PA Deer Management

[Doc]

For those that are convinced that PA has the perfect deer management style compared to NYS, you might want to pick up the latest issue of New York Outdoor News and read the two articles on that subject. Page 6 talks about a 14% over-all drop in the harvest this year, with an 11% decrease in buck harvest.

 

And then on page 11 Oak Duke takes an even longer-range view on what's been happening to the deer population down there. He talks about the harvest changes of 1/2 million back in 2000-01 vs. 304,000 last year (40% drop in 15 years). In NYS such a record would have us ready to lynch someone.....lol.

 

It's some pretty interesting reading that paints quite a different picture from the usual story about how PA always gets it right on their deer management. Check it out. Sounds like trouble in paradise.

[nyantler]

Anyone that hunted in PA years ago remembers a State overrun with deer... very few bucks over 1.5 years old... buck:doe ratios of 30:1... etc. etc. Although I'm not so sure PA has such a great management system... the management change was much better for the deer than what was in place prior... which was management that benefited just the hunter. What some would call low harvest numbers or low deer numbers are probably just numbers getting closer to where they should be... but there might still be a lynching in PA...

[wildcat junkie]

304,000 is just about double what it was in the early '70s.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You can blame the DEC/DNR for their demise. Like was said, They had piles of deer and tags were handed out free for the taking. Hunters had tags and they filled them. Look at all the states that are bitching about low deer numbers and you will see hunters listening to their DNR's saying here are the tags now go kill the deer, problem is..The DNR has no clue how many deer they really have in those states. Giving hunters 5 doe tags each in some states when deer numbers are not there will wipe out your herd quickly.

 

Many times hunters/Land Owners can make a better decision on how many deer should be taken on their property. DEC would have enough on their plate just trying to keep a huntable herd on land the state owns. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Just one example.

 

 

 

 

Audit likely after hunters challenge DNR

 

 

Estimating deer herd size is at crux of dissatisfaction.

 

 

Chances appear good Minnesota deer hunters will get their wish and management of the state’s whitetail herd will be reviewed by Legislative Auditor James Nobles.

A vote Friday by a Legislative Audit Commission subcommittee is expected to move a DNR deer audit plan forward, said Rep. Sondra Erickson, R-Princeton, commission chairperson.

“The number of topics proposed to be audited originally was about 140, and from that number we’ve gotten down to a dozen or so, one of which is deer management by the Department of Natural Resources,” Erickson said.

Deer hunters statewide, frustrated by the state’s comparatively small whitetail herd, have inundated legislators with petitions requesting an audit, Erickson said.

 

“I know my [Republican] caucus has shown strong support for an audit, and I believe the DFL caucus has as well,” she said. “Hunters have asked for an audit since last summer. They want to know whether the DNR is using the correct model to estimate the size of the deer herd, and whether other management decisions are being made correctly.”

The state’s 2014 deer harvest was about 100,000 animals fewer than the 225,000 target harvest recently endorsed by the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association (MDHA).

The harvest falloff last year was forecast by the DNR, because the agency issued fewer antlerless permits than in 2013 in an attempt to rebuild the state herd. Animals in northern Minnesota in particular were hit hard by two recent tough winters, contributing to the population decline.

But hunters say DNR management is also to blame for the decline, noting that fewer deer also roam central and southern Minnesota, where recent winters have been less severe.

DNR wildlife officials concede that in some areas of the state they issued too many antlerless permits in recent years, which in combination with the severe winter weather reduced whitetail numbers perhaps further, and faster, than they planned.

Momentum for an audit has gained in recent weeks, following the conclusion of stakeholder-group meetings convened by the DNR to help the agency develop new deer population goals in some parts of the state.

 

Some of the stakeholder groups wanted to increase deer numbers more than 50 percent in certain permit areas. But the DNR limited increases to that amount.

“The failure of DNR to even strive for increases above 50 percent reflects a self-defeating attitude that is not remotely responsive to the desires of Minnesota deer hunters,” MDHA executive director Craig Engwall wrote to DNR officials.

