Crossbow Full Inclusion Support needed

[Five Seasons]

13 hours ago, genesee_mohican said:

Many areas close to my house have VERY limited access points to get onto state land. On the days I'm working, I'll drive by some of those areas before and after work, so I have a really good idea of who is hunting that area.  On days I'm hunting, I'll be in the same area, so I have a fairly good idea on how many hunters are out in that area during all phases of the season. Why do you ask?  I could care less if guys are hunting with crossbow, long bow or compound during bow season.  I just concentrate on what I enjoy and the game at hand.

I only asked because I'm not a big fan of anecdotal evidence. Your logic is sound and probably accurate, but many people will mistake their first hand observations as applying large scale, and thus why everything is super political and why so many are uninformed these days.

[Five Seasons]

12 hours ago, Steuben Jerry said:

So because you personally don’t approve of, or believe in a particular thing, those that do are inferior and should be prevented from doing what they want?

Got it, you’re Andrew Cuomo. 

counter point. How is a crossbow user not inferior to an archer? 

[Steuben Jerry]

1 hour ago, Belo said:

counter point. How is a crossbow user not inferior to an archer? 

I have no feelings or thought patterns on inferiority or superiority for people who like bows or xbows so I honestly can't offer anything on that. 

I just don't believe that the "feelings" of a subset of people should prevent me from obtaining a privilege that hurts no one else. I hunt 99.9% on my own property and follow the rules. I am on my property hunting with a bow as much as work time allows me to be. And then I switch to xbow for the last two weeks. I have no problems following the rules. And my tactics and style of hunting is no different whether I'm using a compound bow or an xbow (truth be told, I hate lugging the damn thing around instead of my compound, and I probably would still hunt with my compound more even if xbow got full inclusion).

However, it galls me that I am prevented from enjoying my choice of equipment on my own property on my own time because some folks decide I'm not a "real archer" or I'm "inferior". It reminds me of high school BS. "you're not tough, or you suck because you drive a Ford", or some other such childish nonsense.

It also strikes me as an absurdly liberal (far left) tactic no different than anti gunners saying I don't need an AR. Or the childish notion that if I "need" a black rifle I must be making up for some other shortcoming. I see no difference at all in the mindset, just the subject matter at hand.

I'm not even trying to have an xbow vs. bow debate - to me, I see this as one group of people wanting to control the limitations of others. It is what it is, I guess.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Steuben Jerry

[Steuben Jerry]

1 minute ago, Rowdy10 said:

everyone is entitled to their opinion

Including me.

[grampy]

1 hour ago, Belo said:

counter point. How is a crossbow user not inferior to an archer? 

This here, is my main issue with with the whole crossbow debate. One group of hunters calling another group of hunters "inferior" because they choose a different 'legal' hunting implement, or tool, to kill a deer. Does it really matter how another hunter goes about putting deer meat in their freezer? As long as the rules and laws are followed, I honestly don't believe it does. Just hunters bashing hunters. And for what gain? We are ALL inferior in some ways. Why not dwell on what makes us ALL stronger? Unity.................

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, Steuben Jerry said:

I just don't believe that the "feelings" of a subset of people should prevent me from obtaining a privilege that hurts no one else. 

you just stated the whole argument from the anti-gun crowd. Their feelings are that you not being able to own a gun doesn't hurt anyone. Basically our entire legal system is based on feelings lol.

[Five Seasons]

46 minutes ago, grampy said:

This here, is my main issue with with the whole crossbow debate. One group of hunters calling another group of hunters "inferior" because they choose a different 'legal' hunting implement, or tool, to kill a deer. Does it really matter how another hunter goes about putting deer meat in their freezer? As long as the rules and laws are followed, I honestly don't believe it does. Just hunters bashing hunters. And for what gain? We are ALL inferior in some ways. Why not dwell on what makes us ALL stronger? Unity.................

Well this is the main point of contention though. Archery season was started way back in the day to create a challenge for hunters looking for it. Yes the compound has grown in technology quite a bit since the archery season began, but the essence is still supposed to be about hunter challenge. What's lost by many (outside elderly and disability) is that archery is just another season and it's only intention is to fill harvest quotas. That's not the original intent and shouldn't be now. 

For many the crossbow tips the scales in an already challenging world for what is increasingly a gray area where food plots, gps, trail cams, cell cams, tree stands etc have vastly changed the archery world as it was when I started just 15 years ago, let alone what it looked like decades ago upon inception. 

