Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Carpenter]

Haha, I just read what I posted and feel I need to admit that sometimes I get a little carried away.

[Carpenter]

Cruised through the contestants in the Hunting Success Story poll and think this one in particular is good - http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php/topic,2585.0.html

The 5th poster down from the top seemed to appreciate that spike horn too

[Santamour123]

I am totaly for AR's  However I feel places like Letchworth are doing it correct.  AR's but if you are under 18 years of age The AR does not apply.  Let every kid shoot a spike .  That is great get them hooked.

[nyantler]

Just because I have an opinion on AR doesn't mean I can't appreciate the excitement that a young man has after taking his first buck or any buck for that matter... I had the same excitement at that age... and I'm not for imposing my standards on anyone just for the sake of being right... But... IMO.. conservation law shouldn't be made just to satisfy hunters wants (including mine)... if the conservation department decided that AR's would be good for the buck age structure... then thats what should happen ... if in fact the conservation laws that are currently in place are for the betterment of the whitetail in NY and age structure is deemed necessary for that betterment.. then I see nothing wrong with imposing AR's on NY hunters... if the opposite is true and it is not deemed necessary then there is no need for an AR... this isn't being an elitist... because its not about what me or what any other hunter thinks based on his or her wants.. it's about doing the right thing for deer management if its needed... if in fact it isn't needed then I agree with allowing hunters to take what they please...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am totaly for AR's  However I feel places like Letchworth are doing it correct.  AR's but if you are under 18 years of age The AR does not apply.  Let every kid shoot a spike .  That is great get them hooked.

What are your thoughts on the NZ? Are you suggesting a statewide or by region?

[erussell]

I'm so far just for AR's in the southern Zone only. Anything AR in the snow belt to the Adirondacks IMO is probably a waste of time. I don't think the habitat is there unless the forever wild people throw up there hands and let the state start to clear cutting the ADK's. Which everyone knows isn't going to happen. The worst thing the state of NY could ever have done was let the ADK go unmanaged. I spent a week in the Cedar river flow a few yrs back and was amazed at the lack of wildlife except rabbits, mice and chipmonks.

[Larry]

Just to let you know the AR was not put in place in Letchworth so we hunters would be able in time to harvest bigger bucks. The AR. Program was put in place to put more pressure on doe’s. Their goal is to reduce the deer population in the park. Killing a buck no matter what size dose nothing to reduce the long term deer population in the park. We may see bigger buck in the long term but fewer deer. Why do you think they allow deer hunting in the park, it’s not for are benefit hunting is the cheapest way to control the deer population. If there was a cheaper way they would be using that instead.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Well it seems to be working and thats allright by me.I have seen less does the last couple years but not by alot.I think the young and dumb ones get taken up by the road and the mature and smart ones are on the bottom with me.If thats what they are looking to do and big mature bucks are the prize....Count me in!!!!!!

[bobprimo]

I've hunted the same 2 areas in pa. for the past 30 yrs. and I've seen bigger deer since the change. My 2 biggest deer to date have come in the last 5 yrs.

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

My experience in 3C/3J has been the opposite - the deer aren't any bigger, the bucks being taken are small-racked 6 pointers with a brow tine barely over the 1 inch minimum.  No matter how you slice it, the DEC's own data shows that there's no biological benefit to the deer herd from AR, and 4 out of 10 hunters in 3C/3J don't want forced, mandatory antler restrictions, yet they are slated to continue.  Maybe it's because I work in the private sector, but last I checked with my marketing guy he didn't recommend that I adopt policies that will alienate 40% of the people who spend money in support of my salary.  Apparently things work differently when you work for the gub'ment.  Since the boys who want to force antler restrictions on the rest of us can already voluntarily choose to wait for that elusive big buck, why are we so gung-ho to put the screws to the 40% of the rest of us who are happy with any deer at all?  So my thoughts on antler restrictions - if you want to do them voluntarily, go forth and have fun - but they shouldn't be part of the game management law, as the data doesn't support having them there.

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

First of all...congrats to your 15 year old..sounds like it was a nice buck.

