I sinned......

[Doc]

18 hours ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

Lol what!? How in the hell can you not still see pretty damn well at 30 mins past. Unless your down in some bottom loaded with pines, you should still be able to see 100 yards or more depending on terrain. Almost every other state out there is 30 min past sunset, with very little if no problems because of it. Laws don’t fix stupid people. So for the rest of us who have a brain and are normal people can easily distinguish what’s dark and what’s not. Sunset is not dark, period. There’s still plenty of light left at 30 min past to make good clean kills. The range at which those kills can be made will vary from location to location, but you can still see damn good at 30 min past.

 

 

Hunting safety laws are not written for specific locations, forest foliage content, or certain levels of intelligence or eyesight. If you have not encountered plenty of times when visibility was inadequate 1/2 hour outside of current NYS legal shooting hours then that tells me that you are not really very particular as to whether you can see your target and all that is going on behind the target. And by the way, seeing pretty well is not the standard that I want anyone using that is hunting around me.

You people seem to think the standard of safe shooting light should be whether you can make out your crosshairs and the outline of the deer or not. Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is  a lot more than that that you have to be aware of before you touch off that trigger. Apparently there are some aspects of your hunter training course that didn't really take.

And for those that rely on the fact that other states have extended shooting hours, understand that because we do not go in lockstep with the most reckless of states does not mean that we are wrong and they are right.

[Adkhunter1590]

Why are there so many wussy cry baby pansys in this state? You people do realize the vast majority of states go by the 30 min before and after rule and I have yet to hear or any state thinking of changing it because of people being shot outside hours. The few times it’s happened in this state proves nothing other than what anyone who’s spent a lot of time hunting in the West, that east coast hunters are generally much less skilled or knowledgeable as western hunters. I’ve guided, so I know damn well what kind of hunters come from here, and trust me, they don’t paint a pretty picture for NY.
I’d love to hear how there could possibly be so many “reckless” states yet the news isn’t covered in deaths from hunters shooting 19 mins past sunset. If this were a serious problem, the world would know about it. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, a handful of deaths over the course of a couple decades does not even cause a blip on the radar for important issues.

And please spare me the disappointed parent lectures, I sleep just fine and look at myself in the mirror with a smile every day. Someday you people will pull your heads from the sand and realize there’s much bigger issues in the world than someone shooting a few mins past sunset. The fact that you think it’s reckless or dangerous doesn’t mean squat, you and my mother had the same concerns about my teenage self owing a motorcycle that did 200mph. Should we outlaw street bikes now to?

[Doc]

Ha-ha....It is funny to have somebody thumping their chest over how manly it is to be an idiot regarding safety. I already related the experience that I had with some goofball that incorrectly felt he had the right to determine safe shooting light for himself. So it is going to take a whole lot more than mere name-calling to ever change my mind on the subject.

Regarding your concerns about parenting, I really don't get the relevancy, but that sounds like a whole different subject regarding some maternal issues that I would just as soon mot get into.

[landtracdeerhunter]

 The key to enforcement of the law is for citizens to report those that break it. Just the threat of getting caught should deter some that break it.  For the few others that insist on shooting deer after hours; a nice reward $ could be an answer to deter a few more.

 

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, landtracdeerhunter said:

 The key to enforcement of the law is for citizens to report those that break it. Just the threat of getting caught should deter some that break it.  For the few others that insist on shooting deer after hours; a nice reward $ could be an answer to deter a few more.

 

As has been pointed out, it is very hard to catch these birds to turn them in. You can hear it any opening day of any gun season. Shots going off somewhere in the valley, often they happen even when it is still dark. Finding someone under those circumstances is darn near impossible even when the shots are in close. These characters believe that they are above the law and have nothing but total disdain for anyone who shows some concern over safety in hunting situations. You see it here on this forum. Anybody raises issues of safety, and they are deemed to be "wussy cry baby pansies". That is the mentality that you are dealing with. I don't know how, but the only way to stop this sort of thing is to find these attitudes during the hunter safety training courses and either straightening out their thinking right there or denying their certification.  That is where you have a chance at straightening out these weird attitudes about hunter safety.

[chas0218]

 The key to enforcement of the law is for citizens to report those that break it. Just the threat of getting caught should deter some that break it.  For the few others that insist on shooting deer after hours; a nice reward $ could be an answer to deter a few more.  

 

I can hear the call now, "I'd like to report shots after sunset. My neighbor just shot."

"How do you know who it was?"

"Because the shots came from that direction"

phone hangs up.

 

How do you know who shot after dark?

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

[stubborn1VT]

So NY is the only state that takes safety seriously? C'mon.  I may not agree with all his bravado and chest thumping, he does make some good points.  That half hour doesn't make that much difference.  The shooting accidents I hear about are well past shooting light.  True outlaws are going to shoot what they want, when they want.  

I hunt in Vermont, and I have seen times when it is quite dark before sunrise.  The law says it is legal to shoot half an hour before sunrise.  It doesn't say I must shoot.  I use a little common sense.  

