qdma

[rutstrut]

I don't know why new york state doesn't get on the ball like other states with qdma. I guess you can't change the old mentality .people do not wanna try new things I've been practicing to qdma on my property for years and it's been working.other states didn't like it at first but now they love it

[WNYBuckHunter]

Its not a state wide thing, DEC suggests that people practice QDM (qdma is a group), but its up to them to do it individually. From what I have seen in my years of hunting, QDM has become much more popular in NY and the number of people participating grows every year. You are never going to get everyone to participate, as there are many people that just dont care about it. They are just looking to fill their freezers, and honestly, they have every right to have that opinion.

[burmjohn]

What type of QDM have you been practicing (what are you actually doing)? What are the results you see?

[phade]

As mentioned QDMA is a group...and the group has strong ties to NY. In fact, some board members (past president) are from NY (Dougherty). Certain parts of the state have strong QDM co-ops...obviously done on private land.

[Grizz1219]

The state certainly gives hunter the opportuntiy to follow QDM, by allowing the harvesting of does during Archery/Muzzleloader and most zones giving out DMP permits, the idea of shooting a small buck for meat when most adult does are bigger than a yearling buck is there, just some guys have that testosterone gain when they tell people "I got my buck" (even though it is a spike or small 4 point)... The farm I hunt, most guys shoot every buck that comes by if they have tags... sad.. but oh well.. as 1 of 15 guys on 1000 acre farm, my choice to pass small bucks does little or nothing to improve the bucks on that farm...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The state certainly gives hunter the opportuntiy to follow QDM, by allowing the harvesting of does during Archery/Muzzleloader and most zones giving out DMP permits, the idea of shooting a small buck for meat when most adult does are bigger than a yearling buck is there, just some guys have that testosterone gain when they tell people "I got my buck" (even though it is a spike or small 4 point)... The farm I hunt, most guys shoot every buck that comes by if they have tags... sad.. but oh well.. as 1 of 15 guys on 1000 acre farm, my choice to pass small bucks does little or nothing to improve the bucks on that farm...

If DEC implements aspects of their 5 year plan the does during archery season and ML season will be a thing of the past. all doe take will be by DMP. on the testosterone comment....take a hunter in the NZ with no doe permits and (amny areas don't issue them) and they only gun hunt. no bow ...no ML....spike or 4 point walks by...how about the 6 point? how about the 1.5 yo 8 point?....would you shoot any of them?

[steve863]

The state certainly gives hunter the opportuntiy to follow QDM, by allowing the harvesting of does during Archery/Muzzleloader and most zones giving out DMP permits, the idea of shooting a small buck for meat when most adult does are bigger than a yearling buck is there, just some guys have that testosterone gain when they tell people "I got my buck" (even though it is a spike or small 4 point)...

How is their testosterone rush any better or worse than of those who think it's more manly to kill only big bucks??? I see mighty little difference. We all shoot what makes us happy and gives us a rush and it should continue to stay that way. Implementing QDM promotes one philosophy at the expense of the others when they aren't allowed to shoot what they want just because QDM people think they shouldn't be. QDM thinkers call everyone else selfish, when the truth is that they are the most selfish lot of all. The DEC manages deer numbers, and will never manage them for the benefit of the QDM thinkers. No reason to. Deer get shot by hunters and that is all that will ever be important to them. You want QDM, you can certainly participate in it on YOUR land.

[nyantler]

It isn't manly to think that you need to kill a buck at all..thats the difference... like I've said many times before.. there are many many hunters that would rather cut their tongue out than have to tell their buddies they didn't get a buck.. and thats exactly what Grizz is talking about... somehow some hunters think they are less than a hunter because they didn't get a buck.. and nothing is farther from the truth... it is way harder to pass on a small buck than it is to kill it.

[adirondackbushwhack]

I would guess that most hunters would rather shoot a ten point buck then a spike. It is the odd hunter who would shun a ten in favour of a spike I would think. I like to hunt mature buck and pass on young ones every year. There are many who don't pass any buck and take the first one that comes along. They might think that if there is antler restrictions they will have less oppertunity to harvest a buck. I think they are right. Antler restrictions won't work in many parts of NY because poaching is rampant. The only ones who will be restricted are those who follow the rules while the poachers will have even more oppertunity to kill. A few years ago on the opening of gun season I wondered onto some private land just after sun up at Grafton state park and found 6 young buck hanging behind someones barn. There are other groups that I am aware of that shoot upwards of 40 doe and fawn a year where there are no doe tags and only slow down when the deer numbers decline. I believe that if the state would stop the poaching there would be added oppertunity for all of us, for both those of us who prefer mature buck and those who shoot any buck. But, the state is not interested in stopping the poaching and until they really go after the poachers I am one mature deer hunter who will not want to support antler restrictions. Antler restrictions are only going to benefit the poachers.

[nyantler]

Although poaching is an issue... nobody kills more yearling bucks than legal hunters.. poachers don't even come close.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Although poaching is an issue... nobody kills more yearling bucks than legal hunters.. poachers don't even come close.

