ANYONE SEE THE NEW NY OUTDOOR NEWS

[Merlot]

The DEC is saying no change in the deer regulations for up to the next 5 years, and the possible removal of the doe only reg. in some WMU’s.

That’s ok with me.

Guess we go with the flow for now.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Remember this can all be changed on a whim.  Again!

[Buckstopshere]

Remember this can all be changed on a whim.  Again!

 

Right, but not likely. It usually takes us to move heaven and earth for any game management changes. I am surprised a bit that the DEC was nimble enough to sht-can the doe only restriction in the Buffalo and Rochester DMUs for the first two weeks of bow season after just one year.  And that is a good thing! But believe you me, there was a lot of work behind the scenes. Young people, without a lot of experience, tend to think that government changes in all dimensions of game management should be made hastily..."Hey, that sounds like a good idea...lets try it!" 

 

[nyslowhand]

I generally have an issue with how the DEC interpolates harvest data or their infamous public surveys and propose regulations via them. But the 2015 stats from the doe-only areas were an "eye opener" for the DEC. Glad they showed a little humility and realized they were wrong after only the 1st year! They also mentioned in the NYON article(s) that they like to keep new regulations in place a min of 2yrs simply to get a better idea if or how they're working.

 

On the other issue of ARs, did think the DEC taking the middle road of "no action" was somewhat disturbing and basically a cop-out. Would have thought the majority of deer hunters that wanted the decision left in their own hands as to what buck to take might have shown them the squeaky wheel (trophy hunters) that lobbied for ARs initially were in the minority..Bewildering!??!

Edited February 21, 2016 by nyslowhand

[Doc]

I have to renew my subscription, i miss that paper...  but i did notice else where the DEC is "encouraging" hunters to pass up younger bucks, aka .... buck management they call it... haha  

And as far as I am concerned that is the proper way to handle that problem rather than legally jamming it down people's throats. I am a big proponent of the DEC taking on a very visible education campaign on ARs, and the taking of does, and any of those kinds of controversies. To often the first thing that everybody jumps for is some legally binding restrictions even before a decent campaign of jawboning has been tried. It's time for the DEC to stop taking the "we vs. they" approach to every issue and try a bit of working in conjunction with hunters. Not everything has to involve force.

[nyslowhand]

That was one of my suggestions included with my rant input to the DEC about doe-only restrictions and ARs. Let the hunters micro manage these issues, while providing all necessary info &/or education about carrying capacity or hunting mature bucks. Conditions and population diversity & density change dramatically within each WMU, it's insane to implement such broad-brushed legislation.

 

My pet peeve about the AR legislation is that the DEC has some how took it upon itself to get involved in hunter satisfaction. Guess what, you can NOT legislate satisfaction! 

Edited February 21, 2016 by nyslowhand

[Larry]

One of the reasons the DEC opted for no change. Was how would you like to go into the meeting to tell deer hunters in one of the buck management units that don’t have AR’s saying we are putting AR’s in place. Better yet how about telling us there going to shorten the gun season by a week. You imagine the abuse they would have to take. I would rather be in a fire fight at lease I could shoot back.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Larry

[Steve D]

 Four Season Whitetails quote: "Maybe even a short hound season for deer even though I would not own any deer hounds"

 

Trust me...the last thing you would want to see in NY state is a hound season for deer. I know it is popular in the south but houndsmen in NY are having a tough time as it is and hunting deer with dogs would more than likely end hound hunting for everyone in NY.

 

 

[Larry]

here how they came up with the no change plan

buckmgmtsdm2016.pdf

buckppt2016.pdf

buckharvestfactors2015.pdf

[Jaeger]

Well the areas that have them were decided upon for 2 reasons, pressure from clubs, and hunter influx from large urban area, the deer population there is no where near what most of what upstate holds..

Perhaps you're right, I'm in the north west Delaware county right on the edge of the extent of the AR's boundry, just across the street isn't.  Western Delaware county has a huge amount of brow tineless deer.  Hence, we have a lot of older fork horns.

 

I spoke to several local taxidermists and they really see it.  We have to let alot of older bucks pass (or put some youth onto them).

