Looks like there may just be statewide Antler Restricts.

[Skillet]

I don't know why high fence is coming into this thread. There's a huge difference between shooting "a freak buck in a pen" & hunting on a well run preserve.  A good preserve can be a very challenging & fulfilling hunt. I'm speaking from experience, & before I'm accused of not being a real hunter, yes I'm very capable of taking deer in the wild. I've hunted animals on a preserve that do not even exist in the wild anymore, & the main reason they exist AT ALL, is because of the hunting preserve industry. I'll congratulate any hunter on any animal that they take, regardless of high fence or not. You might not agree with 4season's views, but I don't see the need to bash his business that you know nothing about. 

[phade]

I am a big proponent of online surveys. Once the software is written, it takes the cost of labor right out of the data-gathering game. Input is ones and zeros. Receipt of data is ones and zeros. even the bulk of analysis is ones and zeros. And with computers everywhere these days, voluntary participation eliminates every excuse  relating to lack of involvement. Oh and by the way, demographics, regions, and whatever volumes of supporting data can be supplied at the click of a button. Personal computers were made for public data gathering. I have no idea why the DEC or Cornell or anyone who is serious about getting the real picture is not using them. It is absolutely weird that in 2015, we are still using the U.S. Postal Service for labor intensive data gathering that necessitates questionable numbers of data points.

 

Let me pose this question: Do you honestly believe Cornell doesn't have a clear, scientifically accepted reason as to why it runs the survey the way it does?

 

Let me also pose, what can you show that Cornell's methods necessitates questionable numbers of data points?

 

It's like people know everything about everything.

 

"Hey, Mr. Ivy League world-class statistician, you are doing it wrong."

             "What am I doing wrong?"

"You have questionable methodology on everything you do."

             "Ok, how do you know this?"

"I slept at a Holiday Inn last night."

 

It's certainly not blind trust, and that dose of slepticism is fine, but there should be reasonable confidence that a world class instituion can do a job right on something such as this.  

[steve863]

I don't know why high fence is coming into this thread. There's a huge difference between shooting "a freak buck in a pen" & hunting on a well run preserve.  A good preserve can be a very challenging & fulfilling hunt. I'm speaking from experience, & before I'm accused of not being a real hunter, yes I'm very capable of taking deer in the wild. I've hunted animals on a preserve that do not even exist in the wild anymore, & the main reason they exist AT ALL, is because of the hunting preserve industry. I'll congratulate any hunter on any animal that they take, regardless of high fence or not. You might not agree with 4season's views, but I don't see the need to bash his business that you know nothing about. 

 

 

I sure as hell didn't bring it up.  Go back to my first post and see who was the first to bring up deer farms and high fence!!   I'll give you ONE guess.  LOL

[Five Seasons]

What they want is an easy fix ... one that just won't work IMO...

 

read the pdf that was posted. They clearly understand the complications and issues and there is nothing easy about it. They recognize that in their release.

 

I'm shocked at how many guys here are willing to say that I shouldn't be allowed to shoot what I want.

 

I'm shocked that some of you don't realize the DEC has ALWAYS told you what you can shoot. Regulations on time of day and year. Regulations on what and how many. I do know what your point is, but the argument that "nobody is going to tell me what I can shoot" is just down right ludicrous. You are already told how many doe, bucks, turkey etc you can shoot and even what you can shoot it with. ARs are just another reg.

 

So really what I'm asking is that you rephrase your protest.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Let me pose this question: Do you honestly believe Cornell doesn't have a clear, scientifically accepted reason as to why it runs the survey the way it does?

 

Let me also pose, what can you show that Cornell's methods necessitates questionable numbers of data points?

 

It's like people know everything about everything.

 

"Hey, Mr. Ivy League world-class statistician, you are doing it wrong."

             "What am I doing wrong?"

"You have questionable methodology on everything you do."

             "Ok, how do you know this?"

"I slept at a Holiday Inn last night."

 

It's certainly not blind trust, and that dose of slepticism is fine, but there should be reasonable confidence that a world class instituion can do a job right on something such as this.  

