Arrow speed VS Arrow momentum

[shawnhu]

Doc, what skills do you feel is replaced by technology?

[Doc]

Doc, what skills do you feel is replaced by technology?

First of all, understand that I am speaking pretty much exclusively about bow hunting. I have lived through the evolution of bowhunting to the point today where the equipment doesn't even look like the archery equipment that I grew up with. There is no question that the viable shooting distances have grown tremendously such that the up close and personal requirements of the initial hunting skills have been relaxed somewhat. It used to be that close up shots of 15-20 yards was not simply an option, but was a requirement. I think we all understand the benefit of doubling shooting range when it comes to hunting deer. 

 

And then there is the technology of camo, scents, treestands, and all the peripheral equipment that has allowed some relaxation of basic stealth skills.

 

Also, in terms of mastering the archery equipment, I seldom ever find anyone willing to argue that there has been substantial advantages that have assisted mastery of archery. While the techniques involved in shooting a compound are essentially the same as shooting any bow, and the disciplines are the same, there have been more parts of the bow equipment technology devoted to assisting in the strength aspects and equipment has been made more efficient (speed and light-weight arrow materials) such that trajectory errors have been reduced. Part of the skill of mastering a recurve or longbow involved that wild arc of the arrow that has been reduced by modern bows and arrow materials.

 

I believe anyone who has ever mastered a recurve and then moved on to a compound understands the skills that have been replaced or enhanced through technology of several decades. Also, a lot of us who have tried to step away from the compound and pick up a recurve have been rudely reminded of exactly what additional skills have been lost over the decades ....lol.

[shawnhu]

Doc, from what I gather, you are talking about skills in shooting a bow and some technologies in clothing for stealth. Although related to hunting, I don't see how it has replaced hunting specific skills. <br /><br />As humans invade the habitats of deer and other game, there are less and less game to hunt. In order to have a successful hunt and bring home meat, hunters have relied on increasing range and detection, but that's not to say the basic skills are replaced by $. <br /><br />So, were there other examples of technology replacing hunting specific skills?

[NFA-ADK]

Well the new arrows seem good.  They do not penetrate like the 340 at 9.3 gpi but now I have the ability to add a pin to my sight if I want a 80 yard pin.  I purchased the lighter arrows because I was shooting the 400 at 8.4 gpi.  The new arrows are 8.8 gpi which is closer to the weight I originally shot with the spine I need...  I like shooting long distance for practice.  I am in the 10 spot(heart) out to 65 yards...  Speed = less time for deer jump/more room for errors in distance judging.  I do not use a range finder and the guy I shoot with ranges my target after I shoot.  I am usually with in 2 yards but I practice a LOT!!!  If you shoot your bow at 3D 3 days a week I think you would like the advantages of a faster arrow.  Not sure of the weight of my arrow but the arrow is about 29" with a 100 grain tip.  So 255.2 + 100 = 355.2.  I am sure at over 300 fps it will pass through once I finally pick a worth target to shoot...  I was going to shoot a doe the last day but it was just a yearling, loved when I tried the ma ma call and the mother does charged me from behind!  I thought they were in front, never saw that one in full view as the doe busted me...  COME ONE SEPT 27th!!!! 

 

I like the ability to accurately shoot out to 65 yards, while I would not take that long of a shot on a alert or even standing deer, you can bet the farm I will take one out in its bed at that distance...  And no I don't need to hear how I suck at hunting, cant get close and this is my excuse for being a poor hunter is to use a fast bow so I can shoot at long distance.  I hunt with the equipment I like for many reasons.  Lightness of equipment, (One of the main reasons I purchased the Heli-M...) effective range, and extra time in the woods. 

 

Bow hunting is basically a tool for me to get into the woods and scout with the ability to take a buck if encounter and worthy.  And yes I know doe can be just as challenging, just not for me...  I figure as a trophy hunter many do not see my point of view, to each his own I say.  As long as you enjoy what you do who cares if you are using a traditional bow, compound, crossbow or 7mm mag they will all kill in the proper hands...

