Same old issues..ar's or not

[G-Man]

Well now season is about over back to long debates... http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/mandatory-antler-point-restrictions-dangerous-precedent

[wolc123]

I was on the fence about mandatory AR's in NY state for a while, but now I am firmly against them.  The main reason, that I thought they might be worth a try, is that I thought they might improve hunter safety.  I thought they might decrease hunting accidents, by slowing hunters down and forcing them to be more certain of their target.   An analysis of data from the neighboring state of PA, indicates that did not happen there.  Hunting accidents had been in steady decline in PA for many years prior to the AR's, and actually increased slightly the year they went into effect.  Since then, they have continued the steady decline.   That is a clear indication that mandatory AR's did nothing to improve hunter safety.  

The second reason that I am now firmly against mandatory AR's, is they would prevent my killing of any deer on many seasons, including the recently ended gun season.  I had a buck tag and multiple DMP's, but I could not positively identify the sex or the number of antler points on the only deer that offered me a good shot this year.  I thought I saw a spike by the ears as I squeezed the trigger when it trotted thru a shooting lane, just 50 yards from my stand.   I was pleasantly surprised to find that it was an antlerless doe, when I walked upon the carcass.  

I am glad that I can still chase after bucks (and does) during ML season with my gun tag.  I had just a split second to make the decision to shoot that doe.  I never would have taken that shot, had AR's been in place.   I may or may not get another deer with my ML, but I do know for certain that it would have been a "tag soup" gun season for me if mandatory AR's had been in place.  I suspect that would be the case for many others as well.  Voluntary AR's is a great idea, that I have been practicing for many years (3 points on a side), but mandatory is a bad one, that I hope is never forced upon us.   

[reeltime]

On 12/15/2017 at 7:55 PM, wolc123 said:

I was on the fence about mandatory AR's in NY state for a while, but now I am firmly against them.  The main reason, that I thought they might be worth a try, is that I thought they might improve hunter safety.  I thought they might decrease hunting accidents, by slowing hunters down and forcing them to be more certain of their target.   An analysis of data from the neighboring state of PA, indicates that did not happen there.  Hunting accidents had been in steady decline in PA for many years prior to the AR's, and actually increased slightly the year they went into effect.  Since then, they have continued the steady decline.   That is a clear indication that mandatory AR's did nothing to improve hunter safety.  

only to you it indicates AR's did nothing for hunter safety. AR's had NOTHING to do with hunting accidents the year they were implemented.  The likely reason for the increase that year ( and I would be willing to bet you were NOT in PA that year for the first day) The reason why was they combined the season buck and doe that started on the traditional first day of the season the monday after thanksgiving.  I was there, I have many friends and customers spread across the entire state that I spoke with and I can tell you that you nor I have EVER heard so much shooting in a 10hr. span in my life! simple fact that so many shots will equal a higher chance of a hunting accident.  Between the safety issue and the shear fact that in the first 2 years they decimated the herd the state finally stopped the full 2 week inclusion and went to 5 days of buck only and 7 days of combined buck and doe.  And while it was never added as a tool to decrease hunting accidents it has done that as an added benefit because people do have to clearly identify their target.

 

The second reason that I am now firmly against mandatory AR's, is they would prevent my killing of any deer on many seasons, including the recently ended gun season.  I had a buck tag and multiple DMP's, but I could not positively identify the sex or the number of antler points on the only deer that offered me a good shot this year.  I thought I saw a spike by the ears as I squeezed the trigger when it trotted thru a shooting lane, just 50 yards from my stand.   I was pleasantly surprised to find that it was an antlerless doe, when I walked upon the carcass.  

I will call a spade a spade,  so you did not clearly identify your target because where there is no AR, you simply shot as it didn't matter because you had a buck tag and a doe tag.  so had you already filled your buck tag what would you have done? shot anyway and hoped the deer was a doe or a less than 3" spike? There are already a form of AR's in place in all of NY state but with the massive number of dmp's people shoot first and worry about the tag later. 

 

On 12/15/2017 at 7:55 PM, wolc123 said:

I am glad that I can still chase after bucks (and does) during ML season with my gun tag.  I had just a split second to make the decision to shoot that doe.  I never would have taken that shot, had AR's been in place.   I may or may not get another deer with my ML, but I do know for certain that it would have been a "tag soup" gun season for me if mandatory AR's had been in place.  I suspect that would be the case for many others as well.  Voluntary AR's is a great idea, that I have been practicing for many years (3 points on a side), but mandatory is a bad one, that I hope is never forced upon us.   

again there have always been a form of AR's in NY state,  all they would do is change the number of points,  I don't care what they do, I follow at minimum their standards but mine are much higher anyway so their AR would not change my style of hunting at all. Those that don't want them want to be able to shoot any deer that walks by them so I can see why those folks are against them.

