Possible Reasons for a Bad Gun Season?

[Curmudgeon]

I have good habitat. I work at it.  I consider the whole place a food plot.

[Doc]

Food and rut are what establishes deer patterns. Any changes in food sources have ripple effects in where the deer go and when.

[nyantler]

I hear this alot in my area but it is a joke. We're in heavy ag. Worrying about a 1 or 2 acre plot is for naught. (not alot of people dedicate larger destination plots around here to deer - because most let the farmer lease it and still help the deer out).

 

Other areas of the state where ag is missing, maybe a minor factor, but studies show food plots are merely a blip on the radar for a deer's diet. I forget the exact % (its miniscule) but the data shows that most people overplay the amount of food deer consume via food plots.

 

I'm sure you're right about pulling deer completely off of one property for another... I was talking about travel patterns... I would bet that patterns change at the slightest addition or elimination of a food source... just like humans might be able to be patterned from the couch to the frig pretty regularly... but if I put a jar of cookies in the basement... I'm sure the trail to the basement would become a new place of heavy travel... animals aren't much different.

 

A simple pattern change could detour the deer right away from ones treestand

Edited December 10, 2014 by nyantler

[wolc123]

I saw fewer deer this year than any of the last of the last 32 that I hunted.  Fortunately, I was able to capitalize on 2 of 3 bucks that got within range, and both of those were a stretch (60 yard with crossbow - measured, 300 yard with rifle - approximate).   That resulted in roughly 400 pounds of field-dressed whitetail total which was my second best to date.   I still have three doe tags, but to this point, from the start of the Southern zone x-bow season, I have only seen a couple and well out of range.   I would prefer to shoot does and fawns, but my family relies heavily on the venison so I take what I can get.  I am thankful to have passed up a spindly little 4-point with the shotgun at home, as that allowed me to take a heavy, old 8-point a few days later up in the mountains.

 

When I gutted that Adirondack 8-point, I saw the answer to the question of this thread.   The belly was stuffed with acorns like I have never seen.  Most were not even chewed (the old boys teeth were probably too wore down for that).  I believe we are seeing a record acorn crop across NY state this year.  Since that favorite food is so abundant, there is no need for deer to travel far during the daylight, putting themselves at risk.  

 

An odd thing is that the big ones seem to be falling in larger numbers, but the 1-1/2 year buck, doe, and fawn numbers are way down.  Our local taxidermist has almost double what he had last year, while the local butcher has about half.   I doubt we will see acorns like this again for a while, so next year should be real good, and I would not be surprised to see a record harvest in the state.  It looks like we are getting another mild winter so most of those that survived this season should still be around. 

 

I saw more crop damage on my farm in the Southern zone this year than I ever did (the acorns were not ripe in time to save the sweet-corn and pumpkins), so I know that the deer numbers are high.  They have no reason to come out in the daylight now with their acorn-stuffed bellies.   With the extremely low doe kill we had this gun season, I am not going to bother planting any pumpkins or sweet-corn next year.  Instead, I will put in a little more field-corn, soybeans, clover, and brassicas.                

[gjs4]

I believe 5 and 6 would be the biggest problem in your area. The yote thing will kill your deer hunting for sure but if there were to many you would not be seeing small deer thats for sure. We had great numbers on our land in 6G,8M and 8H. There are so many things that can effect numbers and by having enough land to do your management, Not Ny states management hels big time.

I will also say that i drive between Watertown and Mt Morris about every Fri-Sun and i have never seen so many dead deer on the Thruway and #390.

1.Ny's piss poor Mgmt

2 Ny's to long of gun season

3 Ny's failure to have 1 buck a year

4 Ny's failure to have deer harvest check in.

5 Ny failure to have unused tag mail back in.

The above plus routine lawlessness- false tagging, poaching, drivers on posted ground ..... Just wait until we have the early ml season next year in the same areas that pounded by that snow storm. Rifle will expand to a couple more counties to boot.