 

I Love hunting deep woods but even hunting on LI is fun and that is all that matters is that we enjoy what we do...

I really enjoy long distance shooting, with anything...  Target shooting is fun!!!  4 months off due to injury and I can still nail the elk at 65 yards in the heart!  Happy to be shooting again!!!  Hope this is the year I get my first bow kill!!!

 

 

[josephmrtn]

I think you are mistaking "purchasing success" with actually obtaining hunting skills. There may be some skill involved in using items of new technology, but that does not the same as learning hunting skills. I'll stand by my original statement unless you have some good examples.

I use online maping programs like crazy to help in scouting 

[Doc]

Doc, from what I gather, you are talking about skills in shooting a bow and some technologies in clothing for stealth. Although related to hunting, I don't see how it has replaced hunting specific skills. As humans invade the habitats of deer and other game, there are less and less game to hunt. In order to have a successful hunt and bring home meat, hunters have relied on increasing range and detection, but that's not to say the basic skills are replaced by $. So, were there other examples of technology replacing hunting specific skills?

No, I consider one of the prime bow hunting skills to be the ability to get nearly within touching distance of your prey as there was a time when that was a hunting skill that was required of any successful bowhunter. It all has to do with woodslore and stealth. That IS a hunting skill. A lot of today's technological advances equipment and concealment have taken away much of that requirement. And yes, a lot of the hi-tech peripheral archery and hunting equipment have indeed been invented and sold to cover up lacking hunter skills. These are basic hunter abilities that have lost some of its importance because we have bought our way past the problems.

One way to show the effect of technology on bowhunting is the fact that compounds still enjoy an overwhelming popularity, and there is not a mass movement of people back to recurves and longbows. People are still for the most part staying with compounds and now are even looking towards crossbows. The reason? .... It requires far less skill and dedication to shoot technologically superior weapons. The other piece of evidence is the changes in bowhunting success rates. Absolutely, technology has lessened the required skill level for hunter success and we have the success rates to prove it.

I am not trying to pass judgment on this evolution, but am simply pointing it out. Whether it is a good thing or not depends on point of view, but let's not deny the effects of change and technology.

[Doc]

I use online maping programs like crazy to help in scouting

That is a tool, not a skill.

If you set down your bow and pick up a rifle, have you increased your skills? You have increased your success, but exhibited perhaps even less "skill". You have simply utilized a piece of superior technology (a tool). Utilizing someone else's creation (mapping programs) is a similar sort of thing. It has not increased your personal hunting skills. Someone has invented something to replace your inability to get that over-all visual advantage, but that is not a skill. It actually took a lot more skill to successfully read sign on the ground, and the mapping programs merely serve as a shortcut that makes those skills unnecessary.

Oh well, enough nit-picking over skill vs. technology. The fact is that technology's primary function is to take over the need for individual skills or make them less necessary. Good thing for hunting? .... Bad thing? .... you decide.

[phade]

It's a double edged sword Doc. Good and bad come from it.

 

In some cases it may be that it replaces hunter skill. In others, it may not and instead improves efficiency. I use a range finder, MMS game cameras, compounds, etc. I find it helps with efficiency in me making a clean kill.

 

The other thing is back when, the target was less about mature/rack score. This change in focus en masse is likely more a factor in causing such a thirst for those tech advances.

 

And, picking up a rifle is not necessarily equating to less skill because you perceive it to be a better tool. I know me personally, I am a much better bow shot than a gun shot. In fact my kill ratio is much higher with a bow.

Edited July 25, 2013 by phade

[phade]

That is a tool, not a skill.

If you set down your bow and pick up a rifle, have you increased your skills? You have increased your success, but exhibited perhaps even less "skill". You have simply utilized a piece of superior technology (a tool). Utilizing someone else's creation (mapping programs) is a similar sort of thing. It has not increased your personal hunting skills. Someone has invented something to replace your inability to get that over-all visual advantage, but that is not a skill. It actually took a lot more skill to successfully read sign on the ground, and the mapping programs merely serve as a shortcut that makes those skills unnecessary.