Bottom line is a large section of the hunting public don't believe the Govt has their interest or the interest of the wildlife at heart. They carry that over to changes in policy and regulations and having a "they are great, do it all the time and just trust their conclusions" doesn't foster trust or acceptance. Perception is everything and all of NY Govt and agencies are perceived as underhanded and back room.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Yah, you were the one who started the thread and just happened to mention how great things would be if NY became a big buck state.  LOL

Sure did and always will...Had nothing to do with a fence or pen!

[Five Seasons]

Hunters have ruined access to land. Not trophy hunters paying leases either. It was the few slobs that were disrespectful to land and landowners. More land has been Posted and closed to access due to this than any other reason. Example: A big farm down the road with several thousand acres leased their land out a couple of years ago because they were sick of dealing with slobs and they wanted to control who was on it.

 

spot on. small numbers ruin it for the majority. It's not just the litter bugs. It's the poachers, those that shoot near houses, those that park in spots they shouldn't. They turn landowners off.

 

I'm happy for you Sam, you certainly kill some brutes.  Not many others seem to, do they?  How come so few of these great big bucks caught on camera each year don't end up hanging in a shed somewhere, then get a place on the family room wall? 

 

Every year we all get so fired up seeing the trail cam pics and videos of dream bucks then never see them again, dead or alive. 

 

If we had AR's we'd all kill them.

 

 

I think some are missing what ARs are meant to do. They're not meant to put a trophy in everyones barn. Those deer are hard to kill. That's why it's so awesome when you do take one. I for one, do not want it to be easy.

 

ARs are meant to reduce the yearling buck harvest. I don't know of a state that has ARs limiting the taking of a 2.5. So if ARs will increase my chances of seeing more 2.5's and less scrub bucks than I'm for them. I'm not against the hunter who takes the big 6 or the decent 8. Those are nice deer for 98% of us. I'm not against the youth taking the fork horn. Those are great pics and trophys in their own right. I do cringe a little at experienced hunters taking a fork in Wayne county when the doe are overpopulated.

 

In turn, with ARs I'll probably see an increase in mature deer as well. But it's not going to be something noticeable. They wont just start showing up. But there will be more and I'm for that.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Belo

[phade]

Bottom line is a large section of the hunting public don't believe the Govt has their interest or the interest of the wildlife at heart. They carry that over to changes in policy and regulations and having a "they are great, do it all the time and just trust their conclusions" doesn't foster trust or acceptance. Perception is everything and all of NY Govt and agencies are perceived as underhanded and back room.

 

And hiring Cornell doesn't bring any level of credibility to this process? Maybe, and I'm speaking on a guess (I have no idea), they actually want Cornell to do this to bring some credibility to the process? I suspect the same section of hunting public wouldn't kick their Cornell educated surgeon out of the operating room, or would plant their apples or grapes designed there, or stand inside a Cornell engineer's building.

 

Hunters have proven they're one of the most disfunctional communities of people with a commonality in America. It's not just the government they can't get along with or trust. QDMA, Deer farmer groups, NYBH, NYSCC and so on and so forth.

 

What deer- or hunting based group (private, NFP, or public agency) has any sort of large-scale support from the hunting community at large? None. Well, maybe Catch A Dream, I guess. But, none that does anything with management of the resources.

 

So, where does that leave us? Wherever it is, it ain't good.

 

This thread is a sad commentary on the deer hunting community from all perspectives, mine included.

Edited January 8, 2015 by phade

[moog5050]

 I do cringe a little at experienced hunters taking a fork in Wayne county when the doe are overpopulated.

 

I guess this is where your opinion and mine differ Belo.  While I would prefer to hold out for an older buck too, I have no problem with someone shooting a spike (experienced or not).  Why cringe if they are happy with a spike or fork?  To justify that thought simply based on our own desires to see bigger deer seems pretty selfish.  I would love to see everyone pass 1.5s but only if they chose to do so and I am certainly not willing to support a law that imposes my preferences on another hunter.  Especially in light of the fact that DEC made clear ARs would only be considered to satisfy those hunters that want more mature deer opportunities.  IF DEC is correct, it has nothing to do with management for the health of the herd.  Heck, even you say you don't want it easy to kill an old one, but it sounds like you want it easier to some extent. 

