What's the difference? Baiting vs. Attracting

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It all comes down to being able to kill a deer or kill more deer, more easily. Call it what you will but like one said........99.9% of people that plant plots would not do so if they did not hunt.

[nyslowhand]

15 hours ago, Robhuntandfish said:

isnt one of the reasons listed by DEC to stop the spread of diseases?  That deer eating from exact same spot isnt the same as when they browse naturally?  dont know if I agree with that but think they have said that is one other reason for the no baiting law

^^^ Exactly! This was a "knee-jerk" legislation passed after at least one deer in (IRC) Oneida County was found to be CWD positive. It was determined to be an escaped deer from a high fence deer farm in that area where the deer were obviously fed piles of corn/grain and eating from & in direct contact with other deer. Cause for the DEC's alarm was at about the same time I beleive Wisconsin had a huge outbreak of CWD and all the environmentalist were waving their arms claiming it was the end of the world. NYSDEC thought we were heading down that same path with this isolated incident.

Strangely, you can feed (bait?) deer in Sullivan County after some residents were feeding deer during the winter months strictly for their love of observing wildlife and ended up in court. DEC ticketed the residents, took them to court and the court struck down the NYS wide no-feeding ban for Sullivan County. IRC, this still stands... Surprisingly this wasn't ever tested in other NY counties, as far as I know.

Like fasteddie mentioned... Put a stand in an apple tree, shot as many deer as you have tags for and it's all legal per the no-baiting regulations. BUT... if one of those apples ends up close to your stand that's 25yrds downhill from that tree, off to jail you go! Or.. time your corn plot to ripen during bow season and you can hunt it legally. BUT.. throw a bag of corn down before bow hunting, off to jail you go again! You be the judge!!!

Whether you're pro or con regarding this debate,  betting you have stands along or stalk near travel routes to/from food sources?

[chas0218]

18 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

you've never set up on an AG field?

Yes on numerous occasions and have 3 stands setup on or near ag fields. I have nothing wrong with someone if they wanted to bait or use plots there really isn't much of a difference as I see it. I find the CWD argument a mute point being that the deer share the same browse in nature and eat from the same fields whether you are baiting or not. I could see the use of a mechanical feeder being wrong in terms of morals that isn't hunting. But someone dumping a bag of corn is no different than sitting within bow distance of where the farmer dumped grain onto the ground or on a field edge that deer travel. 

I don't think you can just dump a pile of corn in the woods and expect deer to just come to it. I would think someone would need to scout first on where to put the pile. I haven't dumped piles of grain on the ground but have hunted AG fields where the deer frequent. Shot my 2nd biggest gun buck off a cut soybean field.

Edited December 6, 2017 by chas0218

[turkeyfeathers]

If I'm not mistaken someone post up a poll asking where your deer were shot   Hard woods, swamps etc   I remember seeing ZERO at the time shot in a plot.

[G-Man]

Simple reality is one is legal one isn't.

Bait can be replentished a good plot cannot..if to small it will be gone before season.. To big you can't pattern the deer using it.. It can fail due to excessive heat . rain .parasites. excessive browsing.........

.. Bait is placed it doesn't fail.. It can be time dispensed.. It can be replentished.. The game eating it has no bacteria to digest it so animals can eat and die of starvation with full stomachs( also the reason for no feeding deer. 

Plots grow and are nibbled on thus allowing The digestive tracts to adapt to it and allow for digestion.

[G-Man]

30 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Yes on numerous occasions and have 3 stands setup on or near ag fields. I have nothing wrong with someone if they wanted to bait or use plots there really isn't much of a difference as I see it. I find the CWD argument a mute point being that the deer share the same browse in nature and eat from the same fields whether you are baiting or not. I could see the use of a mechanical feeder being wrong in terms of morals that isn't hunting. But someone dumping a bag of corn is no different than sitting within bow distance of where the farmer dumped grain onto the ground or on a field edge that deer travel. 

I don't think you can just dump a pile of corn in the woods and expect deer to just come to it. I would think someone would need to scout first on where to put the pile. I haven't dumped piles of grain on the ground but have hunted AG fields where the deer frequent. Shot my 2nd biggest gun buck off a cut soybean field.

Actually hunting spilled grain inns field is considered baiting even if it was done by farmer.. Goose hunters get hit with this a lot as spillage may occur on oposite end of field they are set up in and its considered a baited field.. Same would hold true for deer hunting

[chrisw]

I don't see much of a difference at all personally. Yes you can say that plots are typically larger and not so spot specific but let's not pretend you can't pretty easily figure out where the deer typically enter and feed in the plots. Like has already been said, people plant plots to kill deer, simply put. I know quite a few guys that plant plots and none that haven't shot a deer in one of them... If they weren't effective noone would be spending their time and money doing them. I don't honestly care if you pile your corn or plant it and neither does the deer, they're coming for one reason. It is kind of funny to me that some people scoff at someone who shoots a deer over a pile of apples but praises the next guy who shot one under an apple tree covered in apples. It comes down to the same argument as bow vs crossbow, no winning or right answer.