Oh well, enough nit-picking over skill vs. technology. The fact is that technology's primary function is to take over the need for individual skills or make them less necessary. Good thing for hunting? .... Bad thing? .... you decide.

Again Doc, that's only one side of the coin. Reading maps is a skill. the map is a tool.

[josephmrtn]

No, I consider one of the prime bow hunting skills to be the ability to get nearly within touching distance of your prey as there was a time when that was a hunting skill that was required of any successful bowhunter. It all has to do with woodslore and stealth. That IS a hunting skill. A lot of today's technological advances equipment and concealment have taken away much of that requirement. And yes, a lot of the hi-tech peripheral archery and hunting equipment have indeed been invented and sold to cover up lacking hunter skills. These are basic hunter abilities that have lost some of its importance because we have bought our way past the problems.

One way to show the effect of technology on bowhunting is the fact that compounds still enjoy an overwhelming popularity, and there is not a mass movement of people back to recurves and longbows. People are still for the most part staying with compounds and now are even looking towards crossbows. The reason? .... It requires far less skill and dedication to shoot technologically superior weapons. The other piece of evidence is the changes in bowhunting success rates. Absolutely, technology has lessened the required skill level for hunter success and we have the success rates to prove it.

I am not trying to pass judgment on this evolution, but am simply pointing it out. Whether it is a good thing or not depends on point of view, but let's not deny the effects of change and technology.

I would agree with you... however i believe something like that takes YEARS of practice failure before you get good at it, as a newb hunter i am NOT interested in spendig the first 5 or 10 yrs of my hunting seasons without getting a deer cause im not "good enough" yet.... thats why technology is so helpful... ESP for young/new hunters like me...  Dont get me wrong i would LOVE to be able to but how many on this sight can honestly say that they consistently do that?

 

That is a tool, not a skill.

If you set down your bow and pick up a rifle, have you increased your skills? You have increased your success, but exhibited perhaps even less "skill". You have simply utilized a piece of superior technology (a tool). Utilizing someone else's creation (mapping programs) is a similar sort of thing. It has not increased your personal hunting skills. Someone has invented something to replace your inability to get that over-all visual advantage, but that is not a skill. It actually took a lot more skill to successfully read sign on the ground, and the mapping programs merely serve as a shortcut that makes those skills unnecessary.

Oh well, enough nit-picking over skill vs. technology. The fact is that technology's primary function is to take over the need for individual skills or make them less necessary. Good thing for hunting? .... Bad thing? .... you decide.

Yes i is all up to the personal taste of each hunter...

[Doc]

It seems to me that there will come a day when our hunting success will eventually be completely dictated by the efforts of some set of mechanical and electrical designers. I often wrestle with that thought and I try to focus my hunting as simply me against the animal and the woodslore required to take that animal and the knowledge of the prey. Hopefully, my success does not rely on the skills of some inventor working away in his office. One look at my pile of equipment amassed over the years will tell you that I have not been real successful at cutting technology out of my hunting .... lol.

But anyway, I do believe that there is some point where technology has gone too far. We had these guys that tried to come up with computer-hunting.... hunting without the hunter/client ever stepping foot in the woods or laying a finger on a trigger. There was no doubt in my mind that that was going way too far, and yet I do see us heading for that sort of thing at some point in the distant future. No one seems willing to set limits as to what they will allow science and technology to do for them when it comes to hunting. Every generation seems to break down those limits farther and farther.

I think it is an amazing topic and that is why I commented the way I did. I find it interesting as to where everyone today sets their limits. Unfortunately not a lot of people want to even think about such things and seldom ever offer an opinion. Sometimes the silence on that subject is almost scary.