You're kind of making my point...I'd like to see us all have the CHOICE to pass on that little buck or not.  I have been shooting does, but since the DMP quota in 3C was cut the last couple of years I was using the tags that came with the Bow/ML license to get it done.....now it appears that DEC will take those away in the new plan, so we're down to "1 buck only"...if that's the case, I want the choice to shoot that tasty spike on the last day of the season.

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

Well..that's the law now, and my opinion is it needs to be changed.  I respect the decision of those who pass on smaller bucks, but I'd like to to go back to having the option of shooting the little guy if I decide to do so (dare I say go back to having my fellow hunters respect my choice to hunt the way I want to?).  There's an economic element to this too;  based on the DEC data there's a large number of "non-local" folks choosing to hunt in areas outside the AR zone;  approximately 1 in 15 of the folks living in the AR zone are travelling outside the area to hunt (and spend their dollars).  Anyone who runs a business that depends on hunters' dollars should be concerned with the expansion of the AR zone out to their areas...if the current data extends to the folks in the expanded AR zone, they'll be seeing less money this hunting season.  Anyway, as you say, this can be argued forever.  Working on my letter to the DEC, asking them to free the 40% of us who don't agree with AR to free us from the tyranny of this trophy antler farming scheme.

[fasteddie]

I passed on some spikes , a couple fork horns and a 5 point last year and ate my buck tags . I was okay with that and shot a doe opening day of gun season . A young guy who bow hunted with me one day shot a button buck and said he knew it was a button when he took the shot and was estatic over his bow kill . To each his own . If they do or don't do AR's the the areas I hunt , it won't matter to me .

I have never shot anything larger than a basket racked 8 point and would like to have the opportunity to do so but my time is running out . As long as I can shoot does , the little racked bucks won't matter ( but that could change ) .

[Meat Hunter]

Where to start…I am a meat hunter- 99% of the meat I eat is venison.  Before the AR plan, for 16 years, I harvested a spike buck that averaged 80 dressed.  Since the AR plan our average buck is 133 lbs.  That is a lot more meat. 

I have seen a lot more scraps, rubs and some really cool grunting and doe chasing.

Now keep in mind that 3 points only works in our area and most of the rest of NY would need a higher standard to protect yearling bucks.

I am not sure where the folks are from on this site but if you were in Sullivan and Ulster County and went to the Federation meetings you would see that ARs are what the local sportsmen want.  The DEC surveys show that 67% of the hunters who go afield want to expand ARs.  In the Areas that have ARs the majority want to keep them.  If you were in Sullivan and Ulster Counties and saw the DEC presentations on the issue, you would see that the DEC numbers show they work, buck harvest is 85% adult males, that is 2.5 years and older.

ARs are working to protect yearling bucks—only 14% of the harvest is yearling bucks now in the AR area.  That is down 80%.  And we have harvested the biggest bucks since the 1920s.

The harvest data coming from DEC in the units where ARs are in effect ends the debate about whether or not they work; it is now proven to work in NY.  The only thing left to discuss right now is how people feel about them (ARs). The DEC Surveys have proven that hunter support adopting and continuing the  program  The bottom line is every hunter wants to see the biggest buck possible and AR make that possible.

Now let’s look at who supports the DEC AR expansion plan:  6 Senators, 7 Assembly Members,

Organized sportsmen:

Sullivan County Federation of Sportsmen 110 Clubs

Ulster County Federation of Sportsmen 35 clubs

Greene County Federation of Sportsmen

Schoharie County Conservation Association

Duchess County Federation of Sportsmen

QDMA- local, statewide and nation support

New York State Whitetail Management Coalition, Inc.

Local Community Support:

Sullivan County Legislature, Greene County Legislatures,

Sullivan County Farm Bureau, Ulster County Legislature,

Ulster County Farm Bureau, Schoharie County Board of Supervisors,

Delaware County Chamber of Commerce, Delaware County Farm Bureau,

Delaware County Economic Development, Delaware County Board of Supervisors,

Delaware County Legislature, Schoharie County Farm Bureau

Surveys

DEC Survey March 2009

67.1% Support Antler Restrictions in the proposed units 19.9% oppose. This Represents a

super majority, not just a majority and meets the DEC's arbitrary numbers for implementing

Antler Restrictions in new areas.