Engwall also complained that 80 percent supermajorities were required among stakeholder group members to make deer population recommendations, giving panel members with minority positions too much influence, he said.

Some deer management critics, including Brooks Johnson, president of Minnesota Bowhunters Inc., argue the DNR doesn’t have a good handle on how many — or how few — deer exist in the state.

Consequently, decisions made to increase or decrease deer numbers, and by how much, amount to “guesses.”

“For instance, the DNR’s perception of the deer herd size in the area I hunt wasn’t accurate, in my view,” Johnson said. “Where the DNR said the herd was down maybe 22 percent, our survey of hunter perceptions indicated the herd was down 65 percent.

“Consequently, agreeing on whether to increase the herd, and by how much, is impossible, because increasing one herd by 50 percent will give you a much different result than increasing the other herd by 50 percent.”

To gain better insight into how many deer the state holds, Johnson said, the DNR should factor more information into its model, including the amount of effort, measured by days afield, a hunter needs to kill a deer.

“It’s our belief we’re killing back the herd in the state,” Johnson said. “The DNR says the important number to estimate the herd size is the size of the buck kill. But we think more information is needed, because even if the buck kill remains fairly constant, more hunters are requiring more time in the field to kill the same number of bucks, thereby reducing the size of the herd in ways that can’t be easily determined under the current system.”

Sen. Mary Kiffmeyer, R-Big Lake, is a member of the Legislative Audit Commission subcommittee that will recommend which audit proposals move ahead.

“We’ve [legislators] all gotten e-mails from hunters regarding an audit, and that makes a big difference,” Kiffmeyer said. “There’s a lot of support for it, and I think it’s highly likely it will happen.

 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Four Season Whitetails

[dbHunterNY]

there's definitely a disconnect using harvest numbers to estimate population.

[Doc]

I have to admit that I am not a PA hunter, and was only down there a few days back in the early 80's on a quick bowhunt and I'm sure a lot has changed since then. So I really don't have any knowledge of habitat, herd density or anything else. But just based on the numbers in these articles, an 11% drop in the buck take seems like somebody is just thrashing around and managing by trial. I often figured that's what NYS's DEC does. They run all these computer programs to provide a cover story, but really simply wait until the herd gets so big that everyone is whining and then they flood the state with permits for a few years until all the hunters are claiming they can't find any deer and then they cut permits again ..... lol. Yeah I know that's kind of harsh, and is meant mostly tongue-in-cheek, but when you see the population bouncing wildly up and down, you do kind of get the impression that the management style might be more reactionary than pre-planned.

 

The 40% drop over 15 years sounds a little aggressive too. I think I understand why the word coming out of PA is usually negative. At any rate, it doesn't really sound like they do much different from what NYS does other than their statewide AR. I wonder if they have CTF's telling them what their harvest goals should be also.....lol. Are they balancing the herd to the habitat or simply greasing up whatever wheel squeaks the loudest? Sometimes you have to wonder.

 

But I guess the PA hunters have a problem of their own to worry about. But, I won't be just arbitrarily be accepting anymore that story about how PA does such a greater job than our DEC. I'm thinking a lot of that a lot of those comments probably has a lot to do with how the grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence. Most likely both states are doing the best they can, but not near as good as they claim.

[Goose chaser]

I have hunted PA since 1970, and have live in the finger Lakes since 1985 so hunt both states. Back before A/R the does were trimmed back pretty far, doe permits were easy to get and you were permitted a second deer, not just one and done. I hunt 2G. We were failrly successful , some nice bucks, some not. Because of predation, our herd has basicaly stayed the same.  we are fortunate to have better habitat due to continuous logging.hunter numbers up north have dropped, by quite a bit in most areas. I think the thing that both states need to answer to the sportsman, is what is best for the overall health of the deer herd? At this point, I don't believe either state can answer that. I also don't like to be told what kind of buck to shoot. I also hate to see the Seniors have too count points.Our local warden told us if we didin't like the amount of deer in our area, sell the camp and go elsewhere.