As difficult as this  is for many to digest, the reward of for an archery kill, especially a mature kill is that it's really freaking hard. Keep diminishing the difficulty and the "I shot a nice 8 during archery" isn't as special anymore. This is labeled as elitest, which is a tag I've gladly accepted in past discussions because that, in my opinion is what archery is supposed to be about. The elite wanting to challenge themselves to bring a deer within 30 yards without being winded, draw without being seen and release an arrow that hits its mark. Within the rules archers can challenge themselves further with recurves, with hunting public land, with raising the floor of what they are targeting. This is hunter choice. The crossbow however for me swerves outside of the yellow lines into the oncoming traffic lane that is gun season because the range is significantly greater and there is no draw and considerably less practice to be able to hit your mark in a high pressure situation. These difference vary significantly from the differences between compound and recurve. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Belo

[grampy]

14 minutes ago, Belo said:

Well this is the main point of contention though. Archery season was started way back in the day to create a challenge for hunters looking for it. Yes the compound has grown in technology quite a bit since the archery season began, but the essence is still supposed to be about hunter challenge. What's lost by many (outside elderly and disability) is that archery is just another season and it's only intention is to fill harvest quotas. That's not the original intent and shouldn't be now. 

For many the crossbow tips the scales in an already challenging world for what is increasingly a gray area where food plots, gps, trail cams, cell cams, tree stands etc have vastly changed the archery world as it was when I started just 15 years ago, let alone what it looked like decades ago upon inception. 

As difficult as this  is for many to digest, the reward of for an archery kill, especially a mature kill is that it's really freaking hard. Keep diminishing the difficulty and the "I shot a nice 8 during archery" isn't as special anymore. This is labeled as elitest, which is a tag I've gladly accepted in past discussions because that, in my opinion is what archery is supposed to be about. The elite wanting to challenge themselves to bring a deer within 30 yards without being winded, draw without being seen and release an arrow that hits its mark. Within the rules archers can challenge themselves further with recurves, with hunting public land, with raising the floor of what they are targeting. This is hunter choice. The crossbow however for me swerves outside of the yellow lines into the oncoming traffic lane that is gun season because the range is significantly greater and there is no draw and considerably less practice to be able to hit your mark in a high pressure situation. These difference vary significantly from the differences between compound and recurve. 

I agree to disagree with you Belo. 40 years ago, when I started bowhunting, I started because it gave me More Time To Be In The Woods Hunting!!! Simple as that!!! I did not look at it like being an elite hunter! Just that I had more time to hunt!!

The equipment used today by bowhunters, far exeeds any of the equipment I started with bowhunting. But that is a moot point, because nothing ever stays the same. Everything progresses, or is left behind. Just like bowhunting is in a numbers decline. Why is that?

If someone shoots ANY deer, I am truly happy for them!! My first question is never "what did you shoot it with"? C'mon man..... you can do better. And are better.

This whole discussion is only rehashing the hundreds of pages here of crossbow debate, AGAIN. I've stated my own opinion many times, and listened to countless others opinion too. Frankly, It's all getting boring to me now. And I'm out of this discussion AGAIN! Will focus on something more constructive like hunter unity. Or perhaps mentoring a new, or young hunter. That's what will be a better benefit to my love hunting. Not an elitest attitude on how other hunters decide to hunt.

[phade]

I'll admit to having a mental heirarchy of deer kills via implements but that lasts for maybe five seconds before reality kicks in and a big buck is a big buck.

One of the mental hurdles I have is when a hunter is gun only vs a multi implement user, namely bow and gun - if they both kill the same size buck in gun, I'll think the bowhunter earned it more. Not sure why but I devalue from a bias the gun only hunter. It's just a mental hurdle for some reason. Heck the bowhunter might have been a poor bowhunter which is why he relied on gun season - but even in that I connect the effort to reward. I never let it impact my outward reaction or congrats, but I have a hard time valuing the accomplishment similarly unless I know that hunter and who they are (IE their dedication, effort, etc.). Its assumptive, generalizing, and not conducive but it is my initial gut reaction internally.

Xbow blurs that line for me somehow. I support inclusion and hopefully it'll help me to assume the best in people. I know I value xbow when I was hurt in 2019...if not for that, I'd have sat inside for my rutcation. Ended up shooting a piebald. I wasn't going to let an xbow rob me of that experience.

