Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[ELMER J. FUDD]

It makes sense, but that recent PA report says it's 50% the does genes and 50% the bucks genes. So does culling even work in the long run? I'm second guessing tha logic now. I'd like to see more proof that the bucks genes only contribute 50% of the offspring characteristics.

[sampotter]

There is no correlation between the number of points a yearling deer has and how big their racks are at maturity. Phenotype(what wee see) is genetics + environment. A lot of the time environment makes up more than 70% of the equation. Read this article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/general/news/story?page=c_fea_QDMA_spike_equation

[Doc]

I think one major difference is when someone shows up with some little runt of a deer, I may engage in some light-hearted kidding and it's all known to be good spirited joking around. And in the end, a slap on the back and a completely sincere congratulations are in order.

But I get the feeling that some people darn near take it all as being some kind of a personal affront and actually turn the whole thing into some big negative deal that actually is meant to ruin whatever pride and satisfaction that the hunter may derive from his hunt. I know everybody denies it, but I have detected attitudes that have that kind of message coming through. Man, I don't think that is right. That's getting entirely too serious about something that is supposed to be recreation. 

Doc

[biggamefish]

There is no correlation between the number of points a yearling deer has and how big their racks are at maturity. Phenotype(what wee see) is genetics + environment. A lot of the time environment makes up more than 70% of the equation. Read this article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/general/news/story?page=c_fea_QDMA_spike_equation

Interesting article.  Thanks for sharing it. 

I believe that there are big deer anywhere you go.  I have said this before and got flack for it but there will always be a dominate buck chasing does in any area.  They are big for one reason they are smart and you don't see them.  I do believe that their are areas with many more big bucks than others.  I have taken some very very nice deer in places where people say there is nothing bigger than a basket rack six.  Then I show them my mounts and they argue that I didn't shoot that deer anywhere near there.  There Are big bucks in your area just put in your time.

[Buckstopshere]

Right you are Doc! That is the real, traditional aspect of hunting that has become marginalized by the "growing-harvesting-monster" worshippers that has become so tyrannical.

I have the greatest regard for Dr. Kroll, but have to take issue with his conclusions in the above quoted piece.

"Also, younger does usually produce fewer fawns, so maintaining control of the population is not as difficult in the future."

As time goes on, having a young doe age structure allows you to better take advantage of improving  nutritional conditions and overall genetic makeup of the remaining herd."

I disagree. Instead, let the old doe walk, shoot the young ones. The old does will produce more deer for the future. And if you want to upset your local rut activity, shoot a couple old does and see what happens. We are talking about hunting wild deer here with a real deer season and real hunters with limited time and wherewithal.

And you know what he is implying by "improving nutritional conditions." Fewer deer. A myth to create an "uber deer." Where is it all headed? These scientists...

Secondly,  "If  you have been doing a good job of culling bucks, the younger does are the  ones most likely to have been conceived by the higher antler quality bucks  you have left to breed. 

Wait a minute.  Who is doing a good job culling bucks? Is anyone in NY or Pa. doing "a good job..?" What and who determines a good job? More fodder for hunters to talk out their butts. It appears that Dr. Kroll is writing about Texas and the huge parcel-controlled high fence hunting that is there.

Who is going to set the standard for which bucks to cull and which bucks to let walk...especially if everyone with a rifle, bow or shotgun can only shoot bucks with three points or more, no matter the age? This is the real world, not a scientific laboratory. That article is proof why scientists should only advise. It's like the atomic scientists at Roswell writing about nuclear disarmament treaties.

The culling of whitetails in real wild hunting situations is a myth because it is too difficult to discern age, size, strain, and most of all...that mysterious and most oversold idea in this AR debate... genetic potential. Who here knows genetic potential when they see it? None of us would know it if it bit us where we sit.

By the way Doc....got any extra pills? 

[Griff]

I know this will upset alot of people, but my feelings are harvest what you want on your land but dont tell me what I can and can not take on mine. I hunt for the fun of it and the meat.

[furman_ny]

Doesnt upset me at all Griff, thats the way I look at it too. Also one of the reasons why I dont think you will see statewide ARs, gonna be a tough sell telling EVERY landowner that buys a license AND pays taxes on his land that he CANNOT shoot what he wishes.