[mike rossi]

 

Many times hunters/Land Owners can make a better decision on how many deer should be taken on their property. DEC would have enough on their plate just trying to keep a huntable herd on land the state owns. 

 

And how would they base that decision? On how many deer they believe should be on their property or how many they would like to harvest?

 

A landowner can let as many hunters on his property as he wants, and if he is an agriculture producer, can get a liberal amount of depredation tags. So, a landowner, to a certain extent,  does indeed have the ability to do what you are advocating... 

[Larry]

Not only PA. take a look at Iowa. no ar's in Iowa but you can still decimate a deer herd by over harvsting does

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And how would they base that decision? On how many deer they believe should be on their property or how many they would like to harvest?

 

A landowner can let as many hunters on his property as he wants, and if he is an agriculture producer, can get a liberal amount of depredation tags. So, a landowner, to a certain extent,  does indeed have the ability to do what you are advocating... 

Your right and pretty much answered your own question. Many landowners that i know that have 1000 acres plus have managed their own deer for years based on their choices, not on what the DEC says they have to shoot or whom has to shoot them. The lands that i know and hunt that manage their own lands based on their views have some of the best hunting in the county.

[reeltime]

I have hunted pa since 77 as a resident till 87 and a nonresident since,  The deer management plan in both pa and ny is based on scientific numbers. is it the right way to manage deer? I don't know but I do know that is what we have to work with. 

 

While we all like to see lots of game animals sometimes our own self satisfaction is not in the best interest of the game we like to see.  I can remember the "good old days" of pa in the late 70's into the 80's where deer numbers were at an all time high.  I am not gonna lie as a young hunter seeing 200 deer on the first day of gun season was great and kept people interested and the constant barrage of shots was astonishing.

 

But while we all liked to see all the deer, it was not in the best health of the herd, generally the deer were smaller in body size, and if someone shot a 110" 8 or 10 point people came from miles around to see the monster buck the lucky hunter shot.  deer trails looked like cattle trails in the woods, the browse lines were ridiculous throughout most of the areas in the state I hunted.

 

back in the day it was 1 and done, doe shooting was taboo to many people and many doe licenses were applied for and if gotten were burnt. Finally in the 90's the started the bonus doe tags, again some people got them and refused to use them while some started to realize numbers needed to come down.  Basically the deer herd was out of control for a long time simply because of old beliefs and stubborn people.

 

Early in the 2000's the PGC tapped Gary Alt to head up the deer management program and many believed that if he did as well with the deer as he did with the bear program things would look up.  The biggest hurdle was gaining the hunters acceptance that this needed to happen. the PGC did a road show all across the state and while some got it others simply saw big antlers and didn't hear about the massive doe kill they wished to achieve.

 

The first 2 or 3 years of the AR program it was just as NY season being it was open deer season, unless you were there you can not even imagine the amount of gunshots the first days of gun season.  with the AR and HR (herd reduction) was in full swing and boosted doe license numbers did a darn good job of HR throughout most of the state but most noticeably on public lands.  It got to the point that they needed to go back to a split season and cut back on the number of doe tags because in some areas of the state they just about decimated the herd.

 

did something need done? yes, did it need to happen at that level? I don't know, maybe it did to allow the habitat time to recover.  What I do know is we have far healthier deer now than 30 years ago, in size, weight, and antler health.

 

Last years decline in numbers has nothing to do with the deer management plan or whether its working or not working or whether people agree with it or do not agree with it.  The weather on 2 of biggest days of their season was lousy, rain, high winds.  Hunters of today want instant gratification and everything handed to them with little work on their own part.  in our area by 10 am the first day the woods were essentially empty, thats not a deer management issue thats a hunter issue because you cant kill a deer setting on a couch, in the local coffee shop or riding around in your vehicle ( even though some people do )

 

 

I know lots of bucks made it through last season and deer numbers overall seem to be strong and with fawning this summer there should be a decent herd population by start of season, the PGC just released antlerless allocation numbers and most areas decreased or remained the same for the upcoming season.