The dec manages license sales- the rest is irrelevant.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gmil6184]

I must admit I heard far fewer shots than normal this opening weekend. Although I personally had a very successful gun season. I only saw a handful of bucks and the 5 point I did shoot might not have been considered a "shooter" by some (and that's OK) but all in all I would rate this year above average.

[phade]

I'm sure you're right about pulling deer completely off of one property for another... I was talking about travel patterns... I would bet that patterns change at the slightest addition or elimination of a food source... just like humans might be able to be patterned from the couch to the frig pretty regularly... but if I put a jar of cookies in the basement... I'm sure the trail to the basement would become a new place of heavy travel... animals aren't much different.

 

A simple pattern change could detour the deer right away from ones treestand

 

I completely agree.

 

I guess my thought process is that it would wash out...a deer usually walks by hunter 1 but not hunter 2, then food plot draws, and deer goes by hunter 2 and not hunter 1. In either case, a hunter still sees one deer.

[philoshop]

Phade, the cookie jar analogy is perfect as far as trying to pattern deer. LOL

[Trial153]

                                                                                                                                                                                      

1.Ny's piss poor Mgmt

2 Ny's to long of gun season

3 Ny's failure to have 1 buck a year

4 Ny's failure to have deer harvest check in.

5 Ny failure to have unused tag mail back in.

This guy has it right......till these thing change NY will never with the amount of hunting pressure it receives amount to anything worth while. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

This guy has it right......till these thing change NY will never with the amount of hunting pressure it receives amount to anything worth while. 

where are you guys hunting that you see all this pressure?

[turkeyfeathers]

Number 1 reason :

NYS DEC released mountain lions got all the deer

 

end thread/

[Trial153]

where are you guys hunting that you see all this pressure?

Pretty much anywhere east of 81 and south of I 90....

[Doc]

where are you guys hunting that you see all this pressure?

I have to say that the pressure during gun season is nothing compared to years ago.......especially after opening weekend. Things get real quiet. And yet the damage is done. The deer are totally spooked and into super survival mode, And there are just enough guys around to keep reminding them of those two ugly opening days ..... lol.

 

One change that I have noticed since we went to Saturday openers is that now we do have two big opening days (Saturday & Sunday) compared to only one biggie when we had only the Monday opener.

 

The time when I have seen the greatest increase in pressure in recent years is the one time when you want it the least .... Bow season.

[nyantler]

I completely agree.

 

I guess my thought process is that it would wash out...a deer usually walks by hunter 1 but not hunter 2, then food plot draws, and deer goes by hunter 2 and not hunter 1. In either case, a hunter still sees one deer.

 

A guy like you that has a bit more knowledge of food plots and stand placements on managed property probably won't notice much difference in small pattern changes... the weekend warrior that has only one stand on 25 acres might notice much more... and between you and me (shhh), the guys complaining about not seeing deer ( that we all know are there) are the latter.

 

and for those that don't believe the deer are there... just take a walk around your property a day after a new snow...

[Doc]

and for those that don't believe the deer are there... just take a walk around your property a day after a new snow...

You know, this is a valuable time of the year. The deer are still in their super survival mode, and we have a written record of deer escape tactics documented in the snow. It's a great time to be out there learning and taking notes for the next gun season.

 

Ha-ha .... This comment is completely off topic, and has nothing to do with "reasons for a bad gun season", but maybe if more people used this time of year for some intensive scouting, there wouldn't be quite so many bad seasons to find reasons for.

[nyantler]

... but maybe if more people used this time of year for some intensive scouting, there wouldn't be quite so many bad seasons to find reasons for.

 

I knew at least you would know what I was getting at... for me, tracking deer in the snow has been the best whitetail education available. if one is going to be successful at taking deer... it pays to know what they're really doing... and not just guessing all the time.

[stubby68]

nantler I have taken a walk around the property before during and after a snow. Guess very few if any sign. Has been this way for about 8 years each year worse then the last. I am not talking about just a couple acres. I have covered a lot of ground 400 acres in one spot and 90 in another just a couple of examples. There are others. These areas are low pressure as well. I have heard very few shots this season and for the last few. We do not have a dog problem either. I am not saying some areas do not have lots of deer however there many which have very few. Contrary to popular believe.