[erussell]

Doesnt upset me at all Griff, thats the way I look at it too. Also one of the reasons why I dont think you will see statewide ARs, gonna be a tough sell telling EVERY landowner that buys a license AND pays taxes on his land that he CANNOT shoot what he wishes.

Your land is only rented to you by the state and the deer belong to everyone in NY. If you don't beleive me don't pay you taxes and shoot a deer out of season and you will see who owns what.   They will put AR in place if enough people say they want it wether or not everyone wants it or if its right or not.

[SteveB]

They will put AR in place if enough people say they want it wether or not everyone wants it or if its right or not.

Without a legitimate poll of all hunters, how do we know how many truley want it?

[erussell]

They will put AR in place if enough people say they want it wether or not everyone wants it or if its right or not.

Without a legitimate poll of all hunters, how do we know how many truley want it?

Same way they come up with Population #'s. 1 doe, 1 fawn, 1 spike = 20 deer per square mile with trophy potential.

[bushnell]

I have hunted PA for the last 15 years and I have not seen 1 difference in the size bucks in the area I hunt. The only observations I have taken notice since the antler restrictions have taken effect is 1. the deer herd is still diminishing (which is more along the line of way too many doe permits are being distributed) and 2. There are fewer hunters in the woods; the main reason I have heard is: why do I want to buy a license when I don't see deer like I use to and if I do see one I probably won't be able to shoot it because it won't be legal.

One of my main reasons of why I don't care for antler restrictions is I have seen and heard about dead buck laying on the ground because after the hunter shot it they notice that it is not legal so they just let it lay. I guarantee that most of you on this forum will see or will hear about a dead buck that was left to rot and feed the coyotes within the first 2 years.

[Buckstopshere]

I agree with your observations, Bushnell, having hunted Pa. for the last 38 years. Hopefully, NY will not put in any more ARs so we won't have to witness the scenario of the waste of a buck you as you correctly mentioned happens in Pa. as collateral damage not only to the deer herd, but to hunter's ethics.

[Doc]

Check this quote out: "The 308,920 deer bagged reflected an 8 percent decline from the previous year. The buck kill — 108,330 — was the lowest recorded since the agency began its present system of estimating harvests in 1986."

I have heard loud howls coming out of the Keystone State about miserable doe scarcity, but now they have severe declines in buck harvests too? I have to wonder just what is so wonderful about a system that produces these results. Is this the shining example of AR? It sounds ok if you want to kill hunting.

Doc

[sampotter]

It appears you can put whatever spin you want on it. This article shows the benefits of ARs in PA http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/huntingtactics/NAW_0907_10/

If all you want is to see 30-40 does a day and whack an immature buck before his prime; don't support ARs. If you want a healthy deer herd and a legitimate chance at a whopper; support ARs. It is harder to kill a mature buck than a yearling however. I'm pretty sure the farmers in PA are thankful for a decrease in doe numbers too.

[wztirem]

No doubting the spin part!

[steve863]

Sure, everyone will put their own spin on it, but I surely will believe the PA game department take on it before I will believe anything anyone has written in North American Whitetail magazine where all they talk about is big bucks and how to grow them bigger.  The PA department has stated that bucks now are NO bigger than they were before AR's.  That is enough proof for me that AR's don't work.

[Doc]

Yeah, you're right. You can put any spin on it you want. But I guess the numbers cannot be spun. They simply indicate less opportunity for PA hunters. Not just among does, but also buck harvests as well. Frankly, I believe most hunters are out there to get a deer. I could be wrong but I always thought that was kind of the object of deer hunting. That may be an inconvenient fact, but are we really trying to frustrate hunters out of the sport?

When buck harvests have moved back 23 years and perhaps even more, That's quite a dramatic contraction. Certainly nothing to be ignored by other states that are discussing following the same route.

I have to wonder, with all these bucks not being harvested because of AR, where are all the bucks going? If they're not all growing up and eventually getting harvested, where exactly are they going? Something sure is not turning out as advertised.

Doc

[bushnell]

Doc, I would have to agree with you. Growing up, deer hunting was just that DEER HUNTING. I don't know why we have to place restrictions on the size deer you have to shoot. Maybe one of the reasons why the amount of deer being harvested is lower is because we are losing hunters.

