Nyack "Coywolf " update

[chrisw]

That's what I quickly discovered. I've given it a couple of half-hearted trys at night. Apparently I'm a lousy coyote hunter!

It's tough man, coyotes are very intelligent, but when you finally do get one it makes it worth it. Just gotta keep at it and it'll happen eventually if you play your cards right. If I could give you one tip, always block off your downwind (pond, river etc..) or be able to shoot to your downwind so in order for them to wind you they have to expose themselves. I can't tell you how many times I've walked back out of the woods from a set and crossed tracks that came to the call, stayed covered up downwind and snuck back out, while never showing themselves. Their will to survive is unrivaled, they'd rather risk starvation than to put themselves in a vulnerable spot. Truly admirable critters in my book.

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[turkeyfeathers]

They’re Wile E. critters. 

Also have tried the calling them. And zero killed. Fox come in quick and easy, yotes not so much. 

Coy wolf , not so sure on this theory 

[Curmudgeon]

1 hour ago, chrisw said:

If you hang around the site long enough this same type thread pops up like 5 times a year, a lot of irrational fear with little to no facts to back them up.

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And, 5 times a year we have the opportunity to educate the new young hunters on the forum who get bad information from the He-Man Coyote Haters Club. Visceral hatred of a predator, just because it is a competitor is a demonstration of ecological illiteracy.

I like coyotes but have no problem dealing with problem animals. These coyote debates are never about them. However, every once in a while a problem coyote makes the news and the fear-mongers start up again. The rabid animal a few months ago wasn't even a data point. It was an aberration. Yet it started another coyote hate thread. Read the web page I posted early in the thread on coyotes in Chicago. The re are a lot of them and they have not hurt anyone. The reports of coyotes hurting people turned out to be dogs. That is a problem. For every coyote incident in North America, how many tens of thousands of dog bites occur? Where are the dog haters in these discussions?

As has been repeated over and over, killing wild coyotes because you think you are benefiting wildlife is foolish. It doesn't result in more deer, more turkeys, or fewer coyotes. It only satisfies a primal wolf hatred - something we should have left behind with our pastoral existence in Europe.

[Steuben Jerry]

There was a very informative thread on here a while back about the effects of killing an amount of the "home range" coyote pack and what happens when new ones move in.

That thread caused me to do a bit a googling and I must say I gained a new perspective on the subject.

I can't find it searching here. Anybody?

Edited December 14, 2017 by Steuben Jerry

[Robhuntandfish]

48 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

And, 5 times a year we have the opportunity to educate the new young hunters on the forum who get bad information from the He-Man Coyote Haters Club. Visceral hatred of a predator, just because it is a competitor is a demonstration of ecological illiteracy.

I like coyotes but have no problem dealing with problem animals. These coyote debates are never about them. However, every once in a while a problem coyote makes the news and the fear-mongers start up again. The rabid animal a few months ago wasn't even a data point. It was an aberration. Yet it started another coyote hate thread. Read the web page I posted early in the thread on coyotes in Chicago. The re are a lot of them and they have not hurt anyone. The reports of coyotes hurting people turned out to be dogs. That is a problem. For every coyote incident in North America, how many tens of thousands of dog bites occur? Where are the dog haters in these discussions?

As has been repeated over and over, killing wild coyotes because you think you are benefiting wildlife is foolish. It doesn't result in more deer, more turkeys, or fewer coyotes. It only satisfies a primal wolf hatred - something we should have left behind with our pastoral existence in Europe.

i dont fear coyotes or coyote attacks of any kind.  But the coyote population has boomed in the last few years for sure.  And if you notice the Turkey population has also seemed to decline.  And many of the guys I hunt with always say how they never see rabbits anymore.  I think I would look at it like they are a predatory competition to a hunter.  The more predators for the same food source lessens the food source (and eventually the predators of course) .  I lost a deer to coyotes this year and remember when you never had to worry about that and it wasn't that long ago.  It would seem the population is getting a bit out of control. Just as the south would say about feral pigs.  It is detriment to their eco system and would believe an overpopulation of coyotes will also do some damage esp to small game numbers and even deer if it continues unchecked.  

