I'm changing my stance on XBOWS

[LET EM GROW]

Archery season gives us an opportunity at the animal in its natural state, and a somewhat primitive manner. Strategically set ambush points, close ranged..Not running 100 mph from the hammers of others firearms, you cant shoot deer after dark legally, and after deer are blasted at a time or two, an adult deer anyways, will basically be nocturnal for some time.. The archery tackle during rifle season, is the equivalent to bringing a knife to a gun fight .. 

[Five Seasons]

The original bow season was created by and for bow hunters so they could take part in a unique way of providing weapons challenges to their deer hunting .... period. It was not at all about bringing in any significant money. It was not about any imagined impact on herd management and in fact was not participated in by any significant numbers of hunters for a long time and was looked on as a very low impact curiosity by most hunters.

 

Yes it has grown in popularity over the decades and the nature of bowhunting has changed significantly every time a new weapon or technological advancement was introduced. Is that a good thing? Probably not if the whole removal of the concept of challenge is the necessary result and now the primary thrust of the activity.

 

Further NYS bowhunting history: http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/574-history-nys-archery/

 

I was speaking to hunting seasons in general. If I misread his comment then I apologize.

[nyantler]

The original bow season was created by and for bow hunters so they could take part in a unique way of providing weapons challenges to their deer hunting .... period. It was not at all about bringing in any significant money. It was not about any imagined impact on herd management and in fact was not participated in by any significant numbers of hunters for a long time and was looked on as a very low impact curiosity by most hunters.

 

Yes it has grown in popularity over the decades and the nature of bowhunting has changed significantly every time a new weapon or technological advancement was introduced. Is that a good thing? Probably not if the whole removal of the concept of challenge is the necessary result and now the primary thrust of the activity.

 

Further NYS bowhunting history: http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/574-history-nys-archery/

The idea of "challenge" is subjective... I personally don't think a compound bow is a challenge... so it is hard to draw the line if "challenge" is the benchmark. The idea of a relatively silent kill, I believe, is a better benchmark for determining the difference between the gun and bow season... the crossbow falls into that category... it certainly doesn't disrupt the whole deer woods like a gun does... regardless of it's efficiency compared to other bows. 

[Jmny]

Well, let's see did I get it? Apparently more than you perceived my sarcasm in my reply to your insulting question. And funny how your initial posting that questioned the readers ability to understand is so similar two the comments made by the hunters in both scenarios. Funny how someone's lack of confidence causes them to name call as a means of attaining that self confidence/ manhood.

While I'm at it, let's address this revised history of the use of a bow to justify ones point of view.

Crossbow invented in 5th century

Longbow - invented by Celts in Wales 1180C.E.used by English military in the 1300's. Original long bow was 6 to 7 feet long and 5/8 th inch wide. Majority made of yew, but ash,hazel and elm wood were also used. With a draw weight of 200 pounds. Shot over a half mile. The long bow was a market improvement over the crossbow. Archers could shoot 15-20 arrows per minute to the 2-3 crossbow arrows "SEE BATTLE OF CRECY".

Recurve bow- credited to the Mon

Compound bows

First introduced by Holless Wilbur Allen of Missouri in 1966. A patent was,established in 1969. Hugh mechanical advantages over the recurve.

Leveraging system using cables and pulleys to bend the limbs.enabling the use of stiffer limbs.

The cam/ pulleys also allowed for what is termed "let off". It use to be 50% when I hunted with my compound. But I understand now that 65% and above has become more the standard. And the use of releases makes it a more consistent than finger shooting, " Archers paradox", add peepsights and stabilizers and we see how far the compound bow has advanced from the traditional bow.

Cross bow 135-200 draw,weights

100% let off

Manual trigger pull.

Use of sights or scope

Now for all of you died in the wool hunters,that equate a,compound with your ability as a hunter because of the advantage of speed ( real or imagined) look up the let off and speed of the following bows:

BEAR MOTIVE

BOWTECH INSANTITY

APA MAMBA 6

MATTHEWS MR-5

PSE OMEN.

350 fps to 366 fps

With up to 80% let off.

