Get your vaseline ready NY! Its here...

[phade]

I don't think anyone can know the motivation for sure. We can see the resulting regulation change. I can also put a pretty good argument together why this change will not yield the results they want, especially to the numbers they elude to. They make it sound like there is sever habitat destruction and a major over population. Let's take them at their word since they are the professionals. But that leads into a host of questions that they made no attempt to answer and they should have seen them coming.

 

If the population is so out of control that there is a "critical need" to reduce it, why use the least productive weapon. Lets not get into a percentage conversation, they need numbers reduced and reduced in a big way. CRITICAL. right? Find a way to use guns and I don't mean ML's. Just get them removed and be over with it. Return to normal seasons when it is reduced to appropriate levels.

 

Another question ---four areas with this "Critical need" are 8H, 8F, 8G and 8N. And since they need the take of doe to go up so much they did the most logical thing, besides the use of the least effective weapon to shoulder the increase. They reduced the number of available permits. 8H from 32,600 to 27,200; 8F from 53,700 to 39,100; 8G from 55,300 to 44,900 and 8N from 29,200 to 28,500.

 

I guess the professionals have it well under control and the above are not assumptions.

 

Part of the drop in my book is that they knew the antlerless was going into effect, potentially increasing the success rate of DMPs. Likely not all of the reasoning, but I suspect it factored into their decisions. So, next year, they can say the percent went from roughly 14% (ballparking the avg in those areas) to XX%, touting it as a major victory to leave it intact for future years until "further notice" or as a way to further spin their agenda to bring in guns if it doesn't go up significantly.

 

For as stupid as they look publicly, behind the scenes, they reflect the smartness characteristic of Cuomo's administration. Don't read that as Cuomo being "good"....that admin just knows their crap when it comes to political navigating. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Part of the drop in my book is that they knew the antlerless was going into effect, potentially increasing the success rate of DMPs. Likely not all of the reasoning, but I suspect it factored into their decisions. So, next year, they can say the percent went from roughly 14% (ballparking the avg in those areas) to XX%, touting it as a major victory to leave it intact for future years until "further notice" or as a way to further spin their agenda to bring in guns if it doesn't go up significantly.

 

For as stupid as they look publicly, behind the scenes, they reflect the smartness characteristic of Cuomo's administration. Don't read that as Cuomo being "good"....that admin just knows their crap when it comes to political navigating. 

That was actually my point. There is no reason to do what they have done other than spin. antlerless take increased 4+% from 2013 to 2014 based on their 2014 report in 8H they need to show a BIG increase in %filled to prove they knew what they were doing. if they show the real numbers the totals won't lie, whatever the % is calculated from.

[Doc]

Doc,

 

I'll take back that yes and no, I can see that if you can't actually make the assumption there is no way to know if its right or wrong.

 

But without any assumptions is then everyone one here just bitching for no reason?

Oh, the new regulations are not assumptions. They are indeed fact, and the bowhunters and muzzleloaders are being singled out as the sole population control with some nasty threats being leveled by the DEC if they fail to do the impossible. Those are public declarations without any need for assumptions. They are documented facts and actual regulation changes that anybody can take as a reason for bitching or a reason to applaud.

 

By the way, something that occurred to me just now, is that the only ones that should be upset by all this is the bowhunters only, because if the muzzleloaders hold back on doe harvests, they will be rewarded with a brand new early muzzleloader season. It a no-lose situation for them, and they should be applauding this situation. Sorry, a bit of a side-thought that just popped into my mind.

[Doc]

 

Another question ---four areas with this "Critical need" are 8H, 8F, 8G and 8N. And since they need the take of doe to go up so much they did the most logical thing, besides the use of the least effective weapon to shoulder the increase. They reduced the number of available permits. 8H from 32,600 to 27,200; 8F from 53,700 to 39,100; 8G from 55,300 to 44,900 and 8N from 29,200 to 28,500.

