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DEC Proposes Potential Future "Holiday" Deer Hunt

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47 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

I get what you're are saying to some extent, and don't get me wrong I'm into both hunting and snowmobiling deeper than i would bet 95% of the people on this board.  I would say if you looked at tug hill 80% of the camp revenue comes from snowmobilers compared to 20% hunters.  Are hunters burning 12-20 gallons of gas through their ATV per day of use, like a snowmobile?  I've also got the top of the line bow going, and how often are you replacing that?  I don't see the average hunter spending anywhere near what a snowmobiler does per day if you figure it out.  Hell the expendable cash per day of riding averages out about $150, that's just food and gas.

Tug hill is northern zone,no? That would be unaffected.

I don't see where one week would make a bug difference to the snowmobile crowd. Hunting would be open for 3 months,where most of the time the snow cover isnt great anyway,then 3 months for snowmobiling until the end of march when generally more snow is on the ground. That seems like an ok arrangement,especially when you consider how much snowmobiling relies on private land owner cooperation. Hunting does not require that.

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6 minutes ago, BowmanMike said:

Tug hill is northern zone,no? That would be unaffected.

I don't see where one week would make a bug difference to the snowmobile crowd. Hunting would be open for 3 months,where most of the time the snow cover isnt great anyway,then 3 months for snowmobiling until the end of march when generally more snow is on the ground. That seems like an ok arrangement,especially when you consider how much snowmobiling relies on private land owner cooperation. Hunting does not require that.

we are/were talking about who has a bigger voice in NYS, so snowmobilers in the northern zone do matter.  In the southern zone snowmobilers riding before season is over is already a HUGE problem, and this proposal will make that problem worse.

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NY Snowmobile industry in its entirety is worth $868M (SUNY Potsdam valuation). There are 122K registered snowmobiles in NY as of 2019 (SUNY Potsdam/NYS DMV).

NY is a top three state for hunting/fishing revenue - several multiples larger than the revenue generated by NY snowmobilers' entire industry. If we want to talk deer hunters, there are usually between 550-750K deer hunters in NY. NY hunters spent $1.9B in hunting-related trip expenses alone as of 2015 (NYS Comptroller) - that doesn't include their entire industry. Meaning hotels, bars, restaurants, etc. Keep in mind, just the money sportsmen spend on trips alone is double the entire value of the NY snowmobile industry. Add in the entirety of the top-3 state's worth...and it's not close.

Thinking the snowmobile industry is going to shoot down a season to better help control deer numbers, especially in areas where needed, seems questionable. Will they put up a fight? Yep. Will it have an impact - probably not as much as the hunter input, full well knowing the DEC has been trying to expand seasons with a bangstick for 15+ years.

Edited by phade
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13 minutes ago, phade said:

NY Snowmobile industry in its entirety is worth $868M (SUNY Potsdam valuation). There are 122K registered snowmobiles in NY as of 2019 (SUNY Potsdam/NYS DMV).

NY is a top three state for hunting/fishing revenue - several multiples larger than the revenue generated by NY snowmobilers' entire industry. If we want to talk deer hunters, there are usually between 550-750K deer hunters in NY. NY hunters spent $1.9B in hunting-related trip expenses alone as of 2015 (NYS Comptroller) - that doesn't include their entire industry. Meaning hotels, bars, restaurants, etc. Keep in mind, just the money sportsmen spend on trips alone is double the entire value of the NY snowmobile industry. Add in the entirety of the top-3 state's worth...and it's not close.

Thinking the snowmobile industry is going to shoot down a season to better help control deer numbers, especially in areas where needed. Will they put up a fight? Yep. Will it have an impact - probably not as much as the hunter input, full well knowing the DEC has been trying to expand seasons with a bangstick for 15+ years.

Sorry, something about your numbers doesn't add up.  Using your numbers, you are saying that hunters spend 1.9 billion dollars per year on trip expenses only, using the highest end of your number of deer hunters at 750,000 you are saying that every single hunter spends $2533 per year on just trip expenses to deer hunt?  Sorry, don't buy it...