 

[Hunter007]

My idea of AR is go hunt a place that has less hunting pressure .

I don't believe AR even work , a lot of the time  my guess is anything big will get shot out of season before someone actually   who follows the law gets a chance to shoot at it .

 

 

[turkeyfeathers]

I call no to AR’s. How many of us killed a spiker as our first buck ? Is that deer not one of the most special deer you’ve taken ? How long would you have waited to shoot one “ legal “ with AR’s? Betting some of you wouldn’t even be reading this right now as you never would have shot a compliant deer after a year or two and have had quit hunting. Newbie hunters are a big part of hunting’s existence. 

[chas0218]

5 minutes ago, turkeyfeathers said:

I call no to AR’s. How many of us killed a spiker as our first buck ? Is that deer not one of the most special deer you’ve taken ? How long would you have waited to shoot one “ legal “ with AR’s? Betting some of you wouldn’t even be reading this right now as you never would have shot a compliant deer after a year or two and have had quit hunting. Newbie hunters are a big part of hunting’s existence. 

I have no problem with kids killing the first deer that walks in front of them, so 18 and under no big deal let them shoot what they want. Add MAR's to anyone older 3 or more on one side. Even if the kid is 16 starting out for the first time gun hunting they can shoot what they want for their first 3 years.

1 hour ago, Storm914 said:

My idea of AR is go hunt a place that has less hunting pressure .

I don't believe AR even work , a lot of the time  my guess is anything big will get shot out of season before someone actually   who follows the law gets a chance to shoot at it .

 

 

So you don't want MAR's because someone will shoot the deer you want to shoot out of season anyway? What if they shoot it completely legal during the season would you still be against them because they shot the deer you wanted to shoot? We have practiced AR's on our property along with neighbor land owners and I will tell you it works. We have shot large deer every year over 130" most all of them 10 points 4.5 years old or older. 

[Hunter007]

1 minute ago, chas0218 said:

I have no problem with kids killing the first deer that walks in front of them, so 18 and under no big deal let them shoot what they want. Add MAR's to anyone older 3 or more on one side. Even if the kid is 16 starting out for the first time gun hunting they can shoot what they want for their first 3 years.

So you don't want MAR's because someone will shoot the deer you want to shoot out of season anyway? What if they shoot it completely legal during the season would you still be against them because they shot the deer you wanted to shoot? We have practiced AR's on our property along with neighbor land owners and I will tell you it works. We have shot large deer every year over 130" most all of them 10 points 4.5 years old or older. 

I was talking about on state land acually .

On private land it is different you have  enough acreage the deer never leave  you're probably anyway .

[chas0218]

7 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

I was talking about on state land acually .

On private land it is different you have  enough acreage the deer never leave  you're probably anyway .

If more people passed young bucks on state land you would have the same effect.

[Hunter007]

2 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

If more people passed young bucks on state land you would have the same effect.

I would be nice if it worked out that way not sure it does 

[turkeyfeathers]

There’s absolutely a few newbie hunters on this sight that are 30 plus that have taken there first deer this year , last etc.  How many newbie hunters that are older have asked us for advice as they have no mentor , nobody in their family has hunted before etc ? They’re the ones I’d be concerned about quitting after a year or two of fruitless hunting. Mentored kids have at least someone to keep them plugging away and interested. 

Side note If : I am able to get out tomorrow I’m shooting  a spike , broken four point   Who wants to be told they have to shoot an AR compliant deer who in many cases is an older deer that’ll taste like crap. There’s not enough bacon to make and old deer or it’s horns taste good. My freezer is empty. Let me shoot what I want. Everyone’s trophy is different. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

On 12/15/2017 at 7:55 PM, wolc123 said:

I had a buck tag and multiple DMP's, but I could not positively identify the sex or the number of antler points on the only deer that offered me a good shot this year.  I thought I saw a spike by the ears as I squeezed the trigger when it trotted thru a shooting lane, just 50 yards from my stand.   I was pleasantly surprised to find that it was an antlerless doe, when I walked upon the carcass. 

Holy crap, did you just admit to not clearly identifying your target before pulling the trigger? So lets add that to the already long list of deplorable actions in the field that you have admitted to. You are the biggest slob hunter on this site, and exactly the type that gives the rest of us a bad name. Shame on you.

[WNYBuckHunter]

27 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

I have no problem with kids killing the first deer that walks in front of them, so 18 and under no big deal let them shoot what they want. Add MAR's to anyone older 3 or more on one side. Even if the kid is 16 starting out for the first time gun hunting they can shoot what they want for their first 3 years.

What about people that dont start hunting until they are over the age of 18? Should they be forced to wait for a more mature buck? Not everyone has low pressure land to hunt. Those that do are the exception, not the rule.