 

[Doc]

A lot has been said here about the game manager's positions vs. the hunter's position. After a while it begins to sound like a "we vs. they" kind of situation. But in reality, what has to be maintained is a win-win situation between the two entities. Hunters will not be very satisfied in the long run if they fight down all attempts to maintain a healthy deer herd. But the different game management agencies will not be very effective if they alienate the only effective population control that they have .... the hunters. It really is a symbiotic relationship between hunters and those charged with the management of wildlife. 

 

So, when we start talking like hunters are the enemy we have to recognize that without hunters, the game management agencies (regardless of what state) would be absolutely impotent. And the other situation is true as well. Without proper management according to at least the basic biological principles, hunters would eventually wind up with nothing to hunt.

 

So the proper answer most of the time is "compromise". Mother Nature does not demand that management decisions always have to be 100% according to the books. Good game management does not demand that deer levels be kept on that razor thin line where a single or multiple set of seasonal problems in a given year result in calamity in the herd and harvest. And here and there, in an effort to satisfy and keep a stable and effective level of hunters some accommodations in deer herd size can be made without catastrophic results. But hunters and other interests should not be so pressuring that they become an impediment to acceptable game management.

[wolc123]

I agree that last years numbers in PA have very little to do with their deer management system or antler restrictions.   Wait till you hear NY's numbers for last season.   A local butcher I know had less than half his normal numbers.   Hardly anyone I know killed any doe last season in NY, myself included, and buck numbers were also way down from the start of archery season until the end of ML.  That is what happens with record acorn numbers occur like last season across most of the Northeast.  Deer can simply switch to "nocturnal", as soon as the human scent starts showing up in the woods.   You can't legally kill what you cant see in the daylight.  

 

Fortunately, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, provided us with a large, "gift" buck from a friend during archery season, one on a silver platter for me and my crossbow, and another "giant" of a buck for me, right after I asked him for one during gun season. Then he threw in a fine young "road-kill" button-buck from some "hit-and-run" driver, right at the end of our driveway, on the last day of ML season.   It was cool to get the chance to compare the flavor and texture of tenderloins from 2-1/2 year, 1-1/2 year, 3-1/2 +, and 6 month bucks, all prepared the same way in the same year.  

 

I think PA is doing ok if that was the extent of their drop-off last season.  I am going to guess NY was off about 25% in buck and overall harvest numbers, state-wide.   The good news is, the harsh winter backed off just in the nick of time, and there are way more deer around than normal right now due to that and the dismal harvest numbers last season.   We wont see acorns like we did last year for a long time so this season's harvest numbers should be "crazy-high" across the region.   I'm starting to give away some venison now, to make some space in the "still-stuffed" freezer, and we are trying to eat it at least 4 days a week.  As a pure "meat-hunter, killer, I always have more incentive to hunt when the freezer is empty or close to it.                   

[Buckstopshere]

I knew I would ruffle a lot of feathers when I wrote the column, but the 40% drop in Pa. take in the last 13 years translates to me simply how many fewer hunters are successful now in Pa., each year and what a tragedy that is. 50,000 fewer hunters each year get a deer in Pa. now. Somebody has to have the guts to say that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. The Pa. experiment has been a disaster for the average deer hunter, not so though for the landed gent with umpteen acres, food plots out the wazoo to hold deer....We can talk about antler size, and body size, and quality of the experience all we want...bottom line is that it is a 40% drop since Alt et al figured out a way to sell whitetail herd reduction to the masses and have them drink the AR kool aid. And I wanted to give us Empire State hunters a heads-up as we go into the deer meetings this year to decide on how AR for NY will unfold for ours and our youth's future hunts. 