[greg54]

[Doc]

Probably the biggest "demonstration of ecological illiteracy" is the failure to recognize coyotes as being at the top of their food chain here in NYS, with no natural control other than communicable canine diseases and starvation. The only other population control is the so-called "He-Man Coyote Haters". As in all issues of hunting vs anti-hunting, there are damned few animals that die peacefully in their sleep of old age, and it is the lucky critter that meets his end with a bullet. A little bit of knowledge of the effects of rabies, distemper and mange gives you at least a small clue about the fact that these coyotes are not really the cute looking puppy-dogs that we see as family pets anymore than the deer are Disney's version of talking deer. They are animals that occasionally require some thinning. And those that do not get removed are likely to be relegated to an end of crusted up mange, or wandering around in circles being driven mad by rabies, and a similar end with distemper, or a lingering death of slow starvation. There are no wandering veterinarians with syringes of cures out there in the wild world to keep these cute little doggies healthy and not spreading diseases back and forth. So before we get all wrapped up in the anti-hunters world of anthropomorphism, let's understand that the coyote world could probably use a few more of those that we disgustedly label "he-man coyote haters". We can try to do the job of coyote population control or we can kill them with kindness by simply allowing them to multiply completely out of control because we think they are cute little fuzzy doggies. I have always believed in the role of hunting and trapping as we continue to rob the wild critters of their environment. If we are going to eliminate their habitat, I think we automatically inherit the responsibility of trying to keep their numbers in harmony with what shrinking lands we have left for them. Setting coyotes aside from that service simply because they remind us of Fido is not really doing them any favors.

[Doewhacker]

Tick borne illness is a bigger threat to animal and man than coyote's are. Yotes have done very well in city landscapes for a long, long time. People don't even know they are there.

[greg54]

Nice haul!

[Water Rat]

You can either love them or hate them , but there is no deny their adaptability. This guy managed to get on a rooftop in Queens , NY.

[Curmudgeon]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

coyotes..........with no natural control other than communicable canine diseases and starvation.........................They are animals that occasionally require some thinning. .......................I have always believed in the role of hunting and trapping as we continue to rob the wild critters of their environment. If we are going to eliminate their habitat, I think we automatically inherit the responsibility of trying to keep their numbers in harmony with what shrinking lands we have left for them.

Doc -

I can only assume that you choose to remain willfully ignorant. Over and over, discussions have gone on here about the science. It shows that coyotes to do not require thinning. Thinning only results increased coyote reproduction. It is an evolutionary response to being wolf prey. Stable coyote populations have older mating pairs with larger territories. They suppress reproduction by younger animals who cannot establish territories because of the dominant older animals. Kill one or both of the pair defending that territory and you get fractured territories with multiple, younger breeding pairs. Those coyotes are out there - not breeding - waiting for you and your cohorts to kill the alphas. Kill all you want. You only get more. For some reason, killing coyotes also results in larger litters of pups, though I don't know why.

You talk about eliminating habitat. We haven't eliminated coyote habitat at all. We have create a whole new place for them, including urban areas, by removing wolves from the east.

As far as the subjective arguments that there are fewer turkeys, let us return to the mesopredator issue - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopredator_release_hypothesis . I accept that foxes, skunks, raccoons and possums destroy more turkey nests than coyotes kill turkeys. Coyotes limit the populations of several of those species. When we discuss fewer turkeys - and this is both real and subjective - correlation does not imply causation. Turkey declines - after a exponential rise following reintroduction - were predictable. This is a stabilization of the population. The same thing happens with most invasive species. You can blame whatever you want. That does not make it true.