I can't say if you are right or not I don't know of any studies on the subject.

[biggamefish]

It isn't manly to think that you need to kill a buck at all..thats the difference... like I've said many times before.. there are many many hunters that would rather cut their tongue out than have to tell their buddies they didn't get a buck.. and thats exactly what Grizz is talking about... somehow some hunters think they are less than a hunter because they didn't get a buck.. and nothing is farther from the truth... it is way harder to pass on a small buck than it is to kill it.

Not to mention that the old does are just as wary as those big old bucks.

[Localqdm]

I would guess that most hunters would rather shoot a ten point buck then a spike. It is the odd hunter who would shun a ten in favour of a spike I would think. I like to hunt mature buck and pass on young ones every year. There are many who don't pass any buck and take the first one that comes along. They might think that if there is antler restrictions they will have less oppertunity to harvest a buck. I think they are right. Antler restrictions won't work in many parts of NY because poaching is rampant. The only ones who will be restricted are those who follow the rules while the poachers will have even more oppertunity to kill. A few years ago on the opening of gun season I wondered onto some private land just after sun up at Grafton state park and found 6 young buck hanging behind someones barn. There are other groups that I am aware of that shoot upwards of 40 doe and fawn a year where there are no doe tags and only slow down when the deer numbers decline. I believe that if the state would stop the poaching there would be added oppertunity for all of us, for both those of us who prefer mature buck and those who shoot any buck. But, the state is not interested in stopping the poaching and until they really go after the poachers I am one mature deer hunter who will not want to support antler restrictions. Antler restrictions are only going to benefit the poachers.

I think you are on to something. And I agree w/nyantler, we hunters shoot more of them. However, all of the bucks shot by poachers (and does too) are removed oportunities for the legal guy. I do think poaching is a much bigger problem here in NY than the midwest, just my opinion. I've lived in OH and IN and NY. The opportunity seems much greater here because of the habitat here and the easy penalties. Think about it, if someone jacks the only 120 3yr old around because everyone knows about the deer and the smaller fields and numerous back roads here make it possible, it has far greater impact than out west.

[biggamefish]

It isn't manly to think that you need to kill a buck at all..thats the difference... like I've said many times before.. there are many many hunters that would rather cut their tongue out than have to tell their buddies they didn't get a buck.. and thats exactly what Grizz is talking about... somehow some hunters think they are less than a hunter because they didn't get a buck.. and nothing is farther from the truth... it is way harder to pass on a small buck than it is to kill it.

I think you are right but those old does are just as wary as those big old bucks.

I also think that you should be able to choose what you shoot and not have someone

tell you what you can or can't shoot. How would everybody like it if they said

that you no longer can hunt with a compound crossbow or rifle shotgun or in line muzzel loader.There are some that would love it but the majority would have a fit. Why should anybody be able to tell us what we can or can't take it should be our choice.

[SteveB]

I don't know why new york state doesn't get on the ball like other states with qdma. I guess you can't change the old mentality .people do not wanna try new things I've been practicing to qdma on my property for years and it's been working.other states didn't like it at first but now they love it

What states do mandatory qdma (qdm)?

Can't see how that is possible.

[nyantler]

What states do mandatory qdma (qdm)?

Can't see how that is possible.

I don't think there are any states that have mandatory qdma.. just antler restrictions... mostly because you can't force guys to enhance their land. or even shoot "x" amount of does.. you can only lead the horses to water you can't make them drink. Education on proper deer management would far better serve the concept of QDM than mandatory rules.

[nyantler]

I can't say if you are right or not I don't know of any studies on the subject.

Just look at the total number of bucks killed each year by all hunters and then look at the percentage of those deer that are young bucks... poacher numbers are far less than the total deer hunting population.. so if you do the math there is no way that poachers can possibly kill as many yearling bucks as hunters are... that does not mean that poachers don't have some impact on deer management in isolated areas.. just not enough to hurt a state wide AR plan... hunters alone have the greatest impact on buck age structure.

[G-Man]

Qdm... a lot of talk about older bucks here....not much about habitat, balancing numbers(sex ratio). the problem with qdm as a moniker is that it is equated with trophy management which in my opinion is all i see in this thread so far..... Older bucks are a part of it unfortunatly the are the only part that seems to get focused on. How about the fact that my yearling deer gained almost 15lbs dressed weight on average since i started in 1995.or that 2 year olds are up almost 40lbs. or that my buck to doe ration is almost 1-2,5. Just the fact everytime i go in the woods i see a buck! .... get off the older big buck thinking and improve your overall herd health!!!