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1 minute ago, Rack Attack said:

Sorry, something about your numbers doesn't add up.  Using your numbers, you are saying that hunters spend 1.9 billion dollars per year on trip expenses only, using the highest end of your number of deer hunters at 750,000 you are saying that every single hunter spends $2533 per year on just trip expenses to deer hunt?  Sorry, don't buy it...

Is the fishing in there too?


I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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1 minute ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

Is the fishing in there too?

That's my point, the high numbers being shown are for ALL hunting and fishing in the state, not deer hunting.

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4 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

Sorry, something about your numbers doesn't add up.  Using your numbers, you are saying that hunters spend 1.9 billion dollars per year on trip expenses only, using the highest end of your number of deer hunters at 750,000 you are saying that every single hunter spends $2533 per year on just trip expenses to deer hunt?  Sorry, don't buy it...

It's hunting and fishing detail. But again, what the data points is that even in your most scaled back assessment of deer hunters alone - the hunting industry has a larger voice. All of snowmobiling is worth less than a billion.

Here is the line from the comptroller:

Spending on hunting- and fishing-related activities totaled over $5 billion in New York, 5.6 percent of the total expenditures by hunters and fishermen nationwide. Nearly $1.9 billion was for trip-related purchases including transportation, food and lodging. Such expenditures, which rank the State second in the nation, play important roles in local economies in many rural parts of Upstate New York, as well as some communities on Long Island.

I did some back of napkin math based on that report - hunters worth $2.25B in NY in most conservative measurement.

Edited by phade

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And, at this point, I'll bow out of the back and forth. At the end of the day, I firmly believe data indicates hunting community has a higher valuation and voice when all said and done. Most hunters are not just deer hunters, but high majority of NY hunters deer hunt.

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I wouldn't be suprised if fishing generated more revenue then hunting and for this discussion shouldn't even be used in the equation.

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30 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

I would love an extra week of ML season after Christmas.  Hopefully, crossbows will be legal then.  

I had to reread the DEC proposal and I didn't see where Crossbow's would not be allowed so I'm thinking they ARE allowed ?


Answer to No One !

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9 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

I wouldn't be suprised if fishing generated more revenue then hunting and for this discussion shouldn't even be used in the equation.

$2.25B vs. $868B using some details I was able to glean elsewhere.

Alot of snowmobile revenue is focused on the northern zone; alot of the revenue for hunting is focused on the southern zone (I think we would directionally agree on that). This scenario is focused on the southern zone.

 

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1 minute ago, phade said:

$2.25B vs. $868B using some details I was able to glean elsewhere.

Alot of snowmobile revenue is focused on the northern zone; alot of the revenue for hunting is focused on the southern zone (I think we would directionally agree on that). This scenario is focused on the southern zone.

 

I still dont believe those numbers are even close , its amazing how facts can be cherry picked to fit a narrative.  The first search I pulled up showed hunting tags made up 50 million dollars in sales ,that includes fishing, I sure would be curious what hunters are spending all this other money on as well as what expenses they left out of the snowmobilers total. If we are going to include equipment as well then its no contest that sledders spend more money. Another figure we'll never be able to accurately total is what kind of revenue the local businesses bring in ,but I've heard more then one bar owner say that sledding season is their busiest time of the year if the trails are rideable. 

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The restaurants in Sinclaireville and Cherry Creek dont even bother to open for breakfast opening weekend of deer season any more. Its truly shame. I blame the monday opener but thats a different thread

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I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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57 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

I still dont believe those numbers are even close , its amazing how facts can be cherry picked to fit a narrative.  The first search I pulled up showed hunting tags made up 50 million dollars in sales ,that includes fishing, I sure would be curious what hunters are spending all this other money on as well as what expenses they left out of the snowmobilers total. If we are going to include equipment as well then its no contest that sledders spend more money. Another figure we'll never be able to accurately total is what kind of revenue the local businesses bring in ,but I've heard more then one bar owner say that sledding season is their busiest time of the year if the trails are rideable. 