[jjb4900]

Fortunately, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, provided us with a large, "gift" buck from a friend during archery season, one on a silver platter for me and my crossbow, and another "giant" of a buck for me, right after I asked him for one during gun season. Then he threw in a fine young "road-kill" button-buck from some "hit-and-run" driver, right at the end of our driveway, on the last day of ML season.        

you never cease to amuse me...you should take your comedy act on the road.

[Lawdwaz]

I knew I would ruffle a lot of feathers when I wrote the column, but the 40% drop in Pa. take in the last 13 years translates to me simply how many fewer hunters are successful now in Pa., each year and what a tragedy that is. 50,000 fewer hunters each year get a deer in Pa. now. Somebody has to have the guts to say that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. The Pa. experiment has been a disaster for the average deer hunter, not so though for the landed gent with umpteen acres, food plots out the wazoo to hold deer....We can talk about antler size, and body size, and quality of the experience all we want...bottom line is that it is a 40% drop since Alt et al figured out a way to sell whitetail herd reduction to the masses and have them drink the AR kool aid. And I wanted to give us Empire State hunters a heads-up as we go into the deer meetings this year to decide on how AR for NY will unfold for ours and our youth's future hunts. 

 

I haven't got a chance to read the current issue but will in the next day or so.  Thanks for all your efforts in enlightening the non-believers.

 

[SteveB]

  

 

Fortunately, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, provided us with a large, "gift" buck from a friend during archery season, one on a silver platter for me and my crossbow, and another "giant" of a buck for me, right after I asked him for one during gun season. Then he threw in a fine young "road-kill" button-buck from some "hit-and-run" driver, right at the end of our driveway, on the last day of ML season.   It was cool to get the chance to compare the flavor and texture of tenderloins from 2-1/2 year, 1-1/2 year, 3-1/2 +, and 6 month bucks, all prepared the same way in the same year.

I'm glad he got you your deer that prevented starvation in your family - rather than curing cancer and ending heart disease.

[Doc]

I knew I would ruffle a lot of feathers when I wrote the column, but the 40% drop in Pa. take in the last 13 years translates to me simply how many fewer hunters are successful now in Pa., each year and what a tragedy that is. 50,000 fewer hunters each year get a deer in Pa. now. Somebody has to have the guts to say that the emperor is not wearing any clothes. The Pa. experiment has been a disaster for the average deer hunter, not so though for the landed gent with umpteen acres, food plots out the wazoo to hold deer....We can talk about antler size, and body size, and quality of the experience all we want...bottom line is that it is a 40% drop since Alt et al figured out a way to sell whitetail herd reduction to the masses and have them drink the AR kool aid. And I wanted to give us Empire State hunters a heads-up as we go into the deer meetings this year to decide on how AR for NY will unfold for ours and our youth's future hunts. 

I thought your article was quite interesting. Those numbers are quite telling, and they do reflect the comments I have been hearing in recent years form PA hunters. Also, the connection between AR and shrinking doe numbers is another thing that had not occurred to me.

 

Good article .... Congrats.

[Buckstopshere]

Nobody is challenging me on the numbers, yet, though I have hand some pretty heated ad hominem attacks since the article appeared. I expect that from those that drink the AR koolaid as a panacea for getting a big buck.

Another aspect I didn't mention was the crock, the worn out mantra of "back in the day in Pa. when the Commonwealth was overrun with deer, they were tiny...like rabbits. And then we had AR and now we have bigger deer.  What a bunch of...road apples. For the last 30 years the Potter County Enterprise puts out an interesting edition. It is their big buck special. And in it are a lot of bucks, of all sizes, shot in the Coudersport area. I look forward to it each year...and surprisingly, the winner of the big buck contest is no bigger than that of 10, 20 or even 30 years previous. The only change is that there are fewer bucks entered. And that is a shame.

 

Change to ARs makes deer bigger... lol. What a crock! Bad science. about like the fetal measurements on timing the rut.