I was trying to find last year's permit allocations for these WMUs and was unsuccessful. I suspected this might be the case but was unable to get ahold of the data.

 

They have lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned.

[orion]

Doc, if you don't know it all, which you don't, then there are assumptions.

 

your assumption that they are screwing us, which is probably true, is still a assumption. And we won't have them here!

 

It could well be for a good reason they want the harvest done in October. You don't know.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, if you don't know it all, which you don't, then there are assumptions.

 

your assumption that they are screwing us, which is probably true, is still a assumption. And we won't have them here!

 

It could well be for a good reason they want the harvest done in October. You don't know.

 

October, November, December, doesnt matter, they are dead before they give birth to new fawns. Thats no assumption, thats a fact.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Doc,

 

Based on the info from 2014 harvest (Thanks WNYBH) and this year probability charts

 

All areas that had the change imposed

 

format will be WMU / 2014  /2015  ( delta -  )

 

3M / 49500 /42900  ( delta -6,600 less )

4J / Max / Max         ( delta -0)

8A / 20000 / 14400  ( delta -5,600 less )

8C/ Max / Max          ( delta -0  )

8F / 53700 / 39100  ( delta -14,600  less  )

8G / 55300 / 44900  ( delta -10,400 less  )

8H / 32600 / 27200  ( delta - 5,400 less)

8N / 29200 / 28500  ( delta - 700 less  )

9A / 24000 / 19600  ( delta -4,400 less )

9F / 15800 / 14000  ( delta -1,800  less  )

 

For a total of 49,500 less permits in the target areas.

 

By the way, the numbers above aren't assumptions either...lol

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Five Seasons]

I think we've beat around the bush long enough with this one.

The FACT of the matter is this....

 

"Gun hunters"..., (also read as bowhunters with a gun in their hands.., strictly gun hunters..., and gun hunters that may also be ML/x-bow hunters) are more excited to pull the trigger on a nice meaty doe than most "die-hard bow hunters" and there's no denying that.

 

I agree with your statement, I just don't think it's black and white to why bow hunters prefer bucks. I've tried to express it in words and it might not always come out. I just believe the archer is a more serious passionate deer hunter. One who started with the gun. Loved it so much that he saw an opportunity to hunt more and took up bow hunting. The meat hunter can almost always fill his freezer during gun/mz. So there's no need to invest the time and money to be a successful archer.

 

Just my .02, but I believe the idiots at the DEC need to take some statistics classes because you need to understand all the variables in your data on why a bowhunter is primarily a buck hunter before you make idiot regulation changes.

[Five Seasons]

We all dream of that monster B&C buck!

"A chilly morning. You are in your prime spot and hopeful. Wind is perfect. Around 8:30, the biggest buck you have ever seen just materializes ( as they like to do ) at 20 yards. Your heart rate doubles as you watch for an opening to make your draw. There it is! You draw and set that pin in the perfect spot! After 30 seconds ( feels like 2 hours ) you have the perfect shot! RELEASE! You hear that mild 'thud' and know after seeing where your arrow hit you made a great shot. You try to listen over the sound of your heart for that buck to stop crashing through the woods! The woods become silent very quick. You wait and your mind races with visions of walking up in that buck dead after running only about 50 yards. You climb down and start tracking. Sure enough, about 35 yards there he is! SCORE! You get your measurement and bingo, you just made the books!"

 

I don't care if you hunt with a bow only, bow and gun season, or w/e! That's the dream! We all have it. I do. How many honestly don't have that dream? Truth is, yes, I think at least 90% want that trophy.

 

 

 

The DEC mucked up! Deal with it!

Some of the talk on this thread is just insane! I hope most of it just that, talk from heated minds and just venting. Here's something maybe you don't realize. If you get all frikin' crazy and don't follow the laws, what point are you really proving? All you will succeed in doing is making the 'man' pissed off and possibly hurt the whole deer hunting community.