[Elmo]

Just like today where we have some hunters that really shouldn't be hunting due to their lack of practice, they had those back in the days as well.  The number of wounded deer due to poorly placed arrows was staggering even as recent as the 1960's.  Of course that was right before animal ethics became a hot topic but deer with arrows sticking out of their hind quarters was one of the reason why there was an animal ethics movement.

 

No you can choose to go with a recurve and shoot instinctively if you have the skills for it but having such technology available to the masses is certainly not a bad thing.  Remember, hunting is not a competition.  If you want to limit yourself and test yourself, you still can.

 

Comparing us to frontiersmen is totally unfair.  In todays time, we only hunt during the weekend while we work in a cubicle during the week.  Men and women during those times hunt every single day as it was there livelihood.

[Five Seasons]

At what point is hunting no longer hunting with all the technology advancements. I have no range finder, no electronic wind telling device, no ear piece to help me hear game, no rifle that can shoot a million and one yards, no darn electronic anything.

 

crossbows.

 

but on a serious note, the electronics aid, but do not always land the deer. I know plenty of hunters who invest thousands and never shoot a nice deer. And vis versa.

[Five Seasons]

I know of 2 people who shoot custom bows over 100lbs, crazy.  The one guy shot a mulie at 103 yards, and a giant Elk at 70 yards.

 

I've found that playing with my older matthews that the sweet spot is around 60. I have no problem with 70 but i find there is a little "hitch" when i get to the letoff. At 60 it's almost nonexistent.

 

 

I think you are mistaking "purchasing success" with actually obtaining hunting skills. There may be some skill involved in using items of new technology, but that does not the same as learning hunting skills. I'll stand by my original statement unless you have some good examples.

 

I enjoy Joe's opinion on archery. Considering he hasn't even gone through a season yet. No offense Joe, but Doc has forgotten more about archery and hunting than you and I know combined.

 

 

First of all, understand that I am speaking pretty much exclusively about bow hunting. I have lived through the evolution of bowhunting to the point today where the equipment doesn't even look like the archery equipment that I grew up with. There is no question that the viable shooting distances have grown tremendously such that the up close and personal requirements of the initial hunting skills have been relaxed somewhat. It used to be that close up shots of 15-20 yards was not simply an option, but was a requirement. I think we all understand the benefit of doubling shooting range when it comes to hunting deer. 

 

And then there is the technology of camo, scents, treestands, and all the peripheral equipment that has allowed some relaxation of basic stealth skills.

 

Also, in terms of mastering the archery equipment, I seldom ever find anyone willing to argue that there has been substantial advantages that have assisted mastery of archery. While the techniques involved in shooting a compound are essentially the same as shooting any bow, and the disciplines are the same, there have been more parts of the bow equipment technology devoted to assisting in the strength aspects and equipment has been made more efficient (speed and light-weight arrow materials) such that trajectory errors have been reduced. Part of the skill of mastering a recurve or longbow involved that wild arc of the arrow that has been reduced by modern bows and arrow materials.

 

I believe anyone who has ever mastered a recurve and then moved on to a compound understands the skills that have been replaced or enhanced through technology of several decades. Also, a lot of us who have tried to step away from the compound and pick up a recurve have been rudely reminded of exactly what additional skills have been lost over the decades ....lol.

 

we shouldn't underestimate trail cams either. A lot of hunters, myself included rely more and more on them to help reduce the time we really need to scout. They do not replace runs, scrapes, beds and rubs. But a novice hunter certainly does not have to devote as much time to picking a location with the aid of several cams.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Belo

[Doc]

I would agree with you... however i believe something like that takes YEARS of practice failure before you get good at it, as a newb hunter i am NOT interested in spendig the first 5 or 10 yrs of my hunting seasons without getting a deer cause im not "good enough" yet.... thats why technology is so helpful... ESP for young/new hunters like me...  Dont get me wrong i would LOVE to be able to but how many on this sight can honestly say that they consistently do that?

 

Yes i is all up to the personal taste of each hunter...