Cornell HDRU 2007 – 63% support yearling buck protection and 15% against them in the

proposed area and 59% said it would improve hunting satisfaction.

NYSCC Survey found 81% for Antler Restrictions in the 8 proposed units and 61% statewide

for Antler Restrictions.

New York Bowhunters Survey 2010 found 65% of their members in favor of antler

restrictions.

Tiger Survey found 75% for new buck management and 65% not happy with NYS deer

management.

Public Meetings Surveys all found over 90% support for Antler Restrictions from Delaware,

Sullivan Ulster and Schoharie Counties.

Delaware Department of Economic Development Survey found 90.7% for it and 9.3 against

Antler Restrictions.

ARs are what the local folks want, they have overwhelming support and they work. If you are not in the areas proposed perhaps you should apply the concept of home rule and let those folks have the say as to what happens in their back yards.

I am surprised that there appear to be several vocal opponents on this site.  Other sites I visit are strongly in support of ARs

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Where to start…I am a meat hunter- 99% of the meat I eat is venison.  Before the AR plan, for 16 years, I harvested a spike buck that averaged 80 dressed.  Since the AR plan our average buck is 133 lbs.  That is a lot more meat. 

I have seen a lot more scraps, rubs and some really cool grunting and doe chasing.

Now keep in mind that 3 points only works in our area and most of the rest of NY would need a higher standard to protect yearling bucks.

I am not sure where the folks are from on this site but if you were in Sullivan and Ulster County and went to the Federation meetings you would see that ARs are what the local sportsmen want.  The DEC surveys show that 67% of the hunters who go afield want to expand ARs.  In the Areas that have ARs the majority want to keep them.  If you were in Sullivan and Ulster Counties and saw the DEC presentations on the issue, you would see that the DEC numbers show they work, buck harvest is 85% adult males, that is 2.5 years and older.

ARs are working to protect yearling bucks—only 14% of the harvest is yearling bucks now in the AR area.  That is down 80%.  And we have harvested the biggest bucks since the 1920s.

The harvest data coming from DEC in the units where ARs are in effect ends the debate about whether or not they work; it is now proven to work in NY.  The only thing left to discuss right now is how people feel about them (ARs). The DEC Surveys have proven that hunter support adopting and continuing the  program  The bottom line is every hunter wants to see the biggest buck possible and AR make that possible.

Now let’s look at who supports the DEC AR expansion plan:  6 Senators, 7 Assembly Members,

Organized sportsmen:

Sullivan County Federation of Sportsmen 110 Clubs

Ulster County Federation of Sportsmen 35 clubs

Greene County Federation of Sportsmen

Schoharie County Conservation Association

Duchess County Federation of Sportsmen

QDMA- local, statewide and nation support

New York State Whitetail Management Coalition, Inc.

Local Community Support:

Sullivan County Legislature, Greene County Legislatures,

Sullivan County Farm Bureau, Ulster County Legislature,

Ulster County Farm Bureau, Schoharie County Board of Supervisors,

Delaware County Chamber of Commerce, Delaware County Farm Bureau,

Delaware County Economic Development, Delaware County Board of Supervisors,

Delaware County Legislature, Schoharie County Farm Bureau

Surveys

DEC Survey March 2009

67.1% Support Antler Restrictions in the proposed units 19.9% oppose. This Represents a

super majority, not just a majority and meets the DEC's arbitrary numbers for implementing

Antler Restrictions in new areas.

Cornell HDRU 2007 – 63% support yearling buck protection and 15% against them in the

proposed area and 59% said it would improve hunting satisfaction.

NYSCC Survey found 81% for Antler Restrictions in the 8 proposed units and 61% statewide

for Antler Restrictions.

New York Bowhunters Survey 2010 found 65% of their members in favor of antler

restrictions.

Tiger Survey found 75% for new buck management and 65% not happy with NYS deer

management.

Public Meetings Surveys all found over 90% support for Antler Restrictions from Delaware,

Sullivan Ulster and Schoharie Counties.