As far as fewer rabbits. Fooey! Rabbits, rabbits, rabbits. Rabbits up to here. I have the habitat, and more rabbits than I want. If you want more small game, do habitat improvement. Don't go looking for scapegoats.

[chrisw]

Probably the biggest "demonstration of ecological illiteracy" is the failure to recognize coyotes as being at the top of their food chain here in NYS, with no natural control other than communicable canine diseases and starvation. The only other population control is the so-called "He-Man Coyote Haters". As in all issues of hunting vs anti-hunting, there are damned few animals that die peacefully in their sleep of old age, and it is the lucky critter that meets his end with a bullet. A little bit of knowledge of the effects of rabies, distemper and mange gives you at least a small clue about the fact that these coyotes are not really the cute looking puppy-dogs that we see as family pets anymore than the deer are Disney's version of talking deer. They are animals that occasionally require some thinning. And those that do not get removed are likely to be relegated to an end of crusted up mange, or wandering around in circles being driven mad by rabies, and a similar end with distemper, or a lingering death of slow starvation. There are no wandering veterinarians with syringes of cures out there in the wild world to keep these cute little doggies healthy and not spreading diseases back and forth. So before we get all wrapped up in the anti-hunters world of anthropomorphism, let's understand that the coyote world could probably use a few more of those that we disgustedly label "he-man coyote haters". We can try to do the job of coyote population control or we can kill them with kindness by simply allowing them to multiply completely out of control because we think they are cute little fuzzy doggies. I have always believed in the role of hunting and trapping as we continue to rob the wild critters of their environment. If we are going to eliminate their habitat, I think we automatically inherit the responsibility of trying to keep their numbers in harmony with what shrinking lands we have left for them. Setting coyotes aside from that service simply because they remind us of Fido is not really doing them any favors.

I haven't read a single post where anyone suggested not killing coyotes, we're just reminding you that the sky isn't falling... Coyotes aren't at the top of the food chain, we are. Also I haven't read any posts that suggest their Disney characters that you can play fetch with as you imply. Nature regulates itself in more ways than you think, those simple little communicable diseases, mange, starvation, account for the death of a lot of coyotes. It'll be ok, Doc... Just be thankful you live in NY, where the only thing you have to be terrified of is coyotes.

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[greg54]

7 minutes ago, chrisw said:

 Just be thankful you live in NY, where the only thing you have to be terrified of is coyotes.

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And Mario Cuomo

[Ontario Buckhunter]

7 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

 

You talk about eliminating habitat. We haven't eliminated coyote habitat at all. We have create a whole new place for them, including urban areas, by removing wolves from the east.

 

Are you saying that it is a good thing that coyotes are living in densely populated areas? 

[Curmudgeon]

11 minutes ago, Ontario Buckhunter said:

Are you saying that it is a good thing that coyotes are living in densely populated areas? 

Sure, as long as they don't harm people it's fine. Let them eat cats.  

[Ontario Buckhunter]

3 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Sure, as long as they don't harm people it's fine. Let them eat cats.  

Ok, that's fair thank you for the honesty. I think we have such a different view on the subject that we won't make much headway.   

[Padre86]

On 12/14/2017 at 2:47 PM, Curmudgeon said:

And, 5 times a year we have the opportunity to educate the new young hunters on the forum who get bad information from the He-Man Coyote Haters Club. Visceral hatred of a predator, just because it is a competitor is a demonstration of ecological illiteracy.

I like coyotes but have no problem dealing with problem animals. These coyote debates are never about them. However, every once in a while a problem coyote makes the news and the fear-mongers start up again. The rabid animal a few months ago wasn't even a data point. It was an aberration. Yet it started another coyote hate thread. Read the web page I posted early in the thread on coyotes in Chicago. The re are a lot of them and they have not hurt anyone. The reports of coyotes hurting people turned out to be dogs. That is a problem. For every coyote incident in North America, how many tens of thousands of dog bites occur? Where are the dog haters in these discussions?