I guarantee that NY will lose hunters if they implement an AR state wide. I hunt with 7 other guys from PA and atleast half of them stated that if NY goes AR then they are going to stop hunting up there. I know what some guys think (I use to think the same way but have changed). If those guys quit hunting then that means more deer in the woods that they won't harvest. But now those guys are walking in and out of the woods moving the deer from one location to another. That just means less deer you will see.

[wztirem]

Doc, I would have to agree with you. Growing up, deer hunting was just that DEER HUNTING. I don't know why we have to place restrictions on the size deer you have to shoot. Maybe one of the reasons why the amount of deer being harvested is lower is because we are losing hunters.

I guarantee that NY will lose hunters if they implement an AR state wide. I hunt with 7 other guys from PA and atleast half of them stated that if NY goes AR then they are going to stop hunting up there. I know what some guys think (I use to think the same way but have changed). If those guys quit hunting then that means more deer in the woods that they won't harvest. But now those guys are walking in and out of the woods moving the deer from one location to another. That just means less deer you will see.

[/quote

As long as the DEC, maintains their position concerning the expansion of AR in other DMU's;there is nothing to worry about!

[erussell]

Doc, I would have to agree with you. Growing up, deer hunting was just that DEER HUNTING. I don't know why we have to place restrictions on the size deer you have to shoot. Maybe one of the reasons why the amount of deer being harvested is lower is because we are losing hunters.

I guarantee that NY will lose hunters if they implement an AR state wide. I hunt with 7 other guys from PA and atleast half of them stated that if NY goes AR then they are going to stop hunting up there. I know what some guys think (I use to think the same way but have changed). If those guys quit hunting then that means more deer in the woods that they won't harvest. But now those guys are walking in and out of the woods moving the deer from one location to another. That just means less deer you will see.

[/quote

As long as the DEC, maintains their position concerning the expansion of AR in other DMU's;there is nothing to worry about!

Not necessarily, More deer from less hunters and less pressure would mean more deer movement and more natural deer movement during the day and not at night.

[Buckstopshere]

erussel: You are dead nuts right. Fewer hunters mean for those of us that are left in the woods...more deer walking in the daytime.

More for ME!

But who wants fewer hunters? For once I am trying not to be greedy, knowing I only have, Lord willing a few more years of deer hunting left. And if I was greedy, I would say...gung ho to AR's. Make fun of everyone who shoots a small buck, drive everyone out of the deer woods like what is happening in Pa. and that way there would be more for ME! AR's - Great philosophy. Elitism, plain and simple. 

And you know, the 500-lb. monkey in the room is that the more money one has, the bigger bucks they can shoot. That's a pretty straight correlation.

Doesn't mean anybody is a better hunter, a better shot...just they can buy it.

Elitism has no place in the deer woods.

[Larry]

anyone read the new Outdoorlife

[Doewhacker]

buckstopshere..very well said.. you are on a roll tonight sir.

Larry, yes I did and a few others here so far, I though it was a good read and nice to a perspective out side of our own vacuum.

[WNYBuckHunter]

the more money one has, the bigger bucks they can shoot. That's a pretty straight correlation.

Im not one necessarily for mandatory AR, but that statement is a crock of you know what. I know of one guy that has multiple 160+ deer on his wall, a few 180+ deer included and more 120+ sets of antlers from bucks hes shot than he knows what to do with. He even had one of the NY records for a couple of years until another guy near him dropped one that broke his record. He owns @ 20 acres and hunts a couple of other small parcels. Hes not rich, not even close. Hes not the only guy I know thats just your average Joe income-wise, that consistently drop big bucks.

[Doc]

Not necessarily, More deer from less hunters and less pressure would mean more deer movement and more natural deer movement during the day and not at night.

That's not the way it seems to work in our area. We get the big push during the first few hours of opening day and then it starts sounding like there is no hunting season going. The actual pressure afterwards gets very light but the damage is done. There's not enough guys in the woods to kick up deer from their hide-and-go-seek positions, but just enough to reinforce that increased survival mode throughout the season. It doesn't seem to take a whole lot of hunters to keep the deer in a nocturnal state and using their best hiding tactics, and apparently the occasional sound of even far away gunfire takes on a whole new meaning to the deer and suppresses normal feeding and breeding activities until the after hours safety of darkness.

I always figured that if the hunting pressure continued to fall each year that eventually we would have basic bowhunting conditions and patterns in gun season. Well, that has never happened and probably never will ...... lol.

Doc