Edited October 14, 2011 by G-Man

[nyantler]

Qdm... a lot of talk about older bucks here....not much about habitat, balancing numbers(sex ratio). the problem with qdm as a moniker is that it is equated with trophy management which in my opinion is all i see in this thread so far..... Older bucks are a part of it unfortunatly the are the only part that seems to get focused on. How about the fact that my yearling deer gained almost 15lbs dressed weight on average since i started in 1995.or that 2 year olds are up almost 40lbs. or that my buck to doe ration is almost 1-2,5. Just the fact everytime i go in the woods i see a buck! .... get off the older big buck thinking and improve your overall herd health!!!

Well said "G".. you are one of the few that have a handle on the overall picture... and it is quite obvious when you speak on the subject of deer management and evident in the quality of whitetails that you have produced on your land.

[outdoorstom]

How is their testosterone rush any better or worse than of those who think it's more manly to kill only big bucks??? I see mighty little difference. We all shoot what makes us happy and gives us a rush and it should continue to stay that way. Implementing QDM promotes one philosophy at the expense of the others when they aren't allowed to shoot what they want just because QDM people think they shouldn't be. QDM thinkers call everyone else selfish, when the truth is that they are the most selfish lot of all. The DEC manages deer numbers, and will never manage them for the benefit of the QDM thinkers. No reason to. Deer get shot by hunters and that is all that will ever be important to them. You want QDM, you can certainly participate in it on YOUR land.

You're certainly out of line with this bs statement. I've been practicing QDM for years and shockingly, I've never called anyone selfish. Me? I'm not selfish at all. I enjoy working on my property and improving the habitat. How does that make me selfish? Kind of a broad statement, don't you think?

Edited October 14, 2011 by outdoorstom

[burmjohn]

And the DEC care more then just the "numbers"

[G-Man]

Steve, i think you are talking about trophy management although most qdm'ers think this is qdm its not.. we took 11 buck and 10 doe off my property last year. 5 were yearling buck. I do not put antler restrictions on my property ... if your happy with it shoot it and tag it just don't complain if someone gets something bigger..

[adirondackbushwhack]

Just look at the total number of bucks killed each year by all hunters and then look at the percentage of those deer that are young bucks... poacher numbers are far less than the total deer hunting population.. so if you do the math there is no way that poachers can possibly kill as many yearling bucks as hunters are... that does not mean that poachers don't have some impact on deer management in isolated areas.. just not enough to hurt a state wide AR plan... hunters alone have the greatest impact on buck age structure.

I agree the poacher numbers are less but how much less is the question. Shooting starts in early Sept. around my property in the southern zone and continues night and day until the end of the real hunting season. I would guess that in that area more deer are poached then are taken by legal means however as you say that isn't the case state wide. Still I see poaching going unchecked in the Adirondacks too and just a couple of poachers can take several deer each quite easily if they know what they are doing. Under the right conditions they might spot light a dozen in a single night and I had a spot cleaned out just that way in the dacks several years ago. Heck on another thread here some place someone said that all of the deer bait was sold out of one of the stores. Anything shot over that bait is poached but I bet they don't get reported as such or bragged on as such.

I have had the bad fortune of seeing what poachers can do to a local deer population and they can ruin an area for hunters. I have no doubts that in many places across the state poachers are having a very negative impact on the deer and the hunters are suffering for it. On my own land back in the day (before poachers moved into the area) I had my choice of buck and passed several each year until I found the one I wanted. Once the poachers moved in and started killing all of the doe the buck disapeared and I don't even bother hunting there anymore. It makes it hard for the guys who will shoot any buck and even harder for those who prefer mature buck.

[wdswtr]

I think there is some confusion on Quality deer management and trophy deer management amongst hunters. Anyone dare take a poke at explaining it better? I understand both and am in favor of QDM. Trophy management is going to take a far lot more hunters to jump on board to make it noticable statewide. The DEC practices QDM take a look at their website and see the land improvement they have and are making on specific state land. They dont do timber harvest or do clear cuts for new growth or plant and grow grasses in fields for nothing. Heck you cant even call it timber harvesting as they leave the down trees in the woods for winter browse and cover. QDM does not mean not shooting the small bucks its about land management and sustaining an adequate buck to doe ratio, how many deer a piece of land can sustain for example. Why would any hunter not be in favor of a healthier deer herd in NY? Healthy doesnt mean seeing big nontypicals in the woods day in and day out and nor does QDM.

Edited October 14, 2011 by wdswtr

[erussell]

I practice my own version of antler restrictions, like to shoot atleast an 8 point with a 16 inch spread. It results in a few yrs without a buck but it makes me happy.Ive even shot the does bucks were chasing around my stand before. If shooting a spike makes you happy I have no problem with that either. I do think some sort of antler restrictions for the southern zone would be a good thing. (I cannot speak for the Northern zone, they have a whole nother hunting reality there). Gives the bucks a chance to put a few yrs on them and puts more bucks in the woods to harvest. PA has had them for a few yrs now and before AR's there deer had pitifully small racks. Now they consistently most yrs shoot bigger buckslike these biggest from last yr. 207in, 210in, and 190in in that order. Now im sure most of these bucks came off QDM properties and not off some stateland.

Edited October 14, 2011 by erussell