Personally,  I'm pretty comfortable digesting and interpreting numbers from a financial perspective and pulled from reputable sources - NYS comptroller, SUNY Potsdam, NYS DMV. I don't rely on what a bar owner says, and that might just be a personal difference.

Found this older one, too.

In the Congressional Sportsmen’s Foundation quinquennial study, it is estimated that New York’s hunters contributed over $2.25 billion ($2,732.57 per hunter) to the State’s economy in 2011 which directly supported nearly 24,000 jobs (Congressional Sportsmen’s Foundation, 2013b). Hunters purchase trips, tree stands, rifles, bows, arrows, ammunition, fuel for their vehicles, etc. to engage in their pursuits.

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What "trips" are hunters in NYS purchasing in any significant volume? Im sure fishing is the lions share of that number

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I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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I certainly see where hunters spend more in gear than snowmobilers, I dont question that at all


I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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2 hours ago, GreeneHunter said:

I had to reread the DEC proposal and I didn't see where Crossbow's would not be allowed so I'm thinking they ARE allowed ?

Crossbows are legal late season now , would be same in an change to late seasons..

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I've hunted almost everyday of my life.. the rest have been wasted!

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Not gonna pass bill ,after the snowmobilers have their say . Then add the small business owners who will gladly take the side of the snowmobilers who benefit from the trails being open. 
Regulation not law right? If DEC wants it itll happen.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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Upper Hudson River Valley QDMA

 

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12 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

What "trips" are hunters in NYS purchasing in any significant volume? Im sure fishing is the lions share of that number

The 2.25B number is explicit to hunters in that one study. Hunters trips are no different than snowmobilers trips. Many hunters live in NYC and come upstate and spend money. Many go to the Dacks and spend money, etc.

I found one line from the DEC that said 500K deer hunters bring in $1.5B but that line is pretty old from what I can see and we're ballpark 600K now. All indications are that deer hunters are still higher than what the snowmobile data shows. Again, just actuals reported in studies and not using what bar owners say or infer.

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I love the idea, when I was a kid in PA we hunted the holiday week in Alleghany County and it was awesome with warmer temps and light snowfall in SW Pa that time of year. I can only see doing this here in WNY if we are having very mild winter. The properties I hunt are usually snowed in before the end of regular season.

 

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3 minutes ago, phade said:

The 2.25B number is explicit to hunters in that one study. Hunters trips are no different than snowmobilers trips. Many hunters live in NYC and come upstate and spend money. Many go to the Dacks and spend money, etc.

I found one line from the DEC that said 500K deer hunters bring in $1.5B but that line is pretty old from what I can see and we're ballpark 600K now. All indications are that deer hunters are still higher than what the snowmobile data shows. Again, just actuals reported in studies and not using what bar owners say or infer.

walk into any outdoors store and compare the amount of hunting and fishing equipment to snowmobile.  I dont think snowmobile riding is all that big these days.  Its Bass Pro - not Snow pro lol , and add in outdoor sections at walmart etc. 

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4 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

walk into any outdoors store and compare the amount of hunting and fishing equipment to snowmobile.  I dont think snowmobile riding is all that big these days.  Its Bass Pro - not Snow pro lol , and add in outdoor sections at walmart etc. 

I dont dispute that at all. I was originally commenting on the bars and restaurants, snowmobiling season is huge for them where hunters arent a blip on the radar anymore

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I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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Only on a hunting forum would a potential about adding hunting days turn into who spends more....

Hunters or snowmobile riders.

:rofl:

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Give it a name, apply human sentiment, and its no longer a wild animal its a Disney character.

 

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3 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

Only on a hunting forum would a potential about adding hunting days turn into who spends more....

Hunters or snowmobile riders.

:rofl:

Direct correlation: they will be a huge opponent of the bill


I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread

-Mitch Hedberg

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