Lol ..... It took me 7 years to get my first deer back in my recurve years. I've got to tell you that almost every bowhunter that I knew at the time (all 4 of them) didn't do even that good. However, that first deer was such a great trophy, that you cannot believe the overwhelming satisfaction and sense of accomplishment that was involved in that harvest. I also will say that I never really became frustrated or entertained any thoughts of giving up because all of us bowhunters were in the same boat. There weren't a whole lot of deer around back in those days, and sometimes "almost" getting a shot was the highlighted story at work on Monday morning. So yes, the equipment and the short seasons and the low deer populations made bow hunting a very skilled activity that required a whole lot of work, dedication and unfilled tags. But that was the challenge of bowhunting, and that's what made it different from gun hunting and we all accepted those challenges and understood that harvesting a deer (we called it killing back then .... lol) was likely to be a very rare event. But when you did connect, what a feeling and having success with a bow was recognized  as a demonstration of extreme hunting skills.

 

But I do understand  what you are saying. Today, success is expected. And if you do tell someone that you got a deer, the first thing out of their mouth is, "What did it score?". And if you come back with, "Well it was only a doe", forget the conversation continuing. Nobody wants to hear about that .... lol. Expectations today are a whole lot different than they were years ago, and almost forces people to use whatever aids and technology that they can get their hands on just to keep up with those expectations of today. So, I never said that I don't understand this evolution toward using technology to bolster our skills. Hell, I have succumbed to it myself. One look at the 11 very expensive bows on my rack downstairs will attest to that. Also the drawers full of techno-junk in my shop show that I too chased the "perfect weapon" and "fool-proof equipment" as it all came out....lol. I do understand it, and I am merely commenting on the existence of a pattern that has taken over bowhunting. I am also wondering if there will ever be an end to it all, or wondering what bow season will look like a decade or two down the road with this ever-increasing quest for hunting solutions through technology. And of course I am always interested in whether anybody even cares about such things anymore. It's kind of an interesting subject, I think.

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

crossbows.

 

but on a serious note, the electronics aid, but do not always land the deer. I know plenty of hunters who invest thousands and never shoot a nice deer. And vis versa.

 

Had to go there didnt you lmao

[Witty]

I hunted for two or three years before I got my first deer with my bow. It was a total fluke but is still my favorite hunt. Windy day, still hunting through some old pines on state land and happen to have a doe and two yearlings run in front of me and stop at 10 yards. Pulled back the string, took one step to my right and put an arrow right through both lungs. She dropped 20 or so yards from that spot. As I gave her 20 or so minutes I had 3 different bucks come in to check her out. What I've learned in the previous 5 years is technology is great but is overrated when it comes to hunting. I do shoot a newer Mathews, I do run trail cams, I use google maps but none of that matters if I can't see, touch and feel what's going on in the woods. In the field scouting has shown me much more about what deer do and why they do it. I have high hopes for this season, I've put more time and energy I to scouting and practicing with my weapon of choice then ever before. Technology can't replace woodsmanship no matter how fast or how hard you fling arrows.

[Five Seasons]

Lol ..... It took me 7 years to get my first deer back in my recurve years. I've got to tell you that almost every bowhunter that I knew at the time (all 4 of them) didn't do even that good. However, that first deer was such a great trophy, that you cannot believe the overwhelming satisfaction and sense of accomplishment that was involved in that harvest. I also will say that I never really became frustrated or entertained any thoughts of giving up because all of us bowhunters were in the same boat. There weren't a whole lot of deer around back in those days, and sometimes "almost" getting a shot was the highlighted story at work on Monday morning. So yes, the equipment and the short seasons and the low deer populations made bow hunting a very skilled activity that required a whole lot of work, dedication and unfilled tags. But that was the challenge of bowhunting, and that's what made it different from gun hunting and we all accepted those challenges and understood that harvesting a deer (we called it killing back then .... lol) was likely to be a very rare event. But when you did connect, what a feeling and having success with a bow was recognized  as a demonstration of extreme hunting skills.