As has been repeated over and over, killing wild coyotes because you think you are benefiting wildlife is foolish. It doesn't result in more deer, more turkeys, or fewer coyotes. It only satisfies a primal wolf hatred - something we should have left behind with our pastoral existence in Europe.

I don't think there is any need for fear mongering.  Most of the coyote hunters I've met don't hunt out of fear but out of enjoyment and respect for the animal's prowess.  They are predators and should be viewed as such.  I don't want them eradicated, but I also don't think hunters should be shy about hunting coyote.

They are plentiful in number, robust, and very adaptable.  If someone wants to hunt or trap for them (as per local regulations), have at it.  Short of a state-wide extermination campaign, they aren't going anywhere.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Padre86

[Doc]

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 9:55 AM, Curmudgeon said:

Doc -

I can only assume that you choose to remain willfully ignorant. Over and over, discussions have gone on here about the science. It shows that coyotes to do not require thinning. Thinning only results increased coyote reproduction. It is an evolutionary response to being wolf prey. Stable coyote populations have older mating pairs with larger territories. They suppress reproduction by younger animals who cannot establish territories because of the dominant older animals. Kill one or both of the pair defending that territory and you get fractured territories with multiple, younger breeding pairs. Those coyotes are out there - not breeding - waiting for you and your cohorts to kill the alphas. Kill all you want. You only get more. For some reason, killing coyotes also results in larger litters of pups, though I don't know why.

You talk about eliminating habitat. We haven't eliminated coyote habitat at all. We have create a whole new place for them, including urban areas, by removing wolves from the east.

As far as the subjective arguments that there are fewer turkeys, let us return to the mesopredator issue - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopredator_release_hypothesis . I accept that foxes, skunks, raccoons and possums destroy more turkey nests than coyotes kill turkeys. Coyotes limit the populations of several of those species. When we discuss fewer turkeys - and this is both real and subjective - correlation does not imply causation. Turkey declines - after a exponential rise following reintroduction - were predictable. This is a stabilization of the population. The same thing happens with most invasive species. You can blame whatever you want. That does not make it true.

As far as fewer rabbits. Fooey! Rabbits, rabbits, rabbits. Rabbits up to here. I have the habitat, and more rabbits than I want. If you want more small game, do habitat improvement. Don't go looking for scapegoats.

Well, I guess in truth nothing really needs "thinning". Mother Nature will take care of populations through wildly fluctuating populations that go in and out of control strictly by heavy epidemics of disease and starvation. I have heard that argument from every anti-hunter I have ever encountered. I guess our attempts at wildlife management is indeed a complete waste of money since Mother Nature already does the job for us.

As far as that nonsense that hunting causes coyote populations to increase, that flies in the face of the experiences of ranchers that have  successfully kept coyote populations at bay to the benefit of their livestock. It truly sounds like some kind of study that was funded by PETA.....lol. I suppose that since coyotes manage their own populations, then disease and starvation must also be a major factor in increasing the populations in the same way that hunting and trapping does. At some point one has to call BS on that crazy illogical theory.

As far as the impacts of coyotes on other species, I am not as concerned about that as many are. But in spite of arguments to the contrary coyotes do reside at the top of the food chain here in NYS, with no natural predators other than the anemic and unmotivated efforts of hunters and trappers. And I think that the general opinion of biologists is that no species should be allowed to go uncontrolled ..... even if they do look like cute little fuzzy puppy-dogs.

[nyantler]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

As far as that nonsense that hunting causes coyote populations to increase, that flies in the face of the experiences of ranchers that have  successfully kept coyote populations at bay to the benefit of their livestock. It truly sounds like some kind of study that was funded by PETA.....lol. I suppose that since coyotes manage their own populations, then disease and starvation must also be a major factor in increasing the populations in the same way that hunting and trapping does. At some point one has to call BS on that crazy illogical theory.