 

Leave people to choose.  Just my humble opinion - which is never ever ever wrong.  Ask my wife.  lol

Edited January 8, 2015 by moog5050

[Five Seasons]

I don't know why high fence is coming into this thread.

 

he manages to bring it into every thread. I stay out of the convos, but frankly it's getting old. Ok you're a deer farmer. Great we all know it. Lets talk about deer hunting. I don't care about your farm and it derails half the threads on this forum.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And hiring Cornell doesn't bring any level of credibility to this process? Maybe, and I'm speaking on a guess (I have no idea), they actually want Cornell to do this to bring some credibility to the process? I suspect the same section of hunting public wouldn't kick their Cornell educated surgeon out of the operating room, or would plant their apples or grapes designed there, or stand inside a Cornell engineer's building.

 

Hunters have proven they're one of the most disfunctional communities of people with a commonality in America. It's not just the government they can't get along with or trust. QDMA, Deer farmer groups, NYBH, NYSCC and so on and so forth.

 

What deer- or hunting based group (private, NFP, or public agency) has any sort of large-scale support from the hunting community at large? None. Well, maybe Catch A Dream, I guess. But, none that does anything with management of the resources.

 

So, where does that leave us? Wherever it is, it ain't good.

 

This thread is a sad commentary on the deer hunting community from all perspectives, mine included.

I agree, as a whole we seem to be a group that is never satisfied.

[Lawdwaz]

 

I think some are missing what ARs are meant to do. They're not meant to put a trophy in everyones barn. Those deer are hard to kill. That's why it's so awesome when you do take one. I for one, do not want it to be easy.

 

ARs are meant to reduce the yearling buck harvest. I don't know of a state that has ARs limiting the taking of a 2.5. So if ARs will increase my chances of seeing more 2.5's and less scrub bucks than I'm for them. I'm not against the hunter who takes the big 6 or the decent 8. Those are nice deer for 98% of us. I'm not against the youth taking the fork horn. Those are great pics and trophys in their own right. I do cringe a little at experienced hunters taking a fork in Wayne county when the doe are overpopulated.

 

In turn, with ARs I'll probably see an increase in mature deer as well. But it's not going to be something noticeable. They wont just start showing up. But there will be more and I'm for that.

 

Sure you'll see an increase of mature deer.  Your camera's will be loaded with more bucks that you probably won't kill.  

 

What you will also see is a reduction of the overall deer herd.  Remember what I said earlier, you will absolutely see a lowering of deer herd numbers with AR's or OBR.  More antlerless deer will be killed; adult doe, doe fawn and buck fawn.  Each adult doe killed is equal to 2-3 deer for next year.

 

The State wants to see the herds reduced, no disputing that right? 

 

Do you want to see less deer in your area in the hopes of shooting a more mature (I won't call it a trophy buck) buck?  That's what you'll get.  Just check with the guys in Pennsylvania.....................

[Four Season Whitetail's]

he manages to bring it into every thread. I stay out of the convos, but frankly it's getting old. Ok you're a deer farmer. Great we all know it. Lets talk about deer hunting. I don't care about your farm and it derails half the threads on this forum.

Now WTF are you talking about!   Do you want to go back and show me the first words in this thread about high fence or preserves. 

[Five Seasons]

I guess this is where your opinion and mine differ Belo.  While I would prefer to hold out for an older buck too, I have no problem with someone shooting a spike (experienced or not).  Why cringe if they are happy with a spike or fork?  To justify that thought simply based on our own desires to see bigger deer seems pretty selfish.  I would love to see everyone pass 1.5s but only if they chose to do so and I am certainly not willing to support a law that imposes my preferences on another hunter.  Especially in light of the fact that DEC made clear ARs would only be considered to satisfy those hunters that want more mature deer opportunities.  IF DEC is correct, it has nothing to do with management for the health of the herd.  Heck, even you say you don't want it easy to kill an old one, but it sounds like you want it easier to some extent. 