[grampy]

I'd venture to say that the majority of hunters, experienced or not, just want meat in the freezer.  That being said, I "choose" to hold out for a larger buck. BUT, getting out after surgery this year, I passed up a nice two year old six point, hoping one of the larger ones would show. Even though he would have qualified with AR's, I normally wouldn't think twice about shooting him. I'm kinda regretting that now. You see, season to season things can change our perspective. So I will always advocate leaving the choice up to the hunter. On the flip side, that six pointer will hopefully be a shooter for my grandson or myself "next" year. But it was I who made the choice. Every hunter should have their own choice.

[chas0218]

31 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

What about people that dont start hunting until they are over the age of 18? Should they be forced to wait for a more mature buck? Not everyone has low pressure land to hunt. Those that do are the exception, not the rule.

What about them? As an adult I would think they would be able to do enough research or learn from their experiences to become successful more so than a kid. If an adult wants to learn how to hunt then all they have to do is ask around. I know a lot of guys that have started hunting later in life that I have taken or walked through the woods in the off season and showed them different things to look for. It really isn't that hard to walk up and ask someone to help you. I haven't had kids outright approach me about hunting unless they already do it. The ones that want to learn about it are shy and afraid to ask. Adults should be able to ask for help, and have more perseverance than a kid would. I know guys that have hunted 6 years without killing a deer but refuse to let someone help them. Not everyone has to kill something to enjoy the sport.

[OldBrian]

Been hunting deer in new York for well over 40 years. Killed  larger rack deer, smaller rack deer and no rack deer. All are "trophies" to me and I am proud of what I get. I have no interest in restrictions based on antler size.  

[outdoorstom]

Personally, I think a one buck per hunter for the entire season would be better than AR's. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

What about them? As an adult I would think they would be able to do enough research or learn from their experiences to become successful more so than a kid. If an adult wants to learn how to hunt then all they have to do is ask around. I know a lot of guys that have started hunting later in life that I have taken or walked through the woods in the off season and showed them different things to look for. It really isn't that hard to walk up and ask someone to help you. I haven't had kids outright approach me about hunting unless they already do it. The ones that want to learn about it are shy and afraid to ask. Adults should be able to ask for help, and have more perseverance than a kid would. I know guys that have hunted 6 years without killing a deer but refuse to let someone help them. Not everyone has to kill something to enjoy the sport.

Dude, you just dont get it. You are lucky to have grown up hunting private land where everyone agrees to not shoot bucks until they are a certain size. By all accounts, the land you hunt is not heavily pressured as well. The vast majority of hunters do not have the luxuries that you do.

When I cut my teeth hunting, I didnt have private land to hunt with the exception of my fathers 5 acres where I had room for one treestand. I hunted state land almost exclusively. I didnt grow up with a father or brother or cousins to teach me how to hunt. I had a few friends that hunted, that was about it. I voluntarily limited myself to 8 point or better when it came to bucks, and it took a long time for me to finally put one on the ground. I actually quit hunting for a season two different times because it was so frustrating. Luckily I had one friend that kept dragging me back into the sport when that happened. Once I finally put that buck on the ground, and then really started learning and being successful at getting myself into positions to encounter more, and more mature bucks, then the interest really took off for me and hasnt stopped since. Most people would not keep coming back for more frustration, as I did. Theres no better way to kill someones enthusiasm for something than to force them into limited success right off the bat.

Still to this day, I do not have low pressure, managed land to hunt. All of the private stuff I hunt gets as much, if not more pressure than any of the state land in the area. If you are killing 3 1/2 year old bucks consistently on our farms, you are doing very well. Hell, if you kill 2 1/2s every year you are doing pretty darn good. We have no ARs, we dont tell people what they can or cant shoot, and we still have truly mature bucks (5 years old or more) roaming all 3 farms every single year. Whether someone has a chance to take them or not is a whole different thing.

[WNYBuckHunter]

15 minutes ago, outdoorstom said:

Personally, I think a one buck per hunter for the entire season would be better than AR's. 

Absolutely

[Merlot]

9 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Absolutely

Agree

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Holy crap, did you just admit to not clearly identifying your target before pulling the trigger? So lets add that to the already long list of deplorable actions in the field that you have admitted to. You are the biggest slob hunter on this site, and exactly the type that gives the rest of us a bad name. Shame on you.

To be fair, if you have a buck tag and an antlerless tag in your pocket what difference does it make what is on the head when you squeeze the trigger? None in my book. He knew it was a deer 

[chas0218]

22 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Dude, you just dont get it. You are lucky to have grown up hunting private land where everyone agrees to not shoot bucks until they are a certain size. By all accounts, the land you hunt is not heavily pressured as well. The vast majority of hunters do not have the luxuries that you do.