 

Do what ever the hell you want! Just remember, you are not the only hunter in NYS! So doing stupid things will effect more then just you.

 

I know the point you were trying to make, and I don't want to nit pick, but even the horn hunter that I am getting my measurement stick out is the furthest thing from my mind when standing over a kill. To be honest, the thought and image of a hunter standing over a buck not even field dressed with his Rackalator bothers me.

 

[Mossberg500Guy]

Why didn't they make it in All Seasons an antlered buck with 3 or more points at least 1 inch long instead of the Antlerless only and increase available DMP in the areas with antlerless only. But even then you can't tell much difference between a fawn Buck and a Doe and more fawn bucks will be taken with the DMPs.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Why didn't they make it in All Seasons an antlered buck with 3 or more points at least 1 inch long instead of the Antlerless only and increase available DMP in the areas with antlerless only. But even then you can't tell much difference between a fawn Buck and a Doe and more fawn bucks will be taken with the DMPs.

I don't want to turn this into yet one more AR thread but if you want the AR you mentioned to get 1.5 year old bucks through , it won't work in the areas that are impacted in region 8 and 9.

[nyantler]

Doc, if you don't know it all, which you don't, then there are assumptions.

 

your assumption that they are screwing us, which is probably true, is still a assumption. And we won't have them here!

 

It could well be for a good reason they want the harvest done in October. You don't know.

I think asumption and opinion are two dofferent things... In my opinion I think Doc is probably right... there is no way to say yes or no not knowing for sure.. but I'm still allowed my opinion of what I think is going on. I can say however that mine and Docs opinion are pretty right on given what we do know and the lack of any credible logic behind what the DEC is doing...

 

and why would they want the harvest done in October?... and why wouldn't they want it done in the most efficient way ( during the gun season) ... none of what they are doing makes any sense as far as conservation goes... so the logical thought would be that they have another agenda.

[SteveB]

I don't want to turn this into yet one more AR thread but if you want the AR you mentioned to get 1.5 year old bucks through , it won't work in the areas that are impacted in region 8 and 9.

Or most/all of 7

[SteveB]

The meat hunter can almost always fill his freezer during gun/mz. So there's no need to invest the time and money to be a successful archer.

Not to nitpick, but success rate for all hunters runs 30 to 35%.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Or most/all of 7

yeah. I haven't seen one spike or 4 point this year but can show you a dozen small 6 and 8 pointers that are all 1.5 come the season

[Mossberg500Guy]

It would indeed help limit the take of young bucks with 3 points and less, they are the future of repopulation, not that I'm saying I'm in support of AR but its a lot better than the antlerless only. I have not seen a 6 pointer or more in the last 3 years and I've taken 2 fawn bucks (without spots) and 1 young buck with 4 small points in the last 3 years, now if I was limited to only take a buck with at least 3 points on one antler maybe the young bucks I killed would be big boys today but I'll never know, yes it would suck to be unsuccessful but it would help future population at least in my opinion idk, what are your thoughts?  

[DirtTime]

It would indeed help limit the take of young bucks with 3 points and less, they are the future of repopulation, not that I'm saying I'm in support of AR but its a lot better than the antlerless only. I have not seen a 6 pointer or more in the last 3 years and I've taken 2 fawn bucks (without spots) and 1 young buck with 4 small points in the last 3 years, now if I was limited to only take a buck with at least 3 points on one antler maybe the young bucks I killed would be big boys today but I'll never know, yes it would suck to be unsuccessful but it would help future population at least in my opinion idk, what are your thoughts?  

 

The AR is harsh. But bow hunters are up in arms about only being allowed to kill does only for the first two weeks of the seasons. Their anger is justified, I get it. You have to burn tags. I love bow hunting, but due to things, I am not bow hunting this year. But getting carried away will not be good on the big picture. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by ....rob

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The AR is harsh. But bow hunters are up in arms about only being allowed to kill does only for the first two weeks of the seasons. Their anger is justified, I get it. You have to burn tags. I love bow hunting, but due to things, I am not bow hunting this year. But getting carried away will not be good on the big picture.

