Arrow speed VS Arrow momentum

[wooly]

At what point is hunting no longer hunting with all the technology advancements. I have no range finder, no electronic wind telling device, no ear piece to help me hear game, no rifle that can shoot a million and one yards, no darn electronic anything.

 

About the most technologically advanced thing i have is a mathews bow lol

 

Now, some of you guys may be with me on this and some may not, either or is cool with me. I just hunt, i have hunted long enough to know what do to do and i dont need technology to improve my hunting skills. The only way to do that is sit in a tree and watch and learn.

 

Whose with me!! 

 

Pssssst...., you might want to change your avator to something other than a trail cam pic after a statement like that,lol

Other than that...., I'm with ya!

[Pygmy]

 

Pig Latin suits you.

 

Thanks, Shawn...From you I consider that a compliment..

[Doc]

At what point is hunting no longer hunting with all the technology advancements. I have no range finder, no electronic wind telling device, no ear piece to help me hear game, no rifle that can shoot a million and one yards, no darn electronic anything.

 

About the most technologically advanced thing i have is a mathews bow lol

 

Now, some of you guys may be with me on this and some may not, either or is cool with me. I just hunt, i have hunted long enough to know what do to do and i dont need technology to improve my hunting skills. The only way to do that is sit in a tree and watch and learn.

 

Whose with me!! 

The thing is that technology does NOT improve hunting skills. In fact it usually attempts to replace hunting skills. The trick is to find the stopping place for each individual where they can utilize some level of technology without being crippled by it. That is a decision that each hunter has to make for themselves. That Mathews bow that you use does actually represent one heck of a pile of modern-day technology, and I'll bet one could take a look at the rest of your set-up and spot all kinds of fairly high-tech stuff when compared to what I started out with. I also might mention that the equipment that I started out with represented some monster technological steps past the weapons of history. Consider those high-tech recurves with laminated limbs and with the modern glues and plastics, manufacturing procedures of Fred Bear's early mass produced bows along with that super-duper Dacron bowstring  and that Hoyt arrow rest with that plastic finger that was adhered to the bow with double sided tape was the latest thing on the market. I started out with the hottest bow hunting setup that made the ancient bows of the Turks look like true crap.

 

The point is that everybody has to make up their own minds as to where their comfort level is with the technology that belongs in this so-called primitive weapons season called bowseason. I understand what you are saying, and it appears to me that somewhere along the line, we have crossed some invisible line when it comes to bowhunting. But the fact is that no two people really can agree on where that line is. I am beginning to be convinced that there is no such line and never will be. Someone will always be trying to push the envelope until eventually you will not even know how to define the sport anymore.

[skyhunter]

speed is a common selling point for manufacturers targeting ignorant entry level shooters. While it is also fairly common with compounds it is overly done with crossbows. Why?; because most gun hunters looking to make the move to a crossbow know very little about archery and they can be lead to believe that faster is always better. Not actually true though. One manufacturer goes as far as stating how much speed each dollar that you spend gets you; then comparing that number to other manufacturers. this is pure BS.

For hunting purposes there are many variables that factor into what is the ideal setup for a given situation or species of game. I recall a guy from Florida that bowhunted with my Missouri buddy and he flung X cutters at bucks. Talk about a bad hunting choice. Yea, those 3D arrows flew fast but they are extremely weak on impact and the large diameter combined with very light weight will also be greatly affected by wind drift. Yea, they're fast but have a large potential to be very inaccurate in the field.

Faster arrows are usually lighter and these will also penetrate less when coming in contact with bone. I have busted through some ribs on both sides and also had arrows deflect of both shoulder bone and spinal column resulting in kills. My choice in arrow shaft is the 18/64th inch diameter Eastons in 340 flex, which the chart says is overspined for my 60lb Bowtech Invasion. Overspined arrow doesn't totally compute in my book; underspined, weak, and light certainly does though.

My total arrow weight is 405 which I feel gives me the best of both worlds for my setup; decent speed with moderate mass. When I went after Bull Elk I bumped it up to 440 and took a nice P+Y bull with that setup. That arrow flew slower but hit a little harder and that was what concerned me on that particular hunt.

