land we have now and possibly allow the state to expand some of these areas through land purchases. 

Cost/Tag breakdown:

Hunting License- $22

Limited Archery- $10

Bowhunting Privilege- $15

Limited Firearms- $10

Regular Firearms- Included in License

DMP- $10

Late Either-Sex- $10

Public Land Access Stamp- $5

Total: $82 if you bought everything

 

If you didn't want limited draw access you don't have to take it. You're only losing 2 days of regular in the southern zone and 5 days of regular in the northern zone. I think the argument could be made that NYS doesn't need a limited archery season so that could be removed and save everyone $10.

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by pitweiler

[The_Real_TCIII]

Our hunting is just fine, not sure why everyone wants to mess with it. At least here in WNY. If you cant kill any deer here youre doing it wrong. If youre holding out for something and are patient you will get your opportunity, there are mature bucks all over the place just look at just about every members trail cam posts

[dbHunterNY]

On 11/22/2018 at 9:17 AM, Daveboone said:

There are absolutely exceptions, just as plenty of the guys who shoot only one deer do not always take them legally. I admit I in the past had taken three legal bucks (regular, ml, archery, and lets not forget that for a few years deer management permits in certain areas were for either / or). I decided for myself, despite being able to purchase AND legally shoot three bucks, it was excessive. I have a number of acquantances and friends who are excellent skilled hunters who (unfortunately now in my eyes) can and do take three bucks, legally and ethically.  Myself, I look at the ML/ archery season as only a way of stretching the season, not making it more productive.

don't take this personal but you hang out with a bunch of ignorant individuals or informed poachers.

[The_Real_TCIII]

8 minutes ago, pitweiler said:

Ok, I thought about how to do something like a limited draw in NY and also keep the openess (so-to-speak) that NYS allows hunters (the freedom to take a buck tag anywhere in the state). Perhaps this could give people a chance to go after "Big Hank" and also be free to hunt and shoot what they want.

Move the archery opener up 5 days in each zone. The first five days of that season would be limited draw by WMU. DEC could release a specified amount of antlered deer tags per WMU for archery. The rest of the archery season would remain the same.

For regular season, take the first 5 days of each season and make it limited draw by WMU, the same as archery. Extend the back end of the season in the southern zone only by 3 days to compensate for the loss of the first 5 days of general tag use. The northern zone regular season is already pretty long so I don't think taking away 5 days of general would hurt anyone that badly.

Then, from January 13, 2019 to January 19, 2019 (Middle 7 days of January) I would add an either-sex season by WMU, where needed. Example: If WMU 8J doesn't reach the quota set by DEC during the previous seasons it will be open for hunting. If it did reach quota, it will be closed. Since this would be mop-up, issue these either-sex tags on a first-come-first-served basis. Give DEC from ~December 18 to December 31 to run the numbers and then issue the amount of tags per WMU. Tags go on sale Jan 1 and don't close until gone or the season closes, whichever comes first. This would be any legal implement.

I would also add a Public Land Stamp. If you want to hunt public land (during Deer/Bear Season only) you have to buy a $5 stamp. NY sells on average 750,000 hunting licenses a year. If legislation was written to require a $5 Public Land Access Stamp during Deer/Bear seasons that could raise approximately $3.7M for NYS to put back into the land. This legislation would have to be strictly written so that money didn't get hijacked for other pet projects that have nothing to do with hunting/conservation, but if written properly, it could really help improve some of the state land we have now and possibly allow the state to expand some of these areas through land purchases. 

Cost/Tag breakdown:

Hunting License- $22

Limited Archery- $10

Bowhunting Privilege- $15

Limited Firearms- $10

Regular Firearms- Included in License

DMP- $10

Late Either-Sex- $10

Public Land Access Stamp- $5

Total: $82 if you bought everything

 

If you didn't want limited draw access you don't have to take it. You're only losing 2 days of regular in the southern zone and 5 days of regular in the northern zone. I think the argument could be made that NYS doesn't need a limited archery season so that could be removed and save everyone $10.