I have cams out year round and I am in woods once or twice a month. low number of pics and little deer sign. Has nothing to do with how one hunts if the game is not there. Few tracks little scat and few sightings means few deer. Not just me or mine not seeing the deer listen to others in area and get same story. I do not need easy hunting just would like to have something to hunt. Sucks when you have to leave your own area to get deer when you have plenty of your own land that use to have lots of deer.

To say we all know the deer are there is not accurate. I would for that to be true but it just isnt.

[A Sportsman]

For what its worth, where I hunt in central catskills the hunting was much more difficult than the past several years.  I could tell by the significantly less deer tracks seen in my spot.  My spot is huge and covers 3 different large mountains with elevations over 3000 feet.  I fully understand what nyantler and phade are saying regarding the idea that "not getting it done" is more often on the hunter than the deer herd.  And I mostly agree with them.  But I would caution that it doesnt hold true at all times and for all places.  Where I hunt the hunting is normally difficult (not many deer as compared to elsewhere).  But sometimes it can be noticeably more difficult for periods of time (years).  There is nothing in my area that would ruin or change the hunting other than a poor mast crop, a couple of nasty winters and a coyote population. Or a combination of the three. No agriculture, food plots, poachers, or whatever.  After 7 days climbing all over the mountains, I know without a doubt based on sign and sightings that the population is down.  Hence that could be the reason for a guy having a lousy gun season. 

 

All that aside, my group of 5 did pretty well.  In 7 full days of hunting, 3 guys shot bucks and one guy wounded one.  I unfortunately was the chump who wounded one. Easy shot that I blew and I'm still sick over it. But We worked as hard as ever this year and probably owe our success to knowledge coming from years of hunting those mountains and some pretty darn good still hunting conditions that we had for opening week. 

[nyantler]

nantler I have taken a walk around the property before during and after a snow. Guess very few if any sign. Has been this way for about 8 years each year worse then the last. I am not talking about just a couple acres. I have covered a lot of ground 400 acres in one spot and 90 in another just a couple of examples. There are others. These areas are low pressure as well. I have heard very few shots this season and for the last few. We do not have a dog problem either. I am not saying some areas do not have lots of deer however there many which have very few. Contrary to popular believe.

I have cams out year round and I am in woods once or twice a month. low number of pics and little deer sign. Has nothing to do with how one hunts if the game is not there. Few tracks little scat and few sightings means few deer. Not just me or mine not seeing the deer listen to others in area and get same story. I do not need easy hunting just would like to have something to hunt. Sucks when you have to leave your own area to get deer when you have plenty of your own land that use to have lots of deer.

To say we all know the deer are there is not accurate. I would for that to be true but it just isnt.

Deer "density" will vary depending on where your property is... 400 acres of land in one area will be different than 400 somewhere else... a better question would be why would anyone continue to hunt a piece of land for 8 years if there are no deer there? Sorry but you just have a bad spot to deer hunt... not knowing where and what kind of property you have its hard to know what you're dealing with that keeps deer from there for 8 years... here we're talking about pieces that have gone from lots of deer sightings early to fewer deer sighting later in the season or from one year to the next.. not pieces that have never had many deer... your piece is just a piece that deer don't seem to like for some reason.

[nyantler]

For what its worth, where I hunt in central catskills the hunting was much more difficult than the past several years.  I could tell by the significantly less deer tracks seen in my spot.  My spot is huge and covers 3 different large mountains with elevations over 3000 feet.  I fully understand what nyantler and phade are saying regarding the idea that "not getting it done" is more often on the hunter than the deer herd.  And I mostly agree with them.  But I would caution that it doesnt hold true at all times and for all places.  Where I hunt the hunting is normally difficult (not many deer as compared to elsewhere).  But sometimes it can be noticeably more difficult for periods of time (years).  There is nothing in my area that would ruin or change the hunting other than a poor mast crop, a couple of nasty winters and a coyote population. Or a combination of the three. No agriculture, food plots, poachers, or whatever.  After 7 days climbing all over the mountains, I know without a doubt based on sign and sightings that the population is down.  Hence that could be the reason for a guy having a lousy gun season. 