 

Leave people to choose.  Just my humble opinion - which is never ever ever wrong.  Ask my wife.  lol

 

I suppose it's like keeping my opinion to myself. You wont find a post on here where I gave someone a hard time for shooting a small buck. I have family members with rooms full of trophies that still shoot a basket 6. If they're family we do some ball busting but nothing serious. So cringing a little inside isn't really a big deal i dont think.

 

I guess it's tougher because most of what I see are my neighbors. My father is shooting only 3.5 or 4.5's. I'm trying for 2.5's or bigger and the neighbors shoot the yearlings. I'm not super pro-AR. I do respect their right to take the yearling I let walk all bow season. I guess I struggle with why. We have doe falling over themselves on our property so if they need meat they can get it.

 

An open ended question I guess. "if you've been hunting for 10 years or more and have shot some big bucks, WHY are you shooting the fork horn?" They're easy to kill but so are the doe. The horns are probably ending up on your barn wall and you don't get that from a doe. But really why do you shoot them instead of a mature or young doe?

 

Honest question. No strings attached.

[growalot]

 

I agree, as a whole we seem to be a group that is never satisfied.

 

Let me pose this question...Do any of you think that if they put their time ,efforts,and money into making plans to hammer the pre season/season poaching and the illegal "family & freinds" buck tagging to increase mature buck,  instead of the money they are throwing AR's, that do not protect 1 1/2 year olds...You'd find us happier as a group?....Sorry that ran so long...lol

Edited January 8, 2015 by growalot

[G-Man]

Here is the one thing I always hear about ar's they won't apply to youth.... well my question is what about the 34 year old new hunter who asked I teach her how to hunt? Or the father in law who wants to try it after his daughter got hooked and got her 1st buck at the age of 26,because she wanted to spend more time with her husband?

There are really a lot of "new hunters" that have a lot less experiance.hunting than my nephew who has been shooting woodchucks for 3 years and got his first turkey.. that is a big problem with ar's.

how about the older hunter who has always hunted State land and only gotten 3 buck in 20 years,and now has his own property and wants the chance a 4pt he's watched in his yard all year?

Rember though you may of had success and taken your buck or two every year many more hunters have not. Just because you have evolved to want or need a challah get of an older buck, many more have not and may never reach that point.

I wonder how many years hunting and bucks taken correlate to wanting or against ar's? That would make an interesting survey imo.

Edited January 8, 2015 by G-Man

[Culvercreek hunt club]

An open ended question I guess. "if you've been hunting for 10 years or more and have shot some big bucks, WHY are you shooting the fork horn?" They're easy to kill but so are the doe. The horns are probably ending up on your barn wall and you don't get that from a doe. But really why do you shoot them instead of a mature or young doe?

 

Honest question. No strings attached.

If you are in an area where you can get doe tags, I can't see a reason. If that buck tag is the only thing in your pocket and you aren't in prime area, pretty hard to say "don't" . Me and my hunting buddies have 9 deer in the freezer.. Not a horn in the bunch. We are lucky to have an area where you walk around with a pocket full of doe tags. I have hunted in parts of the state where it could be years before you see a horn.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

If you are in an area where you can get doe tags, I can't see a reason. If that buck tag is the only thing in your pocket and you aren't in prime area, pretty hard to say "don't" . Me and my hunting buddies have 9 deer in the freezer.. Not a horn in the bunch. We are lucky to have an area where you walk around with a pocket full of doe tags. I have hunted in parts of the state where it could be years before you see a horn.

Thats why if you read the words that they are going to break up the state. I am sure in areas of no does you will see no Ar. In areas like the 8.s you will see Ar and OBR.  If they want the bucks to get big and the does to die, Well there ya go. Look at Letchworth. Same deal. Bucks are great and getting bigger. Doe numbers are down. They wanted deer off the park and they got it. Win,Win...For Most!