I don't have the time to research the speed,drop and kids metric energy of arrows shot from long bow,recurve,compound and crossbows. Oh, I guess I should include a the shotgun , muzzloader and rifles should be included seeing New York state requires you to have a muzzleloader license. Which further fuels the minds of those hunters to lazy to look up this information before making public statement how shooting a,cross bow is comparable to a muzzleloader. But seeing the powers to be( a group one would assume possessed a certain degree of intelligence) have categorized the crossbows as muzzleloader you can't blame the hunters for following suit. So much for independent thinking.

[jjb4900]

I think the biggest concern, mine anyway, is that with the introduction of crossbows into Archery season, that will bring those who are too lazy to pick up a longbow and put in the time and effort required, along with that will come guys stomping around the woods like they are carrying a gun disrupting and destroying what most enjoy about the archery season...time will tell. I did get a crossbow that I plan on using towards the end of the season if things don't pan out, but have no intention of changing how I hunt during Archery season.

[stoneam2006]

I think the biggest concern, mine anyway, is that with the introduction of crossbows into Archery season, that will bring those who are too lazy to pick up a longbow and put in the time and effort required, along with that will come guys stomping around the woods like they are carrying a gun disrupting and destroying what most enjoy about the archery season...time will tell. I did get a crossbow that I plan on using towards the end of the season if things don't pan out, but have no intention of changing how I hunt during Archery season.

As I am proud inclusion i see that concern with them thinking it's a gun. Sure even if think that still hunting with a xbow will be way easier than compound but in the same way I think it will be very quickly learned by anyone trying that you can not shoot a running deer with a bow even if it is a xbow...all seasons have downfalls but I think the benefit some could have with full inclusion is worth dealing with so more outdoorsman can enjoy the fair weather and rut that archery season brings...

Ps I am a Lil bias as my dad cannot draw a compound and can not get the permit and would love to hunt early October weather with his xbow...we will be out in 8n this weekend hopefully he can get a shot

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[nyantler]

Well, let's see did I get it? Apparently more than you perceived my sarcasm in my reply to your insulting question. And funny how your initial posting that questioned the readers ability to understand is so similar two the comments made by the hunters in both scenarios. Funny how someone's lack of confidence causes them to name call as a means of attaining that self confidence/ manhood.

While I'm at it, let's address this revised history of the use of a bow to justify ones point of view.

Crossbow invented in 5th century

Longbow - invented by Celts in Wales 1180C.E.used by English military in the 1300's. Original long bow was 6 to 7 feet long and 5/8 th inch wide. Majority made of yew, but ash,hazel and elm wood were also used. With a draw weight of 200 pounds. Shot over a half mile. The long bow was a market improvement over the crossbow. Archers could shoot 15-20 arrows per minute to the 2-3 crossbow arrows "SEE BATTLE OF CRECY".

Recurve bow- credited to the Mon

Compound bows

First introduced by Holless Wilbur Allen of Missouri in 1966. A patent was,established in 1969. Hugh mechanical advantages over the recurve.

Leveraging system using cables and pulleys to bend the limbs.enabling the use of stiffer limbs.

The cam/ pulleys also allowed for what is termed "let off". It use to be 50% when I hunted with my compound. But I understand now that 65% and above has become more the standard. And the use of releases makes it a more consistent than finger shooting, " Archers paradox", add peepsights and stabilizers and we see how far the compound bow has advanced from the traditional bow.

Cross bow 135-200 draw,weights

100% let off

Manual trigger pull.

Use of sights or scope

Now for all of you died in the wool hunters,that equate a,compound with your ability as a hunter because of the advantage of speed ( real or imagined) look up the let off and speed of the following bows:

BEAR MOTIVE

BOWTECH INSANTITY

APA MAMBA 6

MATTHEWS MR-5

PSE OMEN.

350 fps to 366 fps

With up to 80% let off.