Someday I'm going to kill a deer with a self made bow and arrow set-up and do it wearing a loin cloth. LOL.

[phantom]

Don't really care one way or the other  for full inclusion   but if we go by strict definition  The design   of just a bow with string and arrow is what they are talking about  in the definition when  you ad cams and triggers and all the rest it starts to get into grey areas  and when you add a stock pistol grip and scope you start to push the limits in some peoples  minds probably more so with the people that don't hunt . Maybe that has something to do with it , maybe the general public  sees crossbows differently to compounds . So the DEC  hesitate in changing to much to fast . I have seen a few bad story's in news dealing with irresponsible crossbow use , and that does not help 

Massachusetts man with crossbow kills neighbor while trying to save him from dog attack, police say – KIRO 7 News Seattle

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/

archery

 noun

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ar·chery | \ ˈär-chə-rē  \

Definition of archery

1: the art, practice, or skill of shooting with bow and arrow

Edited April 7, 2021 by phantom

[Four Seasons]

4 hours ago, Rowdy10 said:

Nobody here is dwelling on anything is just that crossbow is not archery -again in my opinion and of many many others.
It's like letting crossbows into compound bow competitions


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Why would YOU CARE what somebody else thinks something is?  Is somebody going to shoot your deer with a crossbow before you get a crack with a compound?  

[Steuben Jerry]

4 hours ago, Rowdy10 said:

It's like letting crossbows into compound bow competitions

That's not the same at all. A "compound bow competition" would be for compound bows. We don't have a "compound season".

[Four Seasons]

4 hours ago, Belo said:

Well this is the main point of contention though. Archery season was started way back in the day to create a challenge for hunters looking for it. Yes the compound has grown in technology quite a bit since the archery season began, but the essence is still supposed to be about hunter challenge. What's lost by many (outside elderly and disability) is that archery is just another season and it's only intention is to fill harvest quotas. That's not the original intent and shouldn't be now. 

For many the crossbow tips the scales in an already challenging world for what is increasingly a gray area where food plots, gps, trail cams, cell cams, tree stands etc have vastly changed the archery world as it was when I started just 15 years ago, let alone what it looked like decades ago upon inception. 

As difficult as this  is for many to digest, the reward of for an archery kill, especially a mature kill is that it's really freaking hard. Keep diminishing the difficulty and the "I shot a nice 8 during archery" isn't as special anymore. This is labeled as elitest, which is a tag I've gladly accepted in past discussions because that, in my opinion is what archery is supposed to be about. The elite wanting to challenge themselves to bring a deer within 30 yards without being winded, draw without being seen and release an arrow that hits its mark. Within the rules archers can challenge themselves further with recurves, with hunting public land, with raising the floor of what they are targeting. This is hunter choice. The crossbow however for me swerves outside of the yellow lines into the oncoming traffic lane that is gun season because the range is significantly greater and there is no draw and considerably less practice to be able to hit your mark in a high pressure situation. These difference vary significantly from the differences between compound and recurve. 

So you would have no problems if Xbow was it’s own weapon with its own tag and started on October 1 and ran until opening of gun?

[Five Seasons]

3 hours ago, grampy said:

If someone shoots ANY deer, I am truly happy for them!! My first question is never "what did you shoot it with"? C'mon man..... you can do better. And are better.

If my post came across that way, it wasn't meant to. I don't ever try to shame or demean a legal hunter. But right now we're talking about opinions on a law change and I've expressed mine (more than few times lol). I've said before that if it became legal it wouldn't really change much for me. I would not ridicule those who chose to use a crossbow just like I don't now. 

If I knew the hunter well, i might bust balls, just like a bust balls for killing bb's. I think that's different though.

This is a place to share opinions and if there was a magical world where we voted to include them or not, I'd vote not to and for the reasons I've outlined above and thousand other times.

[Five Seasons]

3 hours ago, grampy said:

I agree to disagree with you Belo. 40 years ago, when I started bowhunting, I started because it gave me More Time To Be In The Woods Hunting!!! Simple as that!!! I did not look at it like being an elite hunter! Just that I had more time to hunt!!

this is a real good point grampy. I do believe many hunters start bowhunting as a way to spend more time in the woods. I would even guess the majority do it for this reason. That doesn't mean to me that it should be made easier just because more people want to be in the deer woods though. Hunter recruitment is important, but also to be an archer, you need to be the right hunter who is truly dedicated. If you're not on board with this than it's not the season for you. Yeah, yeah here comes the elitest  again. But a sloppy archer isn't good for the sport. The deer in NJ with the arrow in her jaw hurts all of us.