Define "carried away". You mean complaining publicly about poor decisions? Trying to hold them accountable table? Spreading the word about their case of cranial rectumitis?

[Doc]

Doc,

 

Based on the info from 2014 harvest (Thanks WNYBH) and this year probability charts

 

All areas that had the change imposed

 

format will be WMU / 2014  /2015  ( delta -  )

 

3M / 49500 /42900  ( delta -6,600 less )

4J / Max / Max         ( delta -0)

8A / 20000 / 14400  ( delta -5,600 less )

8C/ Max / Max          ( delta -0  )

8F / 53700 / 39100  ( delta -14,600  less  )

8G / 55300 / 44900  ( delta -10,400 less  )

8H / 32600 / 27200  ( delta - 5,400 less)

8N / 29200 / 28500  ( delta - 700 less  )

9A / 24000 / 19600  ( delta -4,400 less )

9F / 15800 / 14000  ( delta -1,800  less  )

 

For a total of 49,500 less permits in the target areas.

 

By the way, the numbers above aren't assumptions either...lol

So, how do they justify whining about the overpopulation crisis and then lowering the number of permits? That really doesn't make sense. The words don't match the actions.

[dbHunterNY]

So, how do they justify whining about the overpopulation crisis and then lowering the number of permits? That really doesn't make sense. The words don't match the actions.

 

 

Doc,

 

Based on the info from 2014 harvest (Thanks WNYBH) and this year probability charts

 

All areas that had the change imposed

 

format will be WMU / 2014  /2015  ( delta -  )

 

3M / 49500 /42900  ( delta -6,600 less )

4J / Max / Max         ( delta -0)

8A / 20000 / 14400  ( delta -5,600 less )

8C/ Max / Max          ( delta -0  )

8F / 53700 / 39100  ( delta -14,600  less  )

8G / 55300 / 44900  ( delta -10,400 less  )

8H / 32600 / 27200  ( delta - 5,400 less)

8N / 29200 / 28500  ( delta - 700 less  )

9A / 24000 / 19600  ( delta -4,400 less )

9F / 15800 / 14000  ( delta -1,800  less  )

 

For a total of 49,500 less permits in the target areas.

 

By the way, the numbers above aren't assumptions either...lol

 

This is purely based on speculation and educated assumptions but here's what I think is a possibility....

 

DEC has thrown lots and lots of DMPs out there that don't get filled.  Printing more simply wouldn't see any noticeable increase harvest rate so the allocation didn't go up.  additional cost in man hours to process 49,500 tags that probably still won't get filled might be enough to pay for an extra body or overtime to help process the additional expected deer take, maybe makeup some expenses from Cornell surveys, or something else related.  those where allocation numbers and not actual tags purchased?

 

what has been said that sucks is I'm sure if DEC can, they most definitely will find a way to spin the numbers and make it look like it was or was more of a better decision regarding harvest outcome.

 

Only way I can justify promoting doe harvest in some way that early is biological logic.  if a doe lives to see the phases of the rut buck or bucks will have vested energy into that doe, be it seeking, chasing, breeding, or keep another buck from breeding it while it's in estrous.  if you take the doe later on that vested buck energy was wasted and could've been gone toward a surviving doe, better physical condition into winter, and additional antler growth due to better condition leading into spring, etc.

 

...all that said I've already stated my opinion on what they should've done versus what they did.  just trying to make any sense of it all.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

This is purely based on speculation and educated assumptions but here's what I think is a possibility....

 

DEC has thrown lots and lots of DMPs out there that don't get filled.  Printing more simply wouldn't see any noticeable increase harvest rate so the allocation didn't go up.  additional cost in man hours to process 49,500 tags that probably still won't get filled might be enough to pay for an extra body or overtime to help process the additional expected deer take, maybe makeup some expenses from Cornell surveys, or something else related.  those where allocation numbers and not actual tags purchased?