I don't get the "holier than thou" attitude over an unenforceable law.  I don't understand the infighting.  I don't buy the blind acceptance of a law that is out of line with Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, and Ohio. You can just shrug, but I don't see how it is different than speeding, using your phone while driving, or any other law that many people ignore.  

[Doc]

1 minute ago, chas0218 said:

I can hear the call now,
"I'd like to report shots after sunset."
"How do you know who it was?"
"Because the sounds came from that direction"
phone hangs up.

How do you know who shot after dark?
 

That is exactly the problem you run into. That is why the only way to fight this kind of attitude against safety concerns is to catch the bad attitudes early and try to change them before an offense occurs. And the best place to do that is in the hunter safety training courses.

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

So NY is the only state that takes safety seriously? C'mon.  I may not agree with all his bravado and chest thumping, he does make some good points.  That half hour doesn't make that much difference.  The shooting accidents I hear about are well past shooting light.  True outlaws are going to shoot what they want, when they want.  

I hunt in Vermont, and I have seen times when it is quite dark before sunrise.  The law says it is legal to shoot half an hour before sunrise.  It doesn't say I must shoot.  I use a little common sense.  

I don't get the "holier than thou" attitude over an unenforceable law.  I don't understand the infighting.  I don't buy the blind acceptance of a law that is out of line with Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, and Ohio. You can just shrug, but I don't see how it is different than speeding, using your phone while driving, or any other law that many people ignore.  

I think you have to admit that there isn't always a whole lot of common sense out there and you never know when it's your noggin that one of these guys that lacks common sense decides that your indistinct movement in the twilight is enough to warrant pulling the trigger. Common sense is a great thing, but we all know that hunting laws cannot rely solely on common sense. And yes, that 1/2 hour does make a difference. That is the time of day when vision becomes a bit fuzzy, and detail begins to fade, and images behind targets begin to become simply indistinct shadows and shapeless background. I have seen that that half hour is the time when cloud cover and over-story density and fog begin to have their most profound effect on what you are shooting at and the things beyond. 

Regarding supposedly unenforceable laws, there are times when skillful interrogation can result in arrests that you wouldn't expect to be normally made. At any rate, having the law on the books is a statement of intent. At some point you do have to state what time deer hunting must cease. You can argue all day what time of day that should be, but some limit has to be stated in law (enforceable or not). Frankly, when you consider the quantity of ECOs and how far apart they are spread, you have to admit that almost all EnCon laws are unenforceable or nearly so on a practical basis. Does that mean that we should suspend all laws and throw in the towel and only pass laws where enforcement is easy and likely? We make the laws as we see them needed, and we enforce them as best we can. That's the way legality is established.

[stubborn1VT]

I suppose we should just leave all matters of common sense and law enforcement to you Doc, as you seem to be the moral authority.

By the way, I have hunted half hour before/after for over 30 years, so spare me the lecture.  

[WNYBuckHunter]

14 minutes ago, Doc said:

I think you have to admit that there isn't always a whole lot of common sense out there and you never know when it's your noggin that one of these guys that lacks common sense decides that your indistinct movement in the twilight is enough to warrant pulling the trigger. Common sense is a great thing, but we all know that hunting laws cannot rely solely on common sense. And yes, that 1/2 hour does make a difference. That is the time of day when vision becomes a bit fuzzy, and detail begins to fade, and images behind targets begin to become simply indistinct shadows and shapeless background. I have seen that that half hour is the time when cloud cover and over-story density and fog begin to have their most profound effect on what you are shooting at and the things beyond. 

Regarding supposedly unenforceable laws, there are times when skillful interrogation can result in arrests that you wouldn't expect to be normally made. At any rate, having the law on the books is a statement of intent. At some point you do have to state what time deer hunting must cease. You can argue all day what time of day that should be, but some limit has to be stated in law (enforceable or not). Frankly, when you consider the quantity of ECOs and how far apart they are spread, you have to admit that almost all EnCon laws are unenforceable or nearly so on a practical basis. Does that mean that we should suspend all laws and throw in the towel and only pass laws where enforcement is easy and likely? We make the laws as we see them needed, and we enforce them as best we can. That's the way legality is established.

So use common sense and have a headlamp and flashlight on when you are walking in and out of the woods at those times. I do it. The only reasons I carry those things in my pack is for when I walk in and out and if I am looking for a blood trail. I dont need lights to see where my stands are, I have them on so that anyone that may be around knows its not an animal walking through. Its the same deal as wearing blaze orange IMO.

As far as shooting at those times, use common sense, and adhere to basic shooting safety.

Id love to hear your opinion on hunting predators at night.

[First-light]

What about this. Is it that most of us are using scopes on out guns that gather light making it easy to see the game and identify at low light situations? As I sit in my bow stand I know my limit is about 30 yards. Now when the light starts to fade and branches start to blend in with the forest ground I call it quits. I don't need that animal getting injured but it's only 30 yards away and I can clearly see it's a deer. Is it the optics that gives us confidence when the light goes dim? I know one thing you should not use your optics to identify your target. Thoughts no right wrong here.