When I cut my teeth hunting, I didnt have private land to hunt with the exception of my fathers 5 acres where I had room for one treestand. I hunted state land almost exclusively. I didnt grow up with a father or brother or cousins to teach me how to hunt. I had a few friends that hunted, that was about it. I voluntarily limited myself to 8 point or better when it came to bucks, and it took a long time for me to finally put one on the ground. I actually quit hunting for a season two different times because it was so frustrating. Luckily I had one friend that kept dragging me back into the sport when that happened. Once I finally put that buck on the ground, and then really started learning and being successful at getting myself into positions to encounter more, and more mature bucks, then the interest really took off for me and hasnt stopped since. Most people would not keep coming back for more frustration, as I did. Theres no better way to kill someones enthusiasm for something than to force them into limited success right off the bat.

Still to this day, I do not have low pressure, managed land to hunt. All of the private stuff I hunt gets as much, if not more pressure than any of the state land in the area. If you are killing 3 1/2 year old bucks consistently on our farms, you are doing very well. Hell, if you kill 2 1/2s every year you are doing pretty darn good. We have no ARs, we dont tell people what they can or cant shoot, and we still have truly mature bucks (5 years old or more) roaming all 3 farms every single year. Whether someone has a chance to take them or not is a whole different thing.

What do you think happens in the Catskills? Not bagging an animal every time you go out or every season is the way it works. I hunted hard this bow season knowing I wouldn't have a lot of days to hunt I got skunked with one bad shot that I don't know what happened. It happens not everyone is going to get a deer regardless of what laws are set forth. I have hunted state land for a long time along with private land, do I prefer my private land yes who doesn't? I have had success on state land but you need to do your homework, state land isn't harder to hunt just harder to pattern the humans that hunt it and use it to your advantage. Either way you are going to need to put your time in it isn't an easy sport and I think people that first get into hear about all the success individuals have then expect to be able to walk into the field and have that same success fresh off the bus or not.

This year was my first year hunting my own property I had no idea of deer travel, bedding areas or anything. Huge amount of unknown but I managed to kill a deer the last day of gun season. I hunted all season to get 2 shots about 80 hours total in stand to get 2 shots on a property I knew nothing about learning each sit I had. Not much different than what someone would have done on state land first starting out. 

[wolc123]

I would like to see "three bucks" for those who purchase a bow, gun, and ML tag.   "One buck" would be particularly bad for me.   I prefer killing and butchering bucks rather than does because they are always faster to butcher, with less fat to trim, and they come with the added bonus of grab handles for dragging, and nice reminders of succesfull hunts in past years.  We try to live a subsistance lifestyle.  With the two buck limit, at least (2) of the (4) average-sized deer that it takes to feed our family each year have to be does (or button bucks), under the current restrictions.  It would be nice if only one had to be.  Fortunately, the heavy buck that I killed with my crossbow this year provided about 2x the normal amount of meat, so I only had to kill one doe to reach our meat quota.   

As far as the AR's go, definitely a no-go since no one can provide any evidence that links them to improved hunter safety.  That would be the only reason I would give them any consideration.  As a pure meat hunter, I really like that having a doe tag and a buck tag lets me go full brown-down and pull the trigger whenever I positively identify a safe shot at a DEER.  WNYBH  may call me a slob but I have killed every deer that I pulled the trigger on (and recovered them all within an hour) over the last 12 years.  That don't sound too "sloppy" to me, and we have been eating very good thru that period.   I do love the trophy hunters though and I really appreciate them passing all them tasty young bucks. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by wolc123

[WNYBuckHunter]

7 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

To be fair, if you have a buck tag and an antlerless tag in your pocket what difference does it make what is on the head when you squeeze the trigger? None in my book. He knew it was a deer 

Its not the point of caring whats on its head, its the target identification part that bothers me. If a deer is obstructed enough to not know what it is before pulling the trigger, do you really know whats behind it, etc? I dunno, maybe I am just more careful than I need to be.

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

 WNYBH  may call me a slob but I have killed every deer that I pulled the trigger on (and recovered them all within an hour) over the last 12 years.  That don't sound too "sloppy" to me, and we have been eating very good thru that period.

Being a slob doesnt just mean you injure deer and/or not recover them. Its about safety and ethics. Taking shots at ranges further than you have practiced, taking low percentage shots (like up the ass), not completely identifying a target, etc etc etc. If you are admitting to crap like that, I can only imagine what you do and keep to yourself.

[Nomad]

It should not be written so " kids" get a pass on AR's as many new hunters aren't kids . I should be written so new license holders get a pass . Perhaps your first 3 years or so,of hunting your tags are marked accordingly .

I say this because at work every year we get guys who,take it up in their 30's and 40's . I taken a couple on hunts where they got their first deer .

My daughter is 27 and this year got out twice for maybe a combined 5-6 hours , our schedules just didn't line up . She has not yet killed a buck , and thereby is exempt  from the farms rules on buck size .

Having it aged based would hurt our numbers .