[Five Seasons]

21 minutes ago, Four Seasons said:

So you would have no problems if Xbow was it’s own weapon with its own tag and started on October 1 and ran until opening of gun?

where did you get that from? I don't want xbow in the archery season. I didn't want what we have now, but I accept it. 

[Four Seasons]

45 minutes ago, Belo said:

where did you get that from? I don't want xbow in the archery season. I didn't want what we have now, but I accept it. 

Exactly. You don’t want other people in your woods regardless. So even though it is quiet... like Bow. Would not have a friggin effect on your hunting in the least...unless you are scared I am going to shoot YOUR deer... why would you give two shits who hunts those dates with a Xbow?

[Four Seasons]

48 minutes ago, Belo said:

where did you get that from? I don't want xbow in the archery season. I didn't want what we have now, but I accept it. 

  Any it won’t be just Archery season.  It will be both Xbow and any other string just different season and tags. 

[Nomad]

I don’t find hunting with a compound any great challenge. I started in the ‘80s with a Golden Eagle , shot it fingers ,off a flipper rest with a single brass pin sight, 2117s with feathers two blade  Mangus  . Killed a buck my first year and most years since . Used that set up 18 years .

I can pick up,the bow after months and shoot just as well as ever .

One neat thing about having worked for the FD is there’s tons of hunters , and each year ,guys pick,up a bow for the first time , many kill deer their first year . We shot at work and newbies are hitting a dollar Bill at 20 yards from the get go . 
 

I know many who don’t shoot their compound till just before the season starts or sometimes after , as they wait for the rut to,hunt . 
 

Most I know started bow hunting ,because its easier to get a chance at at bigger buck . Some of you fellas are acting like you grow your own Yew tree , flint Knapp the heads , and caught the fish for the strings .

[Four Seasons]

3 minutes ago, Rowdy10 said:

We can go back to recurve as far as I'm concerned -I'll get my share no matter what.
-you'll never convince me that crossbow is similar or close to recurve or compound
-since you calling me scarred ,If you really wanna know who's scared it's the cross gun people of HAVING A TAG SOUP it never happens here -maybe we can go back to spears!!!


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Riiiiight!  

[Trial153]

Great work. Keep up the fight, our archery season is worth the effort

[mike103]

Only in New York would hunters fight for less access by hunters that want to use a different legal hunting implement.

The sport is dying and people here are upset that children have their own season, that people want to use a different type of bow, they want their season longer and others season shorter. 
 

I have never see a bunch of self absorbed selfish narcissistic people in my life.

And they do all this using a modern bow that has no resemblance to a primitive weapon while hanging from a tree out of sight of the prey with some sort of smug self righteousness. 
 

It’s really kind of pathetic to listen to.  
 

 

 

 

[genesee_mohican]

10 hours ago, Belo said:

Well this is the main point of contention though. Archery season was started way back in the day to create a challenge for hunters looking for it. Yes the compound has grown in technology quite a bit since the archery season began, but the essence is still supposed to be about hunter challenge. What's lost by many (outside elderly and disability) is that archery is just another season and it's only intention is to fill harvest quotas. That's not the original intent and shouldn't be now. 

For many the crossbow tips the scales in an already challenging world for what is increasingly a gray area where food plots, gps, trail cams, cell cams, tree stands etc have vastly changed the archery world as it was when I started just 15 years ago, let alone what it looked like decades ago upon inception. 

As difficult as this  is for many to digest, the reward of for an archery kill, especially a mature kill is that it's really freaking hard. Keep diminishing the difficulty and the "I shot a nice 8 during archery" isn't as special anymore. This is labeled as elitest, which is a tag I've gladly accepted in past discussions because that, in my opinion is what archery is supposed to be about. The elite wanting to challenge themselves to bring a deer within 30 yards without being winded, draw without being seen and release an arrow that hits its mark. Within the rules archers can challenge themselves further with recurves, with hunting public land, with raising the floor of what they are targeting. This is hunter choice. The crossbow however for me swerves outside of the yellow lines into the oncoming traffic lane that is gun season because the range is significantly greater and there is no draw and considerably less practice to be able to hit your mark in a high pressure situation. These difference vary significantly from the differences between compound and recurve. 