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[YFKI1983]

Winter rye is best kill plot ever.They wont eat all of that. And it grows back.
.

You recommend winter rye over brassica and clover? I have about 1-2 acres. I was planning on doing half corn next year and the other half brassica/clover. Haven't tried rye yet.

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[GreeneHunter]

Attracting is Attracting !

Baiting is Getting Caught Attracting !

LOL

[growalot]

I suppose plots are attracting but not at specific times and when you do what I do with one hunter and 14 plots scattered all over the property hunting shot gun not rifle...It's tough to call a plot a bait pile or compare it to one...unless your psychically reading deer minds

[NFA-ADK]

Baiting is knowingly putting out a pill of food or minerals with the intent of drawing a deer to that exact spot and can also be timed if using a spreader on a timer.   

Attracting is usually done with plots that allow the animal to pick and choose where to enter and exit and has no specific location where all the food is pilled so the animal has the advantage of coming into the area at any time when the plots are present.  Plots can't be done year round due to winter, baiting can.  This can also be done with mock scrapes, urine, pre-orbital, scents like apple and even cover scents to mask you and attract prey. 

[genesee_mohican]

Plant 4 - 10 apple trees near a tree stand you'd like to hunt on your property. Once they mature that will be better than any bait pile you can come up with. At least while the apples are dropping.

[Rebel Darling]

I'm having a hard time seeing the similarity between sitting over an apple tree and dumping a pile of apples in front of a stand.  Apple trees run out or don't produce.  The produce section at my local Hannaford does neither.  My apple tree hasn't produced in two years, and I haven't hunted it in two years.

You plant a plot, you play by Nature's rules.  You dump a bag of apples, you play by Man's convenience.

I just don't see the similarity at all.

[growalot]

Also I haven't seen my plots  get  moldy...when we had goats mold was always a feed and minersl concern,even in the barn. I can't imagine e how moldy blocks or feed on the ground could get. REALLY BAD for ruminants.

[chrisw]

I'm having a hard time seeing the similarity between sitting over an apple tree and dumping a pile of apples in front of a stand.  Apple trees run out or don't produce.  The produce section at my local Hannaford does neither.  My apple tree hasn't produced in two years, and I haven't hunted it in two years.
You plant a plot, you play by Nature's rules.  You dump a bag of apples, you play by Man's convenience.
I just don't see the similarity at all.

There's definitely a few ways of looking at it and I get where you are coming from... But on a basic level, why are the deer coming to either? To eat. Does it make a difference to them if it's under an apple tree? Nope. And people assume that a bait pile makes deer unwary or lose their sense of survival, not true at all. Let's say behind your house is a block of woods, the deer come out into your neighbors back lawn to eat out of the bird feeder at night, you know this so you intercept them on their way to the feeder, back in the woods mind you. Did you hunt bait? Not technically speaking, no. But is it really so much different than hunting over a bird seed pile? It's a tough line to draw is all I'm saying. Now programmable feeders are a different topic altogether in my book...

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[Hunter007]

1 hour ago, chrisw said:

There's definitely a few ways of looking at it and I get where you are coming from... But on a basic level, why are the deer coming to either? To eat. Does it make a difference to them if it's under an apple tree? Nope. And people assume that a bait pile makes deer unwary or lose their sense of survival, not true at all. Let's say behind your house is a block of woods, the deer come out into your neighbors back lawn to eat out of the bird feeder at night, you know this so you intercept them on their way to the feeder, back in the woods mind you. Did you hunt bait? Not technically speaking, no. But is it really so much different than hunting over a bird seed pile? It's a tough line to draw is all I'm saying. Now programmable feeders are a different topic altogether in my book...

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Naa now why would anyone think that

[genesee_mohican]

4 hours ago, Rebel Darling said:

I'm having a hard time seeing the similarity between sitting over an apple tree and dumping a pile of apples in front of a stand.  Apple trees run out or don't produce.  The produce section at my local Hannaford does neither.  My apple tree hasn't produced in two years, and I haven't hunted it in two years.

You plant a plot, you play by Nature's rules.  You dump a bag of apples, you play by Man's convenience.

I just don't see the similarity at all.

I realize the limitations of the amount of apples a dozen trees will provide vs what you can purchase at a store. My point is: One doesn't need to bait in order to attract deer close to a tree stand. If you have ever hunted near a few apple trees on a year that they are producing well, you'd see the the draw it produces.