I have to agree with most of what you have said except for this... as one understands the structure of coyote families it becomes easy to see the logic. What happens when ranchers wage war on the coyote families is not keeping populations at bay, but rather recreating a new family structure that has not yet established the ranchers livestock as part of it's diet. It won't take long before the rancher will have the same problem and will have to wage the same war against a different coyote family. Having said that,  if this gives ranchers some piece of mind then I suppose it is an effective response to their problem.. at least in the short term. But as most farmers will find out, they may win the short term battle, but will forever be fighting the war... and hunters will be doing the same.

 

[Rattler]

I would like to see some data regarding the estimated # of yotes inhabiting NY State in the 1970's vs the estimated # that exist here now.

I'm sure the current number would be a huge increase over the 70's.

How anyone can believe that isn't negatively affecting other game populations in NY State is beyond me.

All other factors affecting game populations in NY are pretty much the same.  The only major variation that I'm aware of is the yote population. 

Not only is the yote a major predator, it is also an invasive species.  What other invasive species has been allowed, even encouraged, to flourish?  One has to question the reason that is the case.

I support bringing their numbers back down to the level of the 1970's.  Anyone object to that?

 

[Padre86]

On 12/17/2017 at 7:35 AM, nyantler said:

I have to agree with most of what you have said except for this... as one understands the structure of coyote families it becomes easy to see the logic. What happens when ranchers wage war on the coyote families is not keeping populations at bay, but rather recreating a new family structure that has not yet established the ranchers livestock as part of it's diet. It won't take long before the rancher will have the same problem and will have to wage the same war against a different coyote family. Having said that,  if this gives ranchers some piece of mind then I suppose it is an effective response to their problem.. at least in the short term. But as most farmers will find out, they may win the short term battle, but will forever be fighting the war... and hunters will be doing the same.

 

I've heard that same idea discussed in other wildlife articles, but I have to believe that there is some short term benefit to coyote hunting and trapping for farmers and ranchers.

If you hunt/trap them over the winter, which is when the coyote season goes into full swing for many states, yes you may disrupt the family structure and cause dispersal in the longterm, but in the short term you are removing a few more hungry mouths which I'm sure takes pressure off any local livestock, as well as wild ungulates, in the dead of winter and takes some pressure off their young come spring time.  

I understand casual hunting and trapping has only a short term effect on coyote populations, but then again so do most other conservation strategies and hunting efforts for other animals.  In my view, the temporary consequences of coyote hunting doesn't mean its pointless or futile, it just means there is constant effort required on the hunter/trapper's part.  And I'm not sure how many people really view this effort as a "war" that needs to be won (I think that's more a stereotype than anything else); I'm sure for a lot of farmers and ranchers, it's just viewed as one of the many costs associated with their line of work.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Padre86

[GR HUNTER]

Just sharing. I came across this in the news yesterday and found it interesting as it was actually caught on camera. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/northfield-illinois-coyote-attacks-family-dog/ 

 

[nyantler]

5 hours ago, Padre86 said:

I've heard that same idea discussed in other wildlife articles, but I have to believe that there is some short term benefit to coyote hunting and trapping for farmers and ranchers.

If you hunt/trap them over the winter, which is when the coyote season goes into full swing for many states, yes you may disrupt the family structure and cause dispersal in the longterm, but in the short term you are removing a few more hungry mouths which I'm sure takes pressure off any local livestock, as well as wild ungulates, in the dead of winter and takes some pressure off their young come spring time.  

I understand casual hunting and trapping has only a short term effect on coyote populations, but then again so do most other conservation strategies and hunting efforts for other animals.  In my view, the temporary consequences of coyote hunting doesn't mean its pointless or futile, it just means there is constant effort required on the hunter/trapper's part.  And I'm not sure how many people really view this effort as a "war" that needs to be won (I think that's more a stereotype than anything else); I'm sure for a lot of farmers and ranchers, it's just viewed as one of the many costs associated with their line of work.