Delaware Department of Economic Development Survey found 90.7% for it and 9.3 against

Antler Restrictions.

ARs are what the local folks want, they have overwhelming support and they work. If you are not in the areas proposed perhaps you should apply the concept of home rule and let those folks have the say as to what happens in their back yards.

I am surprised that there appear to be several vocal opponents on this site.  Other sites I visit are strongly in support of ARs

Woah! That's a mighty hefty 2nd post there fella. Some good info, but where did you get those numbers? can you provide links? On this site, the AR poll shows 53% approval. the rest are against or confused.

[SteveB]

Percentages mean nothing - going from 1 to 2 is a 100% increase. What are the actual numbers of 1.5 and older both before and now. These are the real facts and can't mislead like %'s.

And 2.5 is not an adult. Deer aren't mature until 4.5 minimum.

[bubba]

So I gues you are saying there were no 133 pound deer before ar?  If you eat 99 percent venison, yu must not eat a lot of meat in a year, or you must take illegal deer.  Just my humble opinion.  At best 4 or 5 deer a year will not stretch a year if yo ueat it all the time. 

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

Here we go...another trophy antler farmer quoting how everyone under the sun is for AR, and we should all just accept it.  Except there's a little problem....do you  notice how his statistics never add up to 100%?  (Ex: 63% support yearling protection, 15% against?)  That's because our trophy antler farming buddies and the DEC wrote the survey to tally "strongly against" and "moderately against" as separate categories, and then didn't count the "moderately against" votes.  He even talks about "home rule" after listing support from the national QDMA office (hmm..local rule?).  It all still boils down to 40% of the sportsman in the current AR zones getting screwed despite the fact that after 7 years the DEC survey shows that a) hunters aren't seeing bigger bucks, they aren't seeming more, "better" deer, and c) they aren't more satisfied with their opportunity to take a bigger buck (the deer kills is still 20% below what is was in 2005).  Even if I accept the idea that the average deer is now 133lbs - under the new plan (at best) we'll be allowed to take one of them.  Under the old rules, we could take 3 of the 90 lbs variety...since I really am a meat hunter, the old rules - and the choice to take the buck I choose, not what some trophy antler farmer tells me I can take - sound much better.  The 40% of us out here who don't want AR have to become more vocal - we don't have these national trophy hunting organizations funneling money into the politicians' campaigns and giving the CO's annual awards dinners, so we need to start writing those letters and making the calls ourselves if we're going to stop this trophy antler farming nonsense. 

[wztirem]

So I gues you are saying there were no 133 pound deer before ar?  If you eat 99 percent venison, yu must not eat a lot of meat in a year, or you must take illegal deer.  Just my humble opinion.  At best 4 or 5 deer a year will not stretch a year if yo ueat it all the time.

He eats only very small portions.

[Meat Hunter]

Fudd most are on the DEC website- which ones do you want?

Steve B good points here are the numbers of bucks of each age before and after ARs taken in my unit 3H from the DEC.

Age                              1.5      2.5      3.5                  Total

Pre  AR 2005            722      428      80                    1230               

Post AR 2010              149      762      443                  1360

Deer 1.5 is a juvenile, 12 years old human, 2.5 is an adult (18-21 human full size but not filled out) and 4.5 mature is the absolute peak (40 in Humans or is it 27?)

Bubba- Great point, are people living on venison legally?  Only 14% of the buck hunters get a buck in NY so most are not getting meat from bucks.  You have to keep your portions small; the first deer I cut up the portions are really small as we get in to the season they get bigger.  My first deer last year was 154 lbs so that was a good start. 

Little deer taste better (they actually don’t) How can you kill three bucks, LEGALLY? It is two bucks only and the AR plan does not call for changing that.

Where do you hunt? County and WMU and where do you live?  Second you’re the 20% strong opposition if you’re in the proposed units.  There are also 8% that are somewhat opposed.  Scientists do not count them because once they see bigger bucks they will move to the support side.  It sounds like whatever you hear now will not change your mind.  Funny thought one club that was total against AR in the beginning are totally for them now. 