Shoot whatever turns you on. While the differences will be fractional at most bowhunting distances, it is a fact that all sports are a game where fractions of inches are the difference between success and failure. Arrow speed is only one variable that factors into killing game animals. Others are equally important. Hunters that put all their eggs in the speed basket will certainly experience negatives associated with their neglect of these other variables.

[thphm]

Howard Hill and ( could have been ) Fred Bear side by side taking turns shooting from 40 to 60 pound bows, arrows at a target ( forgot what measurement system they used ) they shot 400 to 700 grain arrows,taking turns with each bow and arrows.They came up with the conclusion that the 600 grain arrow was the minimum they would use to kill a deer with any of the bows fro 40 - 60 pound draw weight. 

 Arrows. a smaller diameter arrow will fly faster then a larger dia. arrow of the same weight.

Broad heads. a four blade broad head will bleed an animal more the a 2 or 3 blade of the same weight in front of the same weight and spline arrow.  

So if you could find a carbon or carbon over aluminum arrow, slpined for your bow weighing 600 grains with a 4 blade broad head other then where your arrow hits, there is no reason that a deer should not bleed to death quick.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Now that weve gotten into the technology side of hunting, and bow hunting in particular, who saw this year's first episode of Deer & Deer Hunting TV today? I just got done watching it from my DVR. Right toward the end, one of the guys was talking about shooting your bow out at long range. He said that with today's bows, target shooting out to 100 yards is no real problem, and he also said that todays rigs pretty much shoot themselves. Interesting view on things if you ask me.

[coonhunter]

I am with you Truth2. Although I do use a compound bow and carbon arrows now. Last week i put three arrows through the chrono and I know it will be hard for some to believe, but they registered at a whopping 249,250,and 249. This set-up is tried and true for me and I am confident out to 45 yards even though I have only shot one buck over 40 yards my whole life. Most of my stand set-ups have me in tight quarters with average shots being in the 15-20 yard range. Just my preference not to hunt fields.

 

At this speed, I have clean pass throughs almost every time. This is with plain old beman arrows and 75gr muzzys. Once in awhile, if I have a sharper angle, the broadhead hits the offside shoulder blade and sticks or comes back out.

 

I just enjoy the game of matching wits with the nicer bucks and my fellow hunters. I love looking at trail cam pictures, but don't put any out. Hell, the arrows in my quiver have all been thru several deer. I just check them and resharpen if needed. Everybody enjoys their own way of hunting, and this is just what works for me.

[wdswtr]

Now that weve gotten into the technology side of hunting, and bow hunting in particular, who saw this year's first episode of Deer & Deer Hunting TV today? I just got done watching it from my DVR. Right toward the end, one of the guys was talking about shooting your bow out at long range. He said that with today's bows, target shooting out to 100 yards is no real problem, and he also said that todays rigs pretty much shoot themselves. Interesting view on things if you ask me.

 

Who was the sponsor of the bow he was shooting?  This is what I believe the manufactures want newbies to think and his choice of wording was probably planted in his head by the sponsor.  Just another reason I quit watching hunting shows, they are nothing but walking sponsors of BS. 

[ncountry]

Now that weve gotten into the technology side of hunting, and bow hunting in particular, who saw this year's first episode of Deer & Deer Hunting TV today? I just got done watching it from my DVR. Right toward the end, one of the guys was talking about shooting your bow out at long range. He said that with today's bows, target shooting out to 100 yards is no real problem, and he also said that todays rigs pretty much shoot themselves. Interesting view on things if you ask me.

I do not shoot deer past 40 yds (95% of the time).but my standard practice distance is 65 yds. I find this give me lots of confidence at the shorter distances.A 20-30yd shot seems like a chip shot now..lol

[Doc]

Now that weve gotten into the technology side of hunting, and bow hunting in particular, who saw this year's first episode of Deer & Deer Hunting TV today? I just got done watching it from my DVR. Right toward the end, one of the guys was talking about shooting your bow out at long range. He said that with today's bows, target shooting out to 100 yards is no real problem, and he also said that todays rigs pretty much shoot themselves. Interesting view on things if you ask me.