 

what has been said that sucks is I'm sure if DEC can, they most definitely will find a way to spin the numbers and make it look like it was or was more of a better decision regarding harvest outcome.

 

Only way I can justify promoting doe harvest in some way that early is biological logic.  if a doe lives to see the phases of the rut buck or bucks will have vested energy into that doe, be it seeking, chasing, breeding, or keep another buck from breeding it while it's in estrous.  if you take the doe later on that vested buck energy was wasted and could've been gone toward a surviving doe, better physical condition into winter, and additional antler growth due to better condition leading into spring, etc.

 

...all that said I've already stated my opinion on what they should've done versus what they did.  just trying to make any sense of it all.

What expense? It is an automated system and the retailers issue the tags. If you are actually talking about the cost of the paper I can't imagine there is anything there of significance.

 

and as far as the energy going to the surviving does.....who cares if there is such a "critical need" to reduce the population in these areas? so they don't fawn well. so they don't winter well. The goal is DEAD right? major catastrophe if we don't reduce numbers based on what they are saying. so what would this matter. You can't apply QDM logic or justification to this half a$$ed process

[moog5050]

Frankly, as Phade was suggesting earlier, DEC has created a system to its benefit that puts the BHs in a catch 22.  Either will kill and report more doe in the first two weeks allowing DEC to say "see our plan is working" and continuing it.  Or, we don't kill and report more doe in the first 2 weeks allowing DEC to say "see BHs can't get it done" and we now need to go to more extreme measure by allowing guns or MLs in early season.  No way for BHs to win under these circumstances.   DEC has put themselves in a great position to do what they want in these "overpopulated" areas for the foreseeable future without risk of clear objective criticism.  Couple that with undefined goals and DEC can justify whatever they choose with regard to altering bow seasons.  Great political maneuvering but bad management if they want true results on reducing doe populations now.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Frankly, as Phade was suggesting earlier, DEC has created a system to its benefit that puts the BHs in a catch 22.  Either will kill and report more doe in the first two weeks allowing DEC to say "see our plan is working" and continuing it.  Or, we don't kill and report more doe in the first 2 weeks allowing DEC to say "see BHs can't get it done" and we now need to go to more extreme measure by allowing guns or MLs in early season.  No way for BHs to win under these circumstances.   DEC has put themselves in a great position to do what they want in these "overpopulated" areas for the foreseeable future without risk of clear objective criticism.  Couple that with undefined goals and DEC can justify whatever they choose with regard to altering bow seasons.  Great political maneuvering but bad management if they want true results on reducing doe populations now.

Exactly!!! they are operating just like...............well.................Government and politicians, but NOT wildlife managers

[WNYBuckHunter]

Why didn't they make it in All Seasons an antlered buck with 3 or more points at least 1 inch long instead of the Antlerless only and increase available DMP in the areas with antlerless only. But even then you can't tell much difference between a fawn Buck and a Doe and more fawn bucks will be taken with the DMPs.

 

Simple, because the doe only thing has nothing to do with yearling buck management or Antler Restrictions.

[WNYBuckHunter]

What expense? It is an automated system and the retailers issue the tags. If you are actually talking about the cost of the paper I can't imagine there is anything there of significance.

 

and as far as the energy going to the surviving does.....who cares if there is such a "critical need" to reduce the population in these areas? so they don't fawn well. so they don't winter well. The goal is DEAD right? major catastrophe if we don't reduce numbers based on what they are saying. so what would this matter. You can't apply QDM logic or justification to this half a$$ed process

 

Seems like they are all wintering just fine if the area is overpopulated. The bucks around me are packing plenty of headger, actually some of the largest, on average, in the state. The theory he gave is logical, doesnt hold water in the areas they carved out. Its all about population.