 

All that aside, my group of 5 did pretty well.  In 7 full days of hunting, 3 guys shot bucks and one guy wounded one.  I unfortunately was the chump who wounded one. Easy shot that I blew and I'm still sick over it. But We worked as hard as ever this year and probably owe our success to knowledge coming from years of hunting those mountains and some pretty darn good still hunting conditions that we had for opening week. 

 

The Catskills can be, in some ways, similar to the ADK's... deer density is lower... seeing and killing deer becomes almost entirely based on the ability of the hunter... there are deer there and big deer... it's just going to be much harder to kill one... mountainous areas won't keep as many deer as the winter takes over the landscape... they will move on to yarding areas or places with better food sources... this is also true for most of the vast non-agricultural areas of NY... true in the Tug Hill region as well... lots of deer early season very few late season... if you're still hunting those areas late season expecting to see deer around every corner then you would be proving my point that not seeing deer is usually on the hunter.

 

Hunters not knowing how whitetails act or travel given different situations and landscapes is not a deer problem it's a hunter problem... you will never hear an ADK tracker talk about the lack of deer density keeping them from killing a big buck... their knowledge of big woods deer is what makes them successful in one of the lowest deer density areas in NY. Lack of sightings in generally high deer density areas is definitely on the hunter.

Edited December 12, 2014 by nyantler

[Culvercreek hunt club]

nantler I have taken a walk around the property before during and after a snow. Guess very few if any sign. Has been this way for about 8 years each year worse then the last. I am not talking about just a couple acres. I have covered a lot of ground 400 acres in one spot and 90 in another just a couple of examples. There are others. These areas are low pressure as well. I have heard very few shots this season and for the last few. We do not have a dog problem either. I am not saying some areas do not have lots of deer however there many which have very few. Contrary to popular believe.

I have cams out year round and I am in woods once or twice a month. low number of pics and little deer sign. Has nothing to do with how one hunts if the game is not there. Few tracks little scat and few sightings means few deer. Not just me or mine not seeing the deer listen to others in area and get same story. I do not need easy hunting just would like to have something to hunt. Sucks when you have to leave your own area to get deer when you have plenty of your own land that use to have lots of deer.

To say we all know the deer are there is not accurate. I would for that to be true but it just isnt.

Stubby, Is this your land? Can you identify what may have changed? Has the property gone to a mature hardwood forest with few mast species? Maybe some habitat improvement is in order. If you build it, they will come.

[Doc]

Deer "density" will vary depending on where your property is... 400 acres of land in one area will be different than 400 somewhere else... a better question would be why would anyone continue to hunt a piece of land for 8 years if there are no deer there? Sorry but you just have a bad spot to deer hunt... not knowing where and what kind of property you have its hard to know what you're dealing with that keeps deer from there for 8 years... here we're talking about pieces that have gone from lots of deer sightings early to fewer deer sighting later in the season or from one year to the next.. not pieces that have never had many deer... your piece is just a piece that deer don't seem to like for some reason.

There is something that is happening across the state that I think not everyone stops to think about. Since the 40s and 50s, agriculture has contracted onto the more productive and larger and flatter properties. A lot of the more marginal land has not been farmed for decades. The small family farms are nearly gone, and a ton of land has been abandoned as farm land returns to mature woods and an out-of-reach over-story develops. At first these abandoned farm lands were great for the deer population explosion, as the transitional lands provided some of the hottest browse and cover that you could ever want. I began hunting right at the perfect point of that evolution of the lands into ideal deer hunting lands. Nice open fields with brush-lots scattered around offered perfect food and cover. Well it's been a bunch of years since all of that great hunting and the perfect habitat, and fields are disappearing and turning to mature woods. For me the number is about 55 years of actual deer hunting, so I have seen lots of changes. So when I look back decades and recall the deer activity, I have to note that things have definitely tightened up considerably. Sometimes it kind of freaks me out a bit when I stop in the middle of a group of young trees on top of my hill and recall how that used to be a large wide open field where you could look from one end to the other .... lol.