Ha-ha .... why stop at 100 yards? I guess that's just a nice round number. Isn't it in the FITA tournaments where they shoot at 100 meters? And that is not just with today's technology, but is done with recurves. Ever watch old movies of Darrell Pace shooting. The freaking arrow starts heading up into the sky and takes forever to get to the target. Really the guy was a machine, but it's probably not too realistic to think that anybody can go out and do that.

 

It all puts me in mind of a demo that the late Stacey Groscup put on at the old Creekside Gun Shop, where he was shooting aspirins out of the air with his recurve. Yes, it can be done. But a archer could drive themselves berserk trying to do that if someone were to lead them to believe that that is an expected level of bowhunter marksmanship.

 

As far as trying to transfer archery range proficiency to hunting potential .... well we have volumes previously written here about all the different ways that kind of mentality can foul things up. Some people simply don't worry about wounding potential and they will continue doing as they please. It's just unfortunate that there are those that will spread that non-sense over the TV airwaves.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Who was the sponsor of the bow he was shooting? This is what I believe the manufactures want newbies to think and his choice of wording was probably planted in his head by the sponsor. Just another reason I quit watching hunting shows, they are nothing but walking sponsors of BS.

Mathews is their sponsor.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I do not shoot deer past 40 yds (95% of the time).but my standard practice distance is 65 yds. I find this give me lots of confidence at the shorter distances.A 20-30yd shot seems like a chip shot now..lol

I practice at 50 and 60 yards as well. It does help make the shorter shots feel easier.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ha-ha .... why stop at 100 yards? I guess that's just a nice round number. Isn't it in the FITA tournaments where they shoot at 100 meters? And that is not just with today's technology, but is done with recurves. Ever watch old movies of Darrell Pace shooting. The freaking arrow starts heading up into the sky and takes forever to get to the target. Really the guy was a machine, but it's probably not too realistic to think that anybody can go out and do that.

It all puts me in mind of a demo that the late Stacey Groscup put on at the old Creekside Gun Shop, where he was shooting aspirins out of the air with his recurve. Yes, it can be done. But a archer could drive themselves berserk trying to do that if someone were to lead them to believe that that is an expected level of bowhunter marksmanship.

As far as trying to transfer archery range proficiency to hunting potential .... well we have volumes previously written here about all the different ways that kind of mentality can foul things up. Some people simply don't worry about wounding potential and they will continue doing as they please. It's just unfortunate that there are those that will spread that non-sense over the TV airwaves.

I agree, I just thought the comments were an interesting take, especially given the recent subject matter on here.

[Five Seasons]

Back in the day when I used to eat, sleep and breathe archery, I used to read every technical article and test report of each and every new bow, arrow, and any other archery related trinket and gadget. I'd be the first out there to argue any little, nearly insignificant, virtue of bow features and performances. I have torn apart and rebuilt more bows than most people have ever owned. I think that is just typical of anybody who is totally immersed in anything. It becomes obsessive. I certainly understand it and have been there.

 

Today, I simply hunt. I found an archery set-up that gets deer within the limitations that I have set for myself. The bow is now getting quite old (I believe we are closing in on 10 years old now). The arrows are old Easton aluminums (some from the late 70's). The release and arrow rest is the same age as the bow (nothing special). Just a couple years ago, I was using some old Bear Razorheads of a late 1960's vintage. My sight is a home-made one with parts from an old Cobra sight of the 1980's. The story these days is if it ain't broke, it ain't going to be replaced. My emphasis is now on the hunting, and the techno-trinkets are a thing of the past. It's alright .... I still get deer. In fact, one of my more prolific bows was that old Bear whitetail Hunter with solid epoxy limbs that you could use for a pry-bar if you so desired ... lol. Speed? Well it didn't fare well in that department, but it sure did get deer.

 

Anyway, if people still like to argue about that last FPS, or that last Ft-Pound of energy, I certainly understand it. Been there .... Done that. But I also appreciate the school of thought that says, "Just get out there and kill a deer", because that's where I'm at today.

 

very well put. although i'd recommend you ditch the aluminum for some carbons. I think my switchback is close if not older than 10 as well. I've replaced the whisker biscuit for a drop away, and changed my scot release to the palm strap wins free. Otherwise its the same setup i started with. New arrows last year too. They seem more consistent, but that could just be me getting better.