 

They can barely get the machines to print licenses you think they can pull this off?

[Don_C]

17 minutes ago, pitweiler said:

Ok, I thought about how to do something like a limited draw in NY and also keep the openess (so-to-speak) that NYS allows hunters (the freedom to take a buck tag anywhere in the state). Perhaps this could give people a chance to go after "Big Hank" and also be free to hunt and shoot what they want.

Move the archery opener up 5 days in each zone. The first five days of that season would be limited draw by WMU. DEC could release a specified amount of antlered deer tags per WMU for archery. The rest of the archery season would remain the same.

For regular season, take the first 5 days of each season and make it limited draw by WMU, the same as archery. Extend the back end of the season in the southern zone only by 3 days to compensate for the loss of the first 5 days of general tag use. The northern zone regular season is already pretty long so I don't think taking away 5 days of general would hurt anyone that badly.

Then, from January 13, 2019 to January 19, 2019 (Middle 7 days of January) I would add an either-sex season by WMU, where needed. Example: If WMU 8J doesn't reach the quota set by DEC during the previous seasons it will be open for hunting. If it did reach quota, it will be closed. Since this would be mop-up, issue these either-sex tags on a first-come-first-served basis. Give DEC from ~December 18 to December 31 to run the numbers and then issue the amount of tags per WMU. Tags go on sale Jan 1 and don't close until gone or the season closes, whichever comes first. This would be any legal implement.

I would also add a Public Land Stamp. If you want to hunt public land (during Deer/Bear Season only) you have to buy a $5 stamp. NY sells on average 750,000 hunting licenses a year. If legislation was written to require a $5 Public Land Access Stamp during Deer/Bear seasons that could raise approximately $3.7M for NYS to put back into the land. This legislation would have to be strictly written so that money didn't get hijacked for other pet projects that have nothing to do with hunting/conservation, but if written properly, it could really help improve some of the state land we have now and possibly allow the state to expand some of these areas through land purchases. 

Cost/Tag breakdown:

Hunting License- $22

Limited Archery- $10

Bowhunting Privilege- $15

Limited Firearms- $10

Regular Firearms- Included in License

DMP- $10

Late Either-Sex- $10

Public Land Access Stamp- $5

Total: $82 if you bought everything

 

If you didn't want limited draw access you don't have to take it. You're only losing 2 days of regular in the southern zone and 5 days of regular in the northern zone. I think the argument could be made that NYS doesn't need a limited archery season so that could be removed and save everyone $10.

 

I fail to understand why people want to change things from the way they are now and make them even more of a mess and more complicated... and a public land access fee in NYS?????? dear lord man... 

 

 

[pitweiler]

My licenses print just fine. I think there are plenty of states that have far more complicated hunting processes than this. If it is so easy, doing this would allow you to theoretically kill 4-5 bucks and 2-3 does, depending on what you took during the either-sex season.

I am by no means an expert or even close to it, but I can tell you that I don't like trying to be serious about this and getting to public land and I see XX amount of people there. It isn't safe and it isn't productive. If you read about a lot of the land NYS owns, they own it because no one else wanted it. They own it because the soil wasn't able to produce crops or the land was too wet. Some of the large expanses of state land are not accessible because they are swamps. I do a lot of e-scouting using On X Hunt Maps. Other than the ADK there isn't much state land that isn't within a few hundred yards of a road. Now, you can go through a find examples that prove me wrong, but this is by far more common than finding a large area of land that isn't close to roads.

If people want to hunt casually, that is totally fine. I completely support that. However, I don't see any reason why the people who are serious about it, or want to be serious about it can't have a 5 day archery and/or a 5 day firearm limited draw season before all the casual hunters hit the woods during regular.

In fact, instead of adding a tag, just make it a privilege. Make is $5, put it in a lottery and then issue out the stamps. I don't see an issue with that.