I don't have the time to research the speed,drop and kids metric energy of arrows shot from long bow,recurve,compound and crossbows. Oh, I guess I should include a the shotgun , muzzloader and rifles should be included seeing New York state requires you to have a muzzleloader license. Which further fuels the minds of those hunters to lazy to look up this information before making public statement how shooting a,cross bow is comparable to a muzzleloader. But seeing the powers to be( a group one would assume possessed a certain degree of intelligence) have categorized the crossbows as muzzleloader you can't blame the hunters for following suit. So much for independent thinking.

LOL.. all I said is that some would not get it. It was not meant to offend anyone... just make the point that I made in the last post which is that those that don't understand are probably the hunters with those thoughts in their head. If it hit too close to home I'm sorry... it wasn't intended specifically for you.

[wolc123]

I bought mine last spring shortly after the announcement came out that they were legalized for the last two weeks of archery season.  In prior years, I would have started shooting my compound by then but my doctor had me on a maximum lift of 10 pounds as I was recovering from some major surgery.  The timing on the Crossbow was therefore perfect for me.  Without it, I would have had one less buck in the freezer for sure last year.   I am being conservative when I say (repeatedly) that the Crossbow is 10 times more effective on deer than a compound in my hands at least.  

 

I almost agree with NY state classifying it legally as a muzzleloader in that respect.    The accuracy I can attain on the range with my scoped crossbow is better than what I can do with my open-sight, side lock, 50 caliber, cap and ball, muzzleloader.   Each has approximately a 50 yard effective range.   The crossbow has two big advantages over that weapon however - silence and "discharge" dependability.  I was never able to kill a deer with that old sidelock, but have enjoyed considerable success with my modern, scoped, in-line ML.   That one also extends my effective range out to about 125 yards.  

 

It would be hard for anyone to argue that a crossbow would not increase an average hunter's odds of making a clean kill on a deer during archery season.  What's wrong with that?   I agree with Doc that the odds would be even better with a rifle but that argument doesn't hold water because deer go nocturnal shortly after hearing the first gunshots during gun season.  I struggle a lot with the mentality of wanting to "challenge" oneself while increasing the odds of a wounded deer.  If you want a "challenge", there are far better sports to do it with than hunting.  Golf and bowling come to mind. 

 

Finally, all this bickering is small stuff and when it comes right down to it, the weapon you use to kill your deer does not matter all that much.  Every deer is going to end up right where JC wants them to go.   Good luck to all on the Crossbow opener this Saturday, and don't forget He who died on The Cross long ago for all of us.   Keeping things in order with Him is way more important than any of this hunting stuff.    

[jjb4900]

 I struggle a lot with the mentality of wanting to "challenge" oneself while increasing the odds of a wounded deer.  If you want a "challenge", there are far better sports to do it with than hunting.  Golf and bowling come to mind. 

I don't understand why you equate ones "challenging" themselves with wounding deer.....to most, the challenge has little to anything to do with the shot, it's about not always getting that shot for a variety of reasons, and when you finally do get it, it's all the more sweeter, maybe the challenge is killing a deer at 10 yards instead of 60....and with your rationale of JC having the final say of what happens with a deer's demise, are you suggesting that he makes these hunters wound the deer for one reason or another? why doesn't he just guide their arrow to a clean miss?? I don't get it. Does he punish nonbelievers by making things go wrong? can a guy blame him when things go bad instead of questioning what they themselves did wrong? he obviously wanted that deer wounded for a reason......so many questions........oh, and did you not challenge yourself last year with a shot that, as you said, was further then your effective range? and as you said, worked out because JC guided your arrow...why can't that work for everyone else with the weapon of their choice?

Edited November 6, 2015 by jjb4900

[BigVal]

I challenged myself to become very efficient with a compound bow,not to hope I make a good shot. If you want to use a crossbow so be it, I don't see the 10x more effective angle but in the hands of someone who is not a very very proficient shooter with a compound, yes it would be more effective. Just don't forget that just because it has a trigger it means you can take the shots you can with a firearm. Because you can't.

Edited November 6, 2015 by BigVal

[SteveB]

Comparing apples to apples it isn't any more effective - certainly not by 10.

Compare the IBO scores where compound's shoot the same course as xbows.