[stubborn1VT]

Two reported incidents in VT this rifle season.  Neither was life threatening, and neither took place in a low light situation.  Looking back, the facts would suggest that deer drives lead to more injuries that shooting in low light conditions.  The fatalities that have taken place in recent history were from not identifying the target in thick brush, or 45 minutes after sunset.

I respect the fact that NY has many more hunters afield than VT, but all of us here managed to legally shoot 30 minutes before sunrise, and 30 minutes after sunset without killing each other.

[Jeremy K]

My pins don't even show up at sunset when in the woods ,I've left the tree early only to get to a field and realize it's still light out.

[WNYBuckHunter]

18 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

My pins don't even show up at sunset when in the woods ,I've left the tree early only to get to a field and realize it's still light out.

Do you have fiber optic pins? My sight just has a short strand on each pin (no coils on the side of the sight) and I can see my pins well past sunset, even in the woods during early season when theres still foliage on the trees.

[Steve D]

3 hours ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

Someday you people will pull your heads from the sand and realize there’s much bigger issues in the world than someone shooting a few mins past sunset

I would rather have my head in the "sand " than where yours is. When you play a sport or a simple board game there are rules to be followed and consequences if the rules are not followed. Like them or not they are not meant to be changed by the players to help the participant(s) win or enjoy the game more.

Hunting is no different.

[Adkhunter1590]

I would rather have my head in the "sand " than where yours is. When you play a sport or a simple board game there are rules to be followed and consequences if the rules are not followed. Like them or not they are not meant to be changed by the players to help the participant(s) win or enjoy the game more.

Hunting is no different.

 

That’s just it. Life isn’t a board game. There’s a lot of gray area. Board games are black and white, there are rules for every move. I think you and Doc miss the point completely. You two want to crucify me and paint me as some monster of a person because I’ll shoot a deer at 544 instead of 524. Go explain that situation to someone who doesn’t hunt and you’ll see the reaction. Whether or not you agree with what I do makes no difference to me in the slightest, but the flamboyant, over exaggerated claims that have been made are just that. Go ahead and shake your fingers and stick your noses in the air, your doing it to millions of people, not just me. If we number up the amount of hunters who are covered under 30 min before and after, I bet you’ll see you are the minority in this gray area

[Steve D]

4 minutes ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

That’s just it. Life isn’t a board game. There’s a lot of gray area. Board games are black and white,

Last time I looked Hunting and Fishing regulations were also. I got your point.  It is perfectly all right to bend the hunting regulations to fit your need. I am personally not trying to crucify you or make you out to be some kind of monster as you put it.

Seems you are missing my point which was:

 If you choose to justify your actions with yourself that is fine but someday you COULD get a ticket for those actions.

If it works for you have at it.

[moog5050]

2 hours ago, Jeremy K said:

My pins don't even show up at sunset when in the woods ,I've left the tree early only to get to a field and realize it's still light out.

Benefits of a recurve.  Not very accurate but can be shot inaccurately in no light too!  lol

[Jeremy K]

2 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Do you have fiber optic pins? My sight just has a short strand on each pin (no coils on the side of the sight) and I can see my pins well past sunset, even in the woods during early season when theres still foliage on the trees.

Ya, I'm shooting a HHA 3 pin. Its the newer style and it's no where near as bright as the old style.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

 

That’s just it. Life isn’t a board game. There’s a lot of gray area. Board games are black and white, there are rules for every move. I think you and Doc miss the point completely. You two want to crucify me and paint me as some monster of a person because I’ll shoot a deer at 544 instead of 524. Go explain that situation to someone who doesn’t hunt and you’ll see the reaction. Whether or not you agree with what I do makes no difference to me in the slightest, but the flamboyant, over exaggerated claims that have been made are just that. Go ahead and shake your fingers and stick your noses in the air, your doing it to millions of people, not just me. If we number up the amount of hunters who are covered under 30 min before and after, I bet you’ll see you are the minority in this gray area

Yeah the part that some of us are not afraid to tell the truth and tell it like it is is what bothers many. Many say just listen to opening day? Hell i heard just as many during the last week of muzzleloader.  440pm quitting time?  ya right, Not even close to being dark. By the sounds of it most hunters call 5pm to 510pm as closing time.

I agree!

[hunter49]

  50 years ago hunting hours in NY were 1/2 hour before & 1/2 after sunrise & sunset.

[fasteddie]

Here is an inexpensive after hours rifle scope 

https://www.opticsplanet.com/night-owl-optics-nightshot-digital-night-vision-riflescope.html

[chrisw]

Is it my bad memory or.... Oh yea nope it wasn't, it happened. I remember just a few months ago of someone very involved in this thread about obeying game laws and morals/ethics posting pictures of coyotes that were "struck by lightning" in the middle of the summer? If you can't ride your high horse 100% of the time then stay off of it.

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[Zuke]

Did the OP ever get those buck pictures?