 

If you're killing deer, don't mess with it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Broad heads. a four blade broad head will bleed an animal more the a 2 or 3 blade of the same weight in front of the same weight and spline arrow.  

 Not to take a side road, but the one comment made me think back to when I took the Bow Hunter Education course. They strongly suggested using a 3 blade over a 4 or a 2. They showed us the muscle mass on the sides of a deer and actually did a demonstration using a picture frame with hundreds of rubber bads stretched across it in the patterns of the muscle groups. If I remember correctly their assertion was not on the actual cutting of the internal organs but the cutting of the surrounding muscle which would allow a better blood trail.  When they shot different style arrows through the frames the broad heads cut the bands and it was amazing how many more rubber bands the 3 blade cut over the 2 or 4 blade. They said, because of the pattern of the muscles you are more likely to have a blade cut along the gran of the muscle and not across it. This would allow less blood through and less of a blood trail. For what it is worth.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[WNYBuckHunter]

I remember the same spiel Culver.

[phade]

Mathews is their sponsor.

 

I've lost some fanfare/desire for D&DH in the past few years. I'm not sure if they are suffering from the market (print media) collapsing or if there are leadership problems....but that rag isn't what it used to be 5 years ago and certainly not 5-10 years ago. It's still one of the top three overall, but then, it was heads and shoulder leader in the industry. And, that's coming from someone who has had work and photos published in it.

 

Separately, while this is an engaging discussion, it is more relevant to western/target/spot/league shooting IMO. It's too granular for deer hunting beyond having the necessary energy/momentum/speed to make a deadly, accurate shot.

 

My bows are 2010 models and they are NOT speed demons even by 2010 standards. In fact, they're downright slow imo at 28" and 60lbs. My arrows are middle of the road weight and I shoot a relatively small mech and quality fixed bhs. I get pass throughs on the large majority of whitetails and the ones I don't are because they hit an offside shoulder or the indian behind the bow messed up. I'd be shocked if my hunting setup chrono'd beyond 260...and amazed if it broke 255.

 

The problem is when people try to push the limits of the bow and their capabilities. I do think such talks become more relevant when chatting up elk, moose, etc.

[Doewhacker]

 

same weight and spline arrow.  

.

Not to nit pick but its Spine not spline. 

[Five Seasons]

Now that weve gotten into the technology side of hunting, and bow hunting in particular, who saw this year's first episode of Deer & Deer Hunting TV today? I just got done watching it from my DVR. Right toward the end, one of the guys was talking about shooting your bow out at long range. He said that with today's bows, target shooting out to 100 yards is no real problem, and he also said that todays rigs pretty much shoot themselves. Interesting view on things if you ask me.

 

can you hear me rolling my eyes?

[phade]

can you hear me rolling my eyes?

 

Maybe he was talking about crossbows shooting themselves?

[sits in trees]

I used to stress for hours on end, paper tuning, tweaking tiller, messing with cams and even got into that silly arsed drop away rest thing for a while(great idea, adding more moving parts and another string) when one day I said to myself I've got to streamline this nonsense. I square up my bow, put a Wisker Bisquit on my riser and I shoot better than I ever have. My confidence levels are way up and I enjoy hunting again instead of spending countless hours tinkering with my bow when I can be out scouting and setting blinds, Heck when Xbows become legal I might even have the time to throw down on planting some serious food plots........

[Doewhacker]

haha

I'm not sure how you could see a bullseye at 100? Unless we are talking about something baloon sized of course.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Maybe he was talking about crossbows shooting themselves?

 

Nope, they never came into the talk. As I said, his comments were directed toward target shooting at long range to make the shorter shots easier. You can DVR it, Im sure they will replay it 8 gajillion times lol.

[WNYBuckHunter]

haha

I'm not sure how you could see a bullseye at 100? Unless we are talking about something baloon sized of course.

 

He was talking garbage can lid or basket ball size groups.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Come to think about it, they did throw out a crossbow related tidbit earlier in the show. 22 states now allow crossbows in with their regular archery season.