Wolc thinks his limitations and lack of skills are everyone's.

[wolc123]

Why does JC allow deer to be wounded?     Wounding a deer is a good way to make a better hunter.   It is a lot easier learning lessons "the hard way", than from the testimony of others.    The woundings don't seem to bother some archers too much.  How many have reported multiple strikings and misses on this site alone this season?    Personally, I would get on those more who report clean misses as they are further from the mark and therefore have more to learn.   Why does everyone let them off the hook so easily?   Honestly though, I cant get on them too bad because I continued to hunt when I had a clean miss, only stopping for the year when I got a clean kill or wounded one that I did not recover no matter how "superficial" the wound.   

 

JC has his schedule and we have ours and seldom do they coincide.  More often than not, a little patience is required on our parts.  He will always turn things for good to those who love him and accept his grace.   I have had big bucks delivered in less than 5 minutes of my asking and I have had some rough seasons where I came up empty handed.   With every kill, it gets clearer to me who is in full control.   Sometimes I am the one pulling the trigger, but always, He is the one who provides.            

[grampy]

As for me? I'm going to put my compound down, pick up my crossbow, and go out and hunt Saturday through Wednesday. I don't feel it will make me less of a hunter.

[jjb4900]

my only complaint is not making the Archery Course mandatory for the crossbow......why should someone get a free pass into the Archery Season? The majority of guys have paid their dues, why not the next guy?

Edited November 6, 2015 by jjb4900

[jjb4900]

Why does JC allow deer to be wounded?     Wounding a deer is a good way to make a better hunter.   It is a lot easier learning lessons "the hard way", than from the testimony of others.    The woundings don't seem to bother some archers too much.  How many have reported multiple strikings and misses on this site alone this season?    Personally, I would get on those more who report clean misses as they are further from the mark and therefore have more to learn.   Why does everyone let them off the hook so easily?   Honestly though, I cant get on them too bad because I continued to hunt when I had a clean miss, only stopping for the year when I got a clean kill or wounded one that I did not recover no matter how "superficial" the wound.   

 

JC has his schedule and we have ours and seldom do they coincide.  More often than not, a little patience is required on our parts.  He will always turn things for good to those who love him and accept his grace.   I have had big bucks delivered in less than 5 minutes of my asking and I have had some rough seasons where I came up empty handed.   With every kill, it gets clearer to me who is in full control.   Sometimes I am the one pulling the trigger, but always, He is the one who provides.            

ok, so then he doesn't have a say with EVERY deer....there are some days he has more important stuff to worry about?

[wolc123]

That is probably one of the biggest misconceptions out there: that He is "limited" in some way.  Look above and tell me where the sky ends.   Forever is real and He is right at the center of it.   He knows where every sparrow falls.     

[SteveB]

And yet he missed the kids with cancer - while getting you a deer.

[raymerlo]

Keep asking for more regulation,step back and look at what you have now,at the rate we are going we will need a lawyer in the stand with us,also watch what you say on this site,it's not just hunters reading here

[shawnhu]

That is probably one of the biggest misconceptions out there: that He is "limited" in some way. Look above and tell me where the sky ends. Forever is real and He is right at the center of it. He knows where every sparrow falls.

If there's a forever, how can there be a center? Oh, that's right, he doesn't follow any of that logical stuff.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Jmny]

I agree completely with jjb. The only reason the crossbow hunters,are getting a free pass( don't have to complete the archery course) is the fault of those that made the law. Here is a scenario that has no factual backing, just a product of my vivid imagination.

The powers to be while contemplating the use of crossbows for deer hunting(which was becoming extremely obvious) with so many other states adopting the use of crossbows. Sat around figuring the most profitable way to including the crossbow in eligible weapons of use for deer hunting?

1)Any gun hunter that had the desire to use a muzzleloader had already purchased a muzzleloader permit.

2) The majority of new crossbow hunters will be bow hunters that have already purchased an annual archery permit.

3) So, if we classify the crossbow as a muzzleloader, the state will profit from those bow hunters that would need to purchase the muzzleloader stamp in additional to the archery stamp.