 

But I do understand  what you are saying. Today, success is expected. And if you do tell someone that you got a deer, the first thing out of their mouth is, "What did it score?". And if you come back with, "Well it was only a doe", forget the conversation continuing. Nobody wants to hear about that .... lol. Expectations today are a whole lot different than they were years ago, and almost forces people to use whatever aids and technology that they can get their hands on just to keep up with those expectations of today. So, I never said that I don't understand this evolution toward using technology to bolster our skills. Hell, I have succumbed to it myself. One look at the 11 very expensive bows on my rack downstairs will attest to that. Also the drawers full of techno-junk in my shop show that I too chased the "perfect weapon" and "fool-proof equipment" as it all came out....lol. I do understand it, and I am merely commenting on the existence of a pattern that has taken over bowhunting. I am also wondering if there will ever be an end to it all, or wondering what bow season will look like a decade or two down the road with this ever-increasing quest for hunting solutions through technology. And of course I am always interested in whether anybody even cares about such things anymore. It's kind of an interesting subject, I think.

 

 

my analogy has always been commercial vs sport fishing. If all we wanted was to catch the biggest and the most fish, we'd all use nets. But we enjoy the experience, the water, the sun the story and the fight with the fish, so we dont. Archery and hunting in general have always been that for me. I'm glad baiting and spotlighting is illegal here in NY. I don't hunt to kill, I hunt as a sport. The reward is the nice buck, or even a doe that fills my freezer and gives me a story to tell for many years to come. Every deer I've shot has left me with knowledge and a new experience.

[Doewhacker]

Spotlighting isn't illegal unless you break the rules of spotlighting when doing so.

[phade]

I'm going to be honest here, my experience differs slightly from Belo.

 

Some of my kills start to disappear from memory. Many blend together now. I most certainly remember the buck kills clearly, but doe kills have all started to mesh into one big blur unless something completely unique occurred.

 

 

[Doewhacker]

 

I'm going to be honest here, my experience differs slightly from Belo.

 

Some of my kills start to disappear from memory. Many blend together now. I most certainly remember the buck kills clearly, but doe kills have all started to mesh into one big blur unless something completely unique occurred.

Same here, couldn't tell you a total either. Not that its that many (maybe 24-30) but just I can't remember.

[BizCT]

I remember every buck I shoot. I stopped shooting does about 10 years ago, when I was able to start shooting bucks.

[moog5050]

I'm going to be honest here, my experience differs slightly from Belo.

 

Some of my kills start to disappear from memory. Many blend together now. I most certainly remember the buck kills clearly, but doe kills have all started to mesh into one big blur unless something completely unique occurred.

 

 

BUT they still left you with knowledge and a new experience - whether you remember the kill or not.  Horrible to lose your memory at such a young age Phade.  Dont forget the sprayer on Sunday.  I will text you.

[phade]

BUT they still left you with knowledge and a new experience - whether you remember the kill or not.  Horrible to lose your memory at such a young age Phade.  Dont forget the sprayer on Sunday.  I will text you.

 

No doubt. The most difficult kill I ever had was an old Alpha doe. She busted me more than I care to admit. When I finally got her at 15 yards, it took me three shots to connect with her because I was too nervous. The rest very readily helped me in the shot process. Every once in a while I get wobblying knees....it's my buck fever. Mentally I am ok, but my knees shake uncontrollably. Doe kills really helped temper that, even the non-memorable ones. I know I am over 40 bow doe kills and probably over 60...land of plenty where I hunted, but not many mature bucks. I went several (5-6) years in a row filling every single doe tag I had including consigned and second draw. Land of plenty and I had to get through that blood thirst stage. Thankfully that meat helped several elderly people and people who needed lean meat.

[Danny]

I will still shoot a nice doe every opportunity i get, they taste much better and i enjoy eating what i harvest, which is why i would never hunt wolves, lions, bobcats ect... as i have no desire to try eating them