I believe I mentioned that it may have a short term effect for ranchers, but it will be an ongoing war year after year... I have nothing against hunting or trapping them in open seasons as a means of controlling populations.

[WNYBuckHunter]

On 12/17/2017 at 12:38 PM, Rattler said:

Not only is the yote a major predator, it is also an invasive species.  What other invasive species has been allowed, even encouraged, to flourish?  One has to question the reason that is the case.

 

They are not an invasive species. They have increased their range naturally over time and adapted in physical structure and their survival tactics to fit into their differing environments. We are witnessing the evolution of a species.

[Curmudgeon]

On 12/17/2017 at 12:38 PM, Rattler said:

I would like to see some data regarding the estimated # of yotes inhabiting NY State in the 1970's vs the estimated # that exist here now.

I'm sure the current number would be a huge increase over the 70's.

How anyone can believe that isn't negatively affecting other game populations in NY State is beyond me.

All other factors affecting game populations in NY are pretty much the same.  The only major variation that I'm aware of is the yote population. 

Not only is the yote a major predator, it is also an invasive species.  What other invasive species has been allowed, even encouraged, to flourish?  One has to question the reason that is the case.

I support bringing their numbers back down to the level of the 1970's.  Anyone object to that?

 

Your post started out with an intelligent question, then proceeded into an admission of complete ignorance (red text) about huge habitat and land use changes, and serious ( andreal) invasive species problems that occurred over the past 40 years, and how those changes affected all levels of the food chain.

The "only major variation" you are aware of is coyotes. Consider:

• The forest of the Forest Preserve are 40 years older. How you feel about how that is besides the point. 70 year old forests are now 110 year old forests. The changes are not as dramatic as the previous 40 years but they are significant.
• Thousands of farms - especially dairy farms - have gone out of business resulting in dramatically different land use.
• Many of those farms have been subdivided, resulting in access issues, but from a habitat perspecitive more important is the habitat fragmentation. Habitat fragmentation is good for mesopredators.
• Abandoned farms have grown into brush then second growth forest. NYSDEC has the Young Forest Initiative for the purpose of creating/maintaining game habitat. They claim other benefits but that is just PR.
• Where farms are still viable, farming practices have changed radically. No one waits until July to cut hay like they did in the 70s. It's May now. Wonder where all the naturally reproducing pheasants have gone? You don't have to look too hard to figure that out. They met the same fate as meadowlark and bobolink nests.
• If we are going to include waterfowl in the "game" discussion, there are huge numbers of sedentary Canada Geese. They are nesting all over the state. There were almost none nesting here in the 70s. How did coyotes impact that, except to eat a few. Do you consider them game?
• Continuing with waterfowl, the ecology of most large bodies of water are in chaos due to invasive plants, fish and invertebrates. The only waterfowl that benefit are those that eat zebra mussels.
• Deer populations are excessively large in most of the state outside the Adirondacks. How do you reconcile this?
• Invasives have changed the composition of forests, and ruined many miles of river banks. The only grasses growing in Harriman Park are invasive grasses, because the deer kill everything else. The same  is true of the park's understory, dominated by barberry. It's a vicous cycle. Too many deer eating native plants that native species need while encouraging invasives that other species cannot not use well.

There are all kinds of changes in the populations and distribution of species in the state since the 70s. Is the crash in northern harriers due to coyotes? What about the crash in Grasshopper sparrow numbers? Have hellbenders disappeared due to coyotes? Why have ravens, mourning doves and turkey vultures expanded their range to cover most of the state? Their range in the 70s was a fraction of what it is now. Coyotes? No.

Huge changes have taken place and all you can see is coyotes.

Calling coyotes invasive is misleading. The term is subjective. However, invasive does not equal introduced. A species that naturally expands its range is not invasive. Otherwise, mourning doves and red-bellied woodpeckers would be considered invasive species in Otsego County. Coyotes are filling a vacant niche. Something that is truly invasive is out-competing a native species for an already filled niche.