Laugh, I don't know for sure, but how many other states that allow the use of crossbows require a muzzleloader permit. In my research I found that Pennsylvania considers it a bow, eligible for the entire archery season. (By the way, it only about $130-140 for non resident deer hunting license with archery stamp.) Will be looking into this next year. Hunted Ohio the last two years.

As stated my scenario was a figment of my imagination. Only because I couldn't fathom what train of thought, would lead a person of sound mind and at least average intelligence to classify a crossbow as a muzzleloader gun. Believe one or two crossbows can shoot over 400 fps. Three hundred to three seventy five feet per second are more normal. As stated in an earlier posting I listed 5 compound bows that have an advertised speed of 350-366 fps. If you want to complain about something, use the kinetic energy advantage. More kinetic energy more pass thru shots. . And if you happen to hit a bone, better penetration. This should equate to less unrecovered wounded deer. This is the real advantage of a crossbow. That coupled with the fact some of us older and others with physical limitations don't have to worry about drawing the compound at time of shot. It is not my attempt to reason my use of the crossbow, to do so would be a disservice to someone that just makes the free choice to use a crossbow.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Jmny

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree completely with jjb. The only reason the crossbow hunters,are getting a free pass( don't have to complete the archery course) is the fault of those that made the law. Here is a scenario that has no factual backing, just a product of my vivid imagination.

The powers to be while contemplating the use of crossbows for deer hunting(which was becoming extremely obvious) with so many other states adopting the use of crossbows. Sat around figuring the most profitable way to including the crossbow in eligible weapons of use for deer hunting?

1)Any gun hunter that had the desire to use a muzzleloader had already purchased a muzzleloader permit.

2) The majority of new crossbow hunters will be bow hunters that have already purchased an annual archery permit.

3) So, if we classify the crossbow as a muzzleloader, the state will profit from those bow hunters that would need to purchase the muzzleloader stamp in additional to the archery stamp.

Laugh, I don't know for sure, but how many other states that allow the use of crossbows require a muzzleloader permit. In my research I found that Pennsylvania considers it a bow, eligible for the entire archery season. (By the way, it only about $130-140 for non resident deer hunting license with archery stamp.) Will be looking into this next year. Hunted Ohio the last two years.

As stated my scenario was a figment of my imagination. Only because I couldn't fathom what train of thought, would lead a person of sound mind and at least average intelligence to classify a crossbow as a muzzleloader gun. Believe one or two crossbows can shoot over 400 fps. Three hundred to three seventy five feet per second are more normal. As stated in an earlier posting I listed 5 compound bows that have an advertised speed of 350-366 fps. If you want to complain about something, use the kinetic energy advantage. More kinetic energy more pass thru shots. . And if you happen to hit a bone, better penetration. This should equate to less unrecovered wounded deer. This is the real advantage of a crossbow. That coupled with the fact some of us older and others with physical limitations don't have to worry about drawing the compound at time of shot. It is not my attempt to reason my use of the crossbow, to do so would be a disservice to someone that just makes the free choice to use a crossbow.

Possible I guess but from what I understand it had more to do with the hunter education courses and the requirements that the instructors had to teach a curriculum for a certain amount of time. Since no special course is currently required under a muzzleloader category, they could get people in the woods that way.  Just wondering if anyone has taken the archery course this year? Were crossbows included as a topic? (in an attempt to get the instructors their time? ) I would bet it ends up being included in the bow license and the bow course.

[CFHunter]

I agree completely with jjb. The only reason the crossbow hunters,are getting a free pass( don't have to complete the archery course) is the fault of those that made the law. Here is a scenario that has no factual backing, just a product of my vivid imagination.

The powers to be while contemplating the use of crossbows for deer hunting(which was becoming extremely obvious) with so many other states adopting the use of crossbows. Sat around figuring the most profitable way to including the crossbow in eligible weapons of use for deer hunting?

1)Any gun hunter that had the desire to use a muzzleloader had already purchased a muzzleloader permit.

2) The majority of new crossbow hunters will be bow hunters that have already purchased an annual archery permit.