 

If the remainder of the eastern catskills has fewer deer (big bucks) and most of the influence is from city or big horn hunters then I guess they are getting what they want with the AR's and it works for them.

 

Still, it makes it a little difficult (and frustrating) to hunt our property.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Jaeger

[G-Man]

Perhaps you're right, I'm in the north west Delaware county right on the edge of the extent of the AR's boundry, just across the street isn't. Western Delaware county has a huge amount of brow tineless deer. Hence, we have a lot of older fork horns.

I spoke to several local taxidermists and they really see it. We have to let alot of older bucks pass (or put some youth onto them).

If the remainder of the eastern catskills has fewer deer (big bucks) and most of the influence is from city or big horn hunters then I guess they are getting what they want with the AR's and it works for them.

Still, it makes it a little difficult (and frustrating) to hunt our property.

I can understand your fustrations, but that is what high grading does when there is a large number of hunters 3 a side is shot leaving 4pt with no brows, soon you'll have monster 4 pt running around because they can't legally be shot. Imo leave all yearling bucks alone evendors if is a 10 pt... you always hear a spike can become a 10 pt. But isn't it better to have a 10 pt to start with? It will most likely be aq10 pt the following yer or bugger..no wait and see.. imo if you want a buck for meat shoot the spike and leave the 6 ,8 and 10 alone ..

[Tacti_Steve]

As for running dogs for deer, crazy... land is too broken up to get permission from all owners that dogs may run a deer through, that is the biggest challenge when running coyotes, it's not ok cause they are hunting if the owners don't want them there you have no way to keep them off as they are loose and you don't shock them if they cross a property line... I can see people getting permission from a small landowner on either side of a privately well mana gf ed piece and running dogs chase those buck out onto small propetris to waiting hunters... I'd hate to see the legal issues from that.. because it works in another state, averge property size and use as well as hunter density vary greatly from state to state let alone county to county..

 

Wow this thread blew up. I didn't check it for one day.

 

Yes the bear and coyote hunters have this problem but as they have demonstrated it is not impossible. There are also plenty of state land areas that are large enough. An agile approach would do something like require the dogs have a garmin TT10 or new collar so that the dogs can be tracked and called off the trail before they trespass. This is the modern day not our grandpa's hunting. We can use technology to do things we couldn't before. 

 

I've run deer for dogs. Grew up on it.

 

Running deer dogs in NY is crazy due to average parcel size of private property being much much smaller than in the southern hunt clubs. Since average parcel size is shrinking everywhere, this is creating even more friction in the South now.

 

There isn't a property we hunt in NY where we could run dogs without screwing up other hunters' and landowners' rights. Dogs do NOT know property lines regardless of how skilled the handlers are. I ran dogs on major size public grounds and in various hunt clubs that would typically control 4-8k acres of continuous land. We still had issues from time to time when a hot trail led dogs to neighbors - and these were organized hunts with dozens posters, handlers, and a hunt master leading it, and every single person had handheld CBs. Luckily, bordering grounds were all dog runners and common courtesy ensued both ways. That crap isn't happening here in NY. The only thing that keeps dog running legal for deer is the cultural values long instilled in that style of hunting in the South and where it is legal today. It doesn't exist here. Just like tracking deer and still hunting doesn't much exist in the South as a cultural trait.

I'm not saying it would be a fit everywhere. I agree dogs do not use property lines but we also have technology today that we didn't just a few years ago. I have never had a hound over 2 years old since the Garmin collars came out that I couldn't keep on the property I hunt. I hunt several blocks that are only 30 acres and the hound stays in them. Granted Raccoon's don't run as far as Deer.

 

Having lived in S.C. for a number of years, and hunted with dogs on a hunting club. There is no way that I see, that it could done without running into the problems, phade listed. When I want to hunt with dogs and I do, every couple years or so, I just go south to visit friends and family. Whole different culture and way of hunting down

there. And it works out fine for them as it has for generations. Wouldn't work so well in NYS though.

This is like saying it's ok for NYC to run NYS. They out number us and the culture is different doesn't give them to right to dictate how we hunt. We should be free to hunt how we like as long as we are doing it safely on on our own property, property we have permission to, or public property. Just because you or the masses don't like what I do doesn't give you the right to say I can't do it. The constitution say I have the right to pursue happiness. 