I can not believe you guys have been talking about this for 110 pages…

From now on everyone should post the county they hunt in and the WMU. And if they live in another place.

[SteveB]

I'd like to see the link. Those numbers are not even close to the chart I have somewhere.

Not saying they are not true - just the first time anything like that has been posted.

Hunt Cayuga county, 7j and h.

If we post this, and I use my name as well, then posting affliations and NY clubs and associations would

be pertinent as well. Me - see the signature - no other state orgs or clubs at this time.

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

I live in 3C;  hunt in 3C, 3J, and 3M.  I've also hunted in Pa and NJ over the past several years (since my son turned as those states actually allow a hunter to bring his children into our sport before the video games take over.  (As a side note, our experience in Pa involved seeing very few deer and listening to our friends in Susquehanna and Pike counties talk about how good the deer hunting was before AR and how bad it is now)

Here's my data, right off the DEC website.  It points to that fact that forced, mandatory AR in the pilot zone have not worked.  In spite of the "3 year pilot" being allowed to run for 6 years now, the goals the program was supposed to achieve haven't been met.

From June 2011 "A summary of New York's Antler Restriction Program"

Pg 7:  3-8% of hunters living in AR zone have stopped hunting in AR zone

Comment:  That translates to 1 out of 15 hunters opting to hunt ( and spend their money ) elsewhere - if you run a business in the Catskills where the new plan is about to force AR on everyone, you should take note.  Everyone knows there's a recession on, right?

Pg 8:  "Hunters in pilot program generally reported higher levels of buck-hunting satisfaction than hunters in the broader southeastern region of NY, though the recent difference was nominal in WMUs 3C/3J"

Comment:  Hunters in the AR zone don't feel any "better" about their deer hunting because of AR in the pilot zone

Pg 8: "slightly increased levels of buck hunting satisfaction reported by hunters in 3H/3K between 2007 and 2010 were consistent with increased satisfaction levels also observed in the broader region"

Comment:  AR didn't change anything / made no difference.

Pg 10: "in 2010, 56% of respondents in WMUs 3C/3J prefer that mandatory antler restrictions continue, where-as 30% prefer that they be discontinued"

Comment:  This is where I come up with my 40% mark - - 4 out of 10 hunters don't want this program.  As I said in my earlier post, here's another case where the numbers don't add up to 100% - I work with statistics in my job, and the first year the DEC reported the "confidence intervals" for their data - the confidence intervals showed that the simple vote tally was "over-ridden" by the confidence intervals, meaning that the margin of error in the survey could actually show that the majority of hunters were against AR.  One should note that they stopped publishing the confidence intervals in later surveys;  if the margin of error is +/- 5% as is typical with this kind of survey, it's possible that the "majority" here is really only 51%.  Also, I don't agree that one should simply assume that the 14% left out of the math in this quote, most likely "moderately against" AR, are just AR supporters waiting to be baptized in the river of trophy antler farming doctrine.

Pg 11:  "total buck take has generally remained >20% below pre-AR levels"

Comment:  I was in the Ulster Co. Federation meetings in 2004 when we were told that the buck take would return to "pre-AR" levels by the 2nd yr.

Here we are 6 years later - the excuses now are about bad winters, too many doe permits, coyotes - it's like listening to Obama blame Bush for the economy.  Sorry guys - after 6 years, the data says you're full of bull-dung.

Pg 11: "A majority of hunters report being dis-satisfied with (1) the number of antlered bucks compared to anterless deer seen, (2) the number of older, large-antlered bucks seen, (3) the number of older bucks compared to the number of younger bucks seen"

Comment:  Even though the data claims that the number of 2.5 year old bucks in the harvest has increased, the hunters surveyed aren't seeing more or bigger bucks as the AR proponents claimed they would.  It seems we're all sitting in the woods watching itty-bitty bucks walk around - you don't need to spend money on a hunting license if that's what you want to do.

Pg 12:  "Hunter expectations for the Pilot AR program were largely unmet"

Comment:  Again, it's been 6 years, and the claim was measurable changes by year 2.  ARs don't work.