3) So, if we classify the crossbow as a muzzleloader, the state will profit from those bow hunters that would need to purchase the muzzleloader stamp in additional to the archery stamp.

Laugh, I don't know for sure, but how many other states that allow the use of crossbows require a muzzleloader permit. In my research I found that Pennsylvania considers it a bow, eligible for the entire archery season. (By the way, it only about $130-140 for non resident deer hunting license with archery stamp.) Will be looking into this next year. Hunted Ohio the last two years.

As stated my scenario was a figment of my imagination. Only because I couldn't fathom what train of thought, would lead a person of sound mind and at least average intelligence to classify a crossbow as a muzzleloader gun. Believe one or two crossbows can shoot over 400 fps. Three hundred to three seventy five feet per second are more normal. As stated in an earlier posting I listed 5 compound bows that have an advertised speed of 350-366 fps. If you want to complain about something, use the kinetic energy advantage. More kinetic energy more pass thru shots. . And if you happen to hit a bone, better penetration. This should equate to less unrecovered wounded deer. This is the real advantage of a crossbow. That coupled with the fact some of us older and others with physical limitations don't have to worry about drawing the compound at time of shot. It is not my attempt to reason my use of the crossbow, to do so would be a disservice to someone that just makes the free choice to use a crossbow.

I don't know how many more license sales this actually gets them. I have always bought my muzzleloaders tag, even though this is my first year I have a muzzleloader. The fact that I get to shoot two deer during bow season was enough for me to buy the tag. I know a lot of guys who do this.

[LI OUTDOORSMAN]

This will all change but its going to take some time.Once we get some new class instructors who grew up using crossbows and its part of there hunting regime. I have found a lot of the current instructors are a little biased towards crossbows and dont really want to cover the topics fully as they were brought up in a state where crossbows were always looked down upon as a poachers tool or not something a serious hunter would use..We hold classes in our shop and I have seen and heard how some people feel about them and dont really want to cover the topic as the words kind of stick in there mouths.I even had someone tell me that "I was an archery instructor and I shot competition..bla.bla..and I could outshoot anyone with my bow vs their crossbow"..BS!!..But like I said in time crossbows in NY will be a non issue probably within the next 5 years..Whatever..go shoot your deer..no big deal..Have fun,,

[WNYBuckHunter]

 Just wondering if anyone has taken the archery course this year? Were crossbows included as a topic? (in an attempt to get the instructors their time? )

 

No its not covered, it was covered only in the gun course.

[Five Seasons]

I don't understand why you equate ones "challenging" themselves with wounding deer.....to most, the challenge has little to anything to do with the shot, it's about not always getting that shot for a variety of reasons, and when you finally do get it, it's all the more sweeter, maybe the challenge is killing a deer at 10 yards instead of 60....and with your rationale of JC having the final say of what happens with a deer's demise, are you suggesting that he makes these hunters wound the deer for one reason or another? why doesn't he just guide their arrow to a clean miss?? I don't get it. Does he punish nonbelievers by making things go wrong? can a guy blame him when things go bad instead of questioning what they themselves did wrong? he obviously wanted that deer wounded for a reason......so many questions........oh, and did you not challenge yourself last year with a shot that, as you said, was further then your effective range? and as you said, worked out because JC guided your arrow...why can't that work for everyone else with the weapon of their choice?

 

what's not to understand. he has very clearly stated that crossbows are good because people are lazy and they shouldn't have to work hard. It's the very reason this country is going to ****. people want things easier and quicker without having to work for it.

 

I've said it a 100 times. My favorite deer harvest ever was a doe I shot with a mz on public land down south. The challenge was the greatest I've ever had. New area/season/deer behavior, pressured land, all by myself you name it. I have never felt so grateful and accomplished. It's an amazing feeling and when hard work pays off.

 

I've shot plenty of doe on private land. I'm always happy, but this was different. For someone who doesn't understand this feeling, they'll never understand why we enjoy "challenge".

 

Edited November 6, 2015 by WNYBuckHunter
Edited for language. Please see forum TOS.