This is getting old.

 I don't care what others hunt with during bow season. Bow, recurve, long bow, crossbow.  Go  out and have fun, I know I will be enjoying life to the fullest. And If I am out hunting public land during the last few weeks or the archery season and I come across a stranger carrying a crossbow, I don't see an interior hunter. I see a friend with the same deer hunting interest as me. 

Together we stand, divided we fall.

 

 

 

[Five Seasons]

18 hours ago, Four Seasons said:

Exactly. You don’t want other people in your woods regardless. So even though it is quiet... like Bow. Would not have a friggin effect on your hunting in the least...unless you are scared I am going to shoot YOUR deer... why would you give two shits who hunts those dates with a Xbow?

i've answered this and similar questions 100 times. You just don't like the answer. I'm not going to rehash it.

17 hours ago, Nomad said:

I don’t find hunting with a compound any great challenge. I started in the ‘80s with a Golden Eagle , shot it fingers ,off a flipper rest with a single brass pin sight, 2117s with feathers two blade  Mangus  . Killed a buck my first year and most years since . Used that set up 18 years .

I can pick up,the bow after months and shoot just as well as ever .

One neat thing about having worked for the FD is there’s tons of hunters , and each year ,guys pick,up a bow for the first time , many kill deer their first year . We shot at work and newbies are hitting a dollar Bill at 20 yards from the get go . 
 

I know many who don’t shoot their compound till just before the season starts or sometimes after , as they wait for the rut to,hunt . 
 

Most I know started bow hunting ,because its easier to get a chance at at bigger buck . Some of you fellas are acting like you grow your own Yew tree , flint Knapp the heads , and caught the fish for the strings .

Let me be clear. It was not my intent to imply that archery hunting was some extremely difficult and impossible thing. I'm comparing it to gun hunting and crossbow hunting. We've had this debate and except for a few odd balls, it is agreed upon that archery is the hardest of the 3. So when looking at deer hunting as a sport in its entirety, the successful archery harvest is generally revered as the most challenging. Now this is a very broad general statement and I understand that taking a deer with a rifle in the Adirondacks is probably harder than a LI bow kill. Public vs private, etc. etc. But I'm trying to make a general case and I don't think anyone disagrees. One of the great things about hunting is that there are so many variables.

I'd also say this, I baulk at your claims that guys just pick up a bow, start shooting bulls out of the gate and then kill a buck from a stand first try. Sorry, but unless they're hunting some primo unpressured land I just don't buy it. Did I shoot a buck my first year archery hunting? Yes. Did I practice for months prior? yes. Had I already been hunting 6 or so years? yes. Did I liver hit that buck because of my novice misjudgment of POA? yes. Was that buck a yearling 7 pointer? yes.

To say that anyone can just pick up a modern compound and walk into the woods and become a buck slayer is irresponsible and bs. 

And if you've been archery hunting for 10 years, then yes it's not hard to start flinging arrows a few weeks before the season and feel comfortable. It's not exactly riding a bike, but it's not like you start from scratch each season either.

[Five Seasons]

14 hours ago, mike103 said:

Only in New York would hunters fight for less access by hunters that want to use a different legal hunting implement.

The sport is dying and people here are upset that children have their own season, that people want to use a different type of bow, they want their season longer and others season shorter. 
 

I have never see a bunch of self absorbed selfish narcissistic people in my life.

And they do all this using a modern bow that has no resemblance to a primitive weapon while hanging from a tree out of sight of the prey with some sort of smug self righteousness. 
 

It’s really kind of pathetic to listen to.  
 

 

 

 

use a different legal hunting implement? That's the point dude, until recently it wasn't legal and that's the whole debate here. Should it be legal. Can I spear hunt too? What about atlatl? air powered bolt guns? Those are all "legal" in some states. Why are they out and the crossbow in? Why is it confusing for you that the argument is over "if" it should be legal?

Now lets move on to your claim of this dying sport. here are the statistics:

https://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html

License sales have actually increased 30k in NY since 2006. So help me understand how the sport is dying? Over 150k hunters bought an archery tag last year. 

Last year the pandemic tripled the sale https://www.dec.ny.gov/press/121334.html