[erussell]

12 hours ago, YFKI1983 said:

You recommend winter rye over brassica and clover? I have about 1-2 acres. I was planning on doing half corn next year and the other half brassica/clover. Haven't tried rye yet.

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Rye and clover are even better. Brassicas die or get eaten unless you have a ton of it. Winter rye is the best plot ever. Cheap and grows fast. Rake, fertilize, throw down winter rye and drag a rake back over it. I swear it even grows with snow on top of it.

[nyslowhand]

Pretty sure the intent of this legislation is being lost in its' enforcement. Lot of grey area and ECO's interpretation of intent are creating all the confusion when citations are issued.The terms baiting, feeding and attracting are defined by the individual and can be debated for an eternity. Sadly the DEC and their ECOs have a different perspective also. BTW - I'm not for or against the baiting regulations, but have to assume the original intent of the legislation had at least some merit.... hopefully!?!

[Doc]

As I understand it, the primary objection to feeding involves the concentration of deer into areas that do not have the habitat capacity to sustain such concentration. Humans often start out with good intentions, but when success gets to be more than they can afford, they leave these artificially concentrated herds to fend for themselves in areas that are not suited to those numbers. So it turns out that people often kill the deer with kindness. I have read articles about suburbanites and urban dwellers starting to feed deer through the winter only to find themselves over-run with more deer than they can afford or want to feed. A simple, well-meaning act by one individual can turn into a menace for entire neighborhoods with disastrous results on landscape plantings and traffic accidents. Food plots, on the other hand, I would assume are longer term habitat improvements that do not start and stop as abruptly as feeding. The act of food-plotting just by its very nature is a more spread out activity that occurs in areas for longer periods of time and generally is not done over wider areas than those that use feeders or piles of food.

A secondary objection to feeding/baiting involves the promotion of nose to nose feeding with the food being drooled on, and urinated on, etc. in a single specific spot and consequently making it easier to exchange communicable diseases and potentially advance epidemics. Most food plots are of such a size that they do not concentrate deer feeding on the same square foot of space.

I am assuming these may be the main reasons for the different attitudes of the DEC relative to the two practices.

[nyslowhand]

Mostly agree, but JMO the objections are reversed, #1 being primarily the threat of CWD. DEC's 2nd objection is the feeding of deer during the winter months when they are basically on a starvation or minimal feeding diet. Theory, as was explained, was you can actually kill them by infrequent feeding during that minimal feeding timeframe unless you feed them routinely ALL winter. Weird as it sounds, maybe... I'm no whitetail biologist, so just have to assume the DEC knows what they are talking about, hopefully!

[erussell]

Plus deer feed might have cwd in it from animal parts used in the bait. Just like the feed that started the whole mad cow disease debacle  a few yrs ago. Plus there  are other  deer  disease s that are just as bad.

Edited December 8, 2017 by erussell

[growalot]

Let's add what state lands would look like if allowed...and animal illness that would occur in what ever ended up eating some of the concoctions I have seen on you tube.. Trying to make a better bait pile than the guy a hundred yards away.   Please don't pull out .... Well other states..blah,blah,blah...We talking NYS hunters different breed...Lol

[Hunter007]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

Let's add what state lands would look like if allowed...and animal illness that would occur in what ever ended up eating some of the concoctions I have seen on you tube.. Trying to make a better bait pile than the guy a hundred yards away.   Please don't pull out .... Well other states..blah,blah,blah...We talking NYS hunters different breed...Lol

Yes great point your deer population will be healthier with out people baiting with all kinds of crap  that who knows what is in it .

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, growalot said:

Let's add what state lands would look like if allowed...and animal illness that would occur in what ever ended up eating some of the concoctions I have seen on you tube.. Trying to make a better bait pile than the guy a hundred yards away.   Please don't pull out .... Well other states..blah,blah,blah...We talking NYS hunters different breed...Lol

 

1 hour ago, Storm914 said:

Yes great point your deer population will be healthier with out people baiting with all kinds of crap  that who knows what is in it .

Negative. First Whitetails are Whitetails regardless what state they are in or state hunters are in. A guy could put all the crap they want out and a deer will still pick and choose what they eat.

We make sure the wildlife have food to eat all winter long in this area. The worst thing for bucks and antler growth is the time between spring and summer when a buck comes out of winter in poor health. It takes them time to get their body back before anything goes to antler growth which in turns makes less antler.

I like the feeding CWD content because that shows you just how fake and messed up CWD really is. They say lets stop deer piss...Which has Never been proved to even carry the CWD prions yet they allow Grains and Hay to be brought into and fed to animals from all the CWD positive states across the country.  CWD has always been and will always be a political disease used by agenda and money drivin states.