 

Another important change is that I have found that I have had to revise tactics completely from those that I used back in the glory days to a style of hunting suitable for the spread-out, more random patterns of mature woods. So there is an evolution of habitat that changes what we should be expecting to see and our hunting techniques have to reflect that. There's still a pile of deer around but throughout my hunting life, there has been a gradual unstable downward trend, and had I not been flexible in my tactics, things would appear to be pretty bleak out there. So the perception of good and bad seasons have to be set in the right perspective along with the background of those making those assessments.

 

 

[Stagger Lee]

Just an opinion but where I am it seems the deer have turned mainly nocturnal as the season progressed. I have a small piece of property that I own and hunt. I got two deer early season and have seen few since in woods or on cam in daylight hours. I attribute this to the early season pressure on them. I wish the answer was as simple as some claim to just go where the deer have moved, but I will not trespass or hunt public land as my foremost concern is safety. I have enough on my plate just keeping idiots off my piece.

[wooly]

I know we got pounded with snow opening week of season here in 9h and I don't think ANYONE was doing much if any hunting.

Guys that only had that week to hunt probably got screwed by the weather unless they took advantage of a nice opening day here or had time to spare later in the season.

Talking to the local processor earlier in the week and he said #'s were almost half of what he usually see's from around 400 down to only 170 something.

 

[nyantler]

There is something that is happening across the state that I think not everyone stops to think about. Since the 40s and 50s, agriculture has contracted onto the more productive and larger and flatter properties. A lot of the more marginal land has not been farmed for decades. The small family farms are nearly gone, and a ton of land has been abandoned as farm land returns to mature woods and an out-of-reach over-story develops. At first these abandoned farm lands were great for the deer population explosion, as the transitional lands provided some of the hottest browse and cover that you could ever want. I began hunting right at the perfect point of that evolution of the lands into ideal deer hunting lands. Nice open fields with brush-lots scattered around offered perfect food and cover. Well it's been a bunch of years since all of that great hunting and the perfect habitat, and fields are disappearing and turning to mature woods. For me the number is about 55 years of actual deer hunting, so I have seen lots of changes. So when I look back decades and recall the deer activity, I have to note that things have definitely tightened up considerably. Sometimes it kind of freaks me out a bit when I stop in the middle of a group of young trees on top of my hill and recall how that used to be a large wide open field where you could look from one end to the other .... lol.

 

Another important change is that I have found that I have had to revise tactics completely from those that I used back in the glory days to a style of hunting suitable for the spread-out, more random patterns of mature woods. So there is an evolution of habitat that changes what we should be expecting to see and our hunting techniques have to reflect that. There's still a pile of deer around but throughout my hunting life, there has been a gradual unstable downward trend, and had I not been flexible in my tactics, things would appear to be pretty bleak out there. So the perception of good and bad seasons have to be set in the right perspective along with the background of those making those assessments.

 

Hunters need to realize that being flexible is a key element to successful deer hunting... sometimes even thinking outside the box a bit.. we need to remember that deer do not have a manual... they are always in survival mode 365 days a year... their activity can change in a heartbeat to something that doesn't even resemble normal deer activity... they are highly adaptable, which means hunters need to adapt as well... those that learn to be flexible early in their hunting life usually don't complain much about seeing or killing deer... habitat change is inevitable... which means what deer do in that habitat will change as well... most older hunters know that because they have seen it happen... younger guys.. not so much...

 

I think the transition in hunting towards sitting instead of moving will make those slight changes in deer patterns more noticeable... it is much easier for a deer to pattern a stationary hunter than a moving hunter.