[phade]

Let me pose this question...Do any of you think that if they put their time ,efforts,and money into making plans to hammer the pre season/season poaching and the illegal "family & freinds" buck tagging to increase mature buck,  instead of the money they are throwing AR's, that do not protect 1 1/2 year olds...You'd find us happier as a group?....Sorry that ran so long...lol

 

I don't think we as a group will ever be happy. That's my answer.

 

We can't identify what the future state should look like with any degree of confidence or large scale support because of US, the hunters. That's the lowest hole in the bucket. And water is continuing to pee out of it.

 

So no, we won't ever get there. We're never happy. We can't even agree on the research method to try to figure out what would make us happy to even design a future state, let alone the execution part of it down the road.

Edited January 8, 2015 by phade

[rj23nyr]

What's a mandatory deer check?

[Paula]

What's a mandatory deer check?[/quote

Checking in the deer that you tagged

Edited January 8, 2015 by Paula

[First-light]

I suppose it's like keeping my opinion to myself. You wont find a post on here where I gave someone a hard time for shooting a small buck. I have family members with rooms full of trophies that still shoot a basket 6. If they're family we do some ball busting but nothing serious. So cringing a little inside isn't really a big deal i dont think.

 

I guess it's tougher because most of what I see are my neighbors. My father is shooting only 3.5 or 4.5's. I'm trying for 2.5's or bigger and the neighbors shoot the yearlings. I'm not super pro-AR. I do respect their right to take the yearling I let walk all bow season. I guess I struggle with why. We have doe falling over themselves on our property so if they need meat they can get it.

 

An open ended question I guess. "if you've been hunting for 10 years or more and have shot some big bucks, WHY are you shooting the fork horn?" They're easy to kill but so are the doe. The horns are probably ending up on your barn wall and you don't get that from a doe. But really why do you shoot them instead of a mature or young doe?

 

Honest question. No strings attached.

I have shot some big bucks. My place is 6 hrs away from home. I have limited time hunting. If it is coming down to the end of the season and I have no venison in the freezer I will shoot a small buck. There have been times I see doe opening day then nothing for a number of hunts. I would rather shoot a doe but if a small buck comes along he is dead.

Limited time hunting + limited deer sightings + end of season = brown its down.

[growalot]

After having read what ppl are posting over the years I will disagree...I once thought these problems were a local thing...no, state wide ...country wide in reality...When you have some parts of the state doing a bang up effort in stemming these problems and others ...lets say.... being headed by different mind sets and management styles...Well then ppl out there experiencing these problems become less than trusting and confident in the DEC as a whole and their efforts..,. Fix what you see hunters and even non hunters are complaining about year in and year out first...then the trickle down just might find improvements in the very thing you want to manage in the first place. You may say simplistic won't happen...I say simplistic enough to work... at the very least put a dent in it.

[Jennifer]

An open ended question I guess. "if you've been hunting for 10 years or more and have shot some big bucks, WHY are you shooting the fork horn?" They're easy to kill but so are the doe. The horns are probably ending up on your barn wall and you don't get that from a doe. But really why do you shoot them instead of a mature or young doe?

 

Honest question. No strings attached.

 

My answer will probably not be the norm, but because doe tags are hard to get here, and I treasure the venison. If I had a doe tag, I'd prefer a large doe over a small buck.

 

Somewhat related but a bit off track:

There is an old, uneducated phenomenon around here. I don't know if it is state wide or if it's a local thing. Many older landowners (and some younger ones that have been taught this way) also specifically request absolutely no doe hunting. The farm almost next door actually has signs that say "NO DOE HUNTING". I don't hunt on these properties, I don't have permission-- but a small army of guys do. If they honor the landowner's request, then there are no does being shot off of large tracts of property here. (this makes sense as I regularly have 18-25 doe herded up in my back woods, over-browsing everything!) Is this a common thing, landowners forbidding doe hunting? Also an honest question.

[rj23nyr]

 Is this a common thing, landowners forbidding doe hunting? Also an honest question.

 

Yes.  It's an attitude that people have, not just landowners.  I think it's sort of the way we protect women and children.  I'm sure someone smarter than me can explain it better.