 

Well the areas that have them were decided upon for 2 reasons, pressure from clubs, and hunter influx from large urban area, the deer population there is no where near what most of what upstate holds..

I have a very different experience. I hunt an urban area and it is overrun by Deer. Because it is so close to the village and surrounded by houses no one goes in there to hunt. 

 

 Four Season Whitetails quote: "Maybe even a short hound season for deer even though I would not own any deer hounds"

 

Trust me...the last thing you would want to see in NY state is a hound season for deer. I know it is popular in the south but houndsmen in NY are having a tough time as it is and hunting deer with dogs would more than likely end hound hunting for everyone in NY.

Yes houndsman are having a tough time. I'm one of them. But I don't push my hunting methods. I push conservation. Hunt however you like as long as it is safe. I don't criticize the guys out there that drive the crap out of the woods just because that's not how I hunt. I don't criticize the buckheads for how they hunt. I don't agree that its good conservation but you are free to let deer pass you by. I'm not saying anyone has to do it. I wouldn't. I don't need to. I kill enough deer without having to pay for another dog. But I should be free to if I want. 

 

I can understand your fustrations, but that is what high grading does when there is a large number of hunters 3 a side is shot leaving 4pt with no brows, soon you'll have monster 4 pt running around because they can't legally be shot. Imo leave all yearling bucks alone evendors if is a 10 pt... you always hear a spike can become a 10 pt. But isn't it better to have a 10 pt to start with? It will most likely be aq10 pt the following yer or bugger..no wait and see.. imo if you want a buck for meat shoot the spike and leave the 6 ,8 and 10 alone ..

I agree and I shoot them all. Limits should be set on volume not physical attributes (other than male/female). Disease doesn't let the little ones go. Predators primarily prey on the young, sick and old. Shooting only mature healthy deer allows the predators to thrive nearly as much as not shooting any. In general I hunt for food, conservation, and sport. In that order. Sure I want that big Tom just like I want that nice rack. But I shoot the just year old Jake that walks by just the same. He's meat in the freezer. I'll save my second tag for the big Tom until the end of the season then I'll fill it however I can. 

 

I'm not saying that running Deer with dogs is the answer. Obviously the culture here in NYS does not lend itself to it. I myself wouldn't run Deer with a hound unless I found some significant advantage to it over other less expensive means. My main point is that we need an agile system that can respond to changing environments on a local level faster than every five years. In five years there could be the next Garmin collar (or insert your own technology here) that changes the whole way we hunt. The existing policies can very quickly become obsolete or even counter productive. I just hope that the people setting these ridiculous policies realize that anything can be changed. Even a no change policy. Even their career. 

[chas0218]

I can understand your fustrations, but that is what high grading does when there is a large number of hunters 3 a side is shot leaving 4pt with no brows, soon you'll have monster 4 pt running around because they can't legally be shot. Imo leave all yearling bucks alone evendors if is a 10 pt... you always hear a spike can become a 10 pt. But isn't it better to have a 10 pt to start with? It will most likely be aq10 pt the following yer or bugger..no wait and see.. imo if you want a buck for meat shoot the spike and leave the 6 ,8 and 10 alone ..

There isn't much truth to that. I have seen first hand a spike that was a spike for 2 years straight then the 3rd year he was a high 8 and didn't make it another year. Here is a photo of him as the 8, nevermind the little guy behind him. Either way that is the mentality that a spike will always be a spike. It just isn't true, as deer mature they will grow in antler mass. If you are that concerned with it take a kid hunting and let him/she cull the deer for you.

 

 

 

Here is the deer I shot this year 2 years ago.

 

Here he is this year. They get bigger just need the time!

Edited February 22, 2016 by chas0218

[Tacti_Steve]

I agree they get bigger and better the longer they live. I think what he was getting at is that AR lead to genetically smaller bucks through genetic selection. Another reason not to discriminate and shoot them all. I gauge a good year by the volume of meat in my freezer not the number of points my dog chews on. Spikes are just as good for his teeth as an 8pt they just don't last as long.