 

And since when is "herd balance" (as if it could ever be attained by the average hunter/landowner) really only more than an abstract notion.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Buckstopshere

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Nobody is challenging me on the numbers, yet, though I have hand some pretty heated ad hominem attacks since the article appeared. I expect that from those that drink the AR koolaid as a panacea for getting a big buck.

Another aspect I didn't mention was the crock, the worn out mantra of "back in the day in Pa. when the Commonwealth was overrun with deer, they were tiny...like rabbits. And then we had AR and now we have bigger deer.  What a bunch of...road apples. For the last 30 years the Potter County Enterprise puts out an interesting edition. It is their big buck special. And in it are a lot of bucks, of all sizes, shot in the Coudersport area. I look forward to it each year...and surprisingly, the winner of the big buck contest is no bigger than that of 10, 20 or even 30 years previous. The only change is that there are fewer bucks entered. And that is a shame.

 

Change to ARs makes deer bigger... lol. What a crock! Bad science. about like the fetal measurements on timing the rut.

 

And since when is "herd balance" (as if it could ever be attained by the average hunter/landowner) really only more than an abstract notion.

Not sure on all the Pa stuff but i can show you one state owned piece of property where Ar has made much bigger bucks and i can also show you a handful of properties that are balanced by nobody but the Hunter/Landowner without listening to what any DEC people telling us what we should do with harvests.

 

One must remember...When bigger bucks are made with antler restricts, We are also making a much smarter beast that the average hunter has little chance of bagging. Every now and then ones pecker will get him into the back of the truck but for the most part these bigger bucks live another year to get bigger and older and more unkillable.

[Cabin Fever]

I hunted in PA every year from 1978-2002 on the same family property. It was over run with deer. If I didn't see "at least" 50 deer on opening day of rifle season, something was wrong (or I was sleeping)! My family still owns and hunts the property. If they see 3-5 deer now on opening day, they're lucky! Some years they don't see any. They seldom ever get bucks anymore! Pretty frustrating!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I hunted in PA every year from 1978-2002 on the same family property. It was over run with deer. If I didn't see "at least" 50 deer on opening day of rifle season, something was wrong (or I was sleeping)! My family still owns and hunts the property. If they see 3-5 deer now on opening day, they're lucky! Some years they don't see any. They seldom ever get bucks anymore! Pretty frustrating!

Why do you think this is?  Did you guys take out 15 does a year? Were the hunters themselves the problem because they listened to the DNR when deer numbers were coming down, they say here is a fist full of tags and hunters kill them because they have the tags, without doing their own management of what deer were on their property.

 

When deer numbers come down from crazy...seeing 50 a day numbers..Like Letchworth once was..The deer will go where life is best and their needs are met. If your land is not that land you will have long days in the treestand.

[Buckstopshere]

There are no scientific measurements that I am aware of that validate when an AR program is implemented, the deer are bigger. If you are saying that the bucks are older and therefore larger, because older deer at 3.5 years old weigh more than a 1.5 year old buck, that makes sense.  That is true any place whether there is AR or not. But the proponents of the Pa. AR system are saying that the deer are bigger, magically. Where is the logic for that sentiment? Do they mean that now in Pa. there are fewer whitetails, so the surviving population eats more so those individuals swell up?  I think a lot of hunters on the fence on the AR issue take those kind of statements as gospel, swallowing them hook, line, and sinker and trusting the AR sources when a bit of objective reflection shows us how nonsensical those types of statements really are. So when the AR advocates in the upcoming NY meetings say, "If we have AR in NY the deer will be bigger." Someone can ask for the proof and the data to support the nonsensical assertion.

[Cabin Fever]

Why do you think this is? Did you guys take out 15 does a year? Were the hunters themselves the problem because they listened to the DNR when deer numbers were coming down, they say here is a fist full of tags and hunters kill them because they have the tags, without doing their own management of what deer were on their property.

When deer numbers come down from crazy...seeing 50 a day numbers..Like Letchworth once was..The deer will go where life is best and their needs are met. If your land is not that land you will have long days in the treestand.