[chas0218]

I agree they get bigger and better the longer they live. I think what he was getting at is that AR lead to genetically smaller bucks through genetic selection. Another reason not to discriminate and shoot them all. I gauge a good year by the volume of meat in my freezer not the number of points my dog chews on. Spikes are just as good for his teeth as an 8pt they just don't last as long.

You say you gauge deer by weight but I have never seen a spike that out weighed a mature buck. A rutted out buck (in my case this past season) weighed 168lbs. Only saw 1 spike that came close and was the one above I mentioned. If you truly hunt for meat why shoot many small deer instead of many large deer. What you described is backwards thinking.

As nature works the genetically inept usually don't get to breed the mature does as they are ran off by more mature bucks granted if there is a high doe to buck ratio that might not always happen. If the mature deer in that area are scrub bucks then they will be smaller raked mature deer. Studies have shown that as all deer mature they grow antler AND point wise. Eventually those spikes and 4 points grow into 6 and 8 points.

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[Tacti_Steve]

You say you gauge deer by weight but I have never seen a spike that out weighed a mature buck. A rutted out buck (in my case this past season) weighed 168lbs. Only saw 1 spike that came close and was the one above I mentioned. If you truly hunt for meat why shoot many small deer instead of many large deer. What you described is backwards thinking.

As nature works the genetically inept usually don't get to breed the mature does as they are ran off by more mature bucks granted if there is a high doe to buck ratio that might not always happen. If the mature deer in that area are scrub bucks then they will be smaller raked mature deer. Studies have shown that as all deer mature they grow antler AND point wise. Eventually those spikes and 4 points grow into 6 and 8 points.

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I gauge it by weight in the freezer. A certain dead spike in the freezer weighs more than the possible big buck I might or might not get a shot at later. Plus I hunt all year round I get them all. I agree if they make it by my barrel they have a better chance of growing and getting more points. I am not one that thinks a deer rack stays the way it is. I completely agree the rack grows with the deer. My point is that I'm not a buckhead. I don't care for the rack. I just feed them to the dog. There is only one rack hanging on my wall and that is my first Deer I got when I was 17. Got this one last year. Only reason the dog didn't get the horns was I had to turn the head into the DEC because it was August. 

[fasteddie]

How did you shoot a buck with velvet ? 

[BizCT]

How did you shoot a buck with velvet ?

Either nuisance permit or maybe NJ or CT? Or down south?

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[Tacti_Steve]

How did you shoot a buck with velvet ? 

Nuisance permits on a Christmas tree farm. I usually take a couple each summer off that farm. Hit that one at 300 yards with a 30-06. During the season that is a shotgun only zone. 

[gjs4]

Did I miss something?.....because Nuisance Permits and antlered deer aren't a NY thing

 

Seems to be a thread of arguments based on exceptions from what (little) I read.

[chas0218]

Did I miss something?.....because Nuisance Permits and antlered deer aren't a NY thing

Seems to be a thread of arguments based on exceptions from what (little) I read.

I was thinking the same thing. Last I knew they food not slow the taking of antlered deer on nuisance permits. At least that is the way it was 2 years ago in Yates county.

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[Lawdwaz]

Did I miss something?.....because Nuisance Permits and antlered deer aren't a NY thing

Some nuisance permits alow the killing of antlered deer. Edited February 23, 2016 by Lawdwaz

[fasteddie]

Nuisance permits on a Christmas tree farm. I usually take a couple each summer off that farm. Hit that one at 300 yards with a 30-06. During the season that is a shotgun only zone. 

 

We get nuisance permits for Monroe County and the paperwork states "anterless deer only" . 

[phade]

We get nuisance permits for Monroe County and the paperwork states "anterless deer only" . 

 

How many antlerless deer do you know screwing up Christmas trees?

[fasteddie]

How many antlerless deer do you know screwing up Christmas trees?

 

I had a Christmas tree farmer / crop farmer give me a Nuisance permit for deer in Penfield . It was ANTERLESS only . 

 

The others were crop fields in Pittsford / Mendon for anterless only . They were not tree farms .