 

From June 2011 "Management Plan for White-tailed Deer in New York State, 2011-2015:

Pg 15:  "Public support is strong when hunting is conducted for food, to protect humans and for population management, though support decreases sharply for hunting perceived as conducted simply for recreational purposes, for the challenge, or for a trophy"

Comment:  Anyone besides me notice that the arguments for AR involve the 3 elements that would be most likely to cause the non-hunting public to drop support for hunting?

Pg 40:  "As expected, the increased harvest of older bucks has not fully offset the drop in yearling buck harvest and the average buck take in the pilot area in 2009-2010 remained 22% below pre-AR levels of 2003-2004"

Comment:  Again, I was at the Ulster Co. Federation meetings before the pilot program was started, where DEC and all the trophy antler farming faithful swore that we'd be back to our pre-AR harvest level, shooting all them huge 2.5 year olds, by year 2 of the program.  It would seem they were..what's the word..WRONG.

Pg 41:  "More non-local hunters indicate that they now hunt fewer days (19%) rather than more days (4%) in the pilot WMUs because of the restriction.

Comment:  Again, if you run a business in the Catskills where the new plan is supposed to impose ARs in 2012...take notice.  19% fewer days means less customer traffic through your doors.

Pg 42: Table 1 - shows 57.4% of NY hunters (this is statewide now) want mandatory antler restrictions.

Comment:  This is another reason I quote 40% against......4 out of 10 of us aren't drinking the trophy antler farming Cool-aid.

Pg 42: "When asked to identify which aspect of buck hunting is most important, 50% of hunters indicated that 'having the freedom choose which buck I shoot' is most important, while 40% indicated that 'having the greatest prospects of shooting an older, larger antlered buck' is most important"

Comment:  Hmmm, maybe I should be quoting 50% against trophy antler farming - nah, some of them are in the 50%.  What they should have asked is "what level of satisfaction would you derive from screwing over your fellow hunters and forcing them to hunt according to your values instead of theirs?" - now that would be an interesting statistic!!!

Pg 43: "No significant change in breeding success or timing is expected from reduced harvest of yearling bucks"

Comment:  There is no biological benefit to using AR as a harvest scheme.  This runs counter to the claims of the AR fanatics, but then their chief biologist is on the QDMA payroll, right?

Pg 44:  "Over the past 15 years, the proportion of yearlings in the annual buck take has dropped 15 percentage points in the absence of mandatory antler restrictions"

Comment:  Those who wish to practice AR can already do so voluntarily, and apparently they are.  This suggests that guys like me who are happy to shoot the 1st deer seen are becoming a smaller part of the hunting population naturally, and we don't need mandatory, forced AR.  By letting guys like me do my thing, you'd actually have a supporter for your AR schemes if done voluntarily..but, too late, the trophy antler farmers have decided that forcing everyone to hunt their way (can you say "gun control for deer"?) is the way to go

Pg 44:  "DEC recognizes that interest in mandatory antler restrictions is strong among some segments of hunters and in some regional areas.  Thus, the 5-year plan calls for continuing mandatory antler restrictions in the existing pilot area, and expanding mandatory antler restrictions in 7 WMUs"

Comment:  If you are one of the 40% in the pilot area who are against AR, you are screwed.  Even though the data shows that AR hasn't made a bit of difference in these areas, your license dollars are simply less important than the hunters in that area who want to trophy hunt.  A question - can anyone else think of a gub'ment program that discriminates against 40% of the affected population?

Pg 53: "This 3/2 tag system gives multi-season hunters the opportunity to harvest a total of 3 deer, of which 2 may be antlered bucks, in addition to any DMPs they may acquire."

Comment:  To the question I was asked above - the current 3/2 tag system allows you to take 3 bucks if the 3rd buck is an antlerless male (button) or has spike horns less than 3" long (and I've found that when you are forced to estimate whether or not a brow tine is 1" or longer, it gets easier to estimate if that little spike's headgear is under 3").

Again, all data I quote is from the DEC website, from their most current surveys.  None of it is from organizations that have been overtaken by the trophy antler farming crowd, or chambers of commerce listening to how much money will be coming in from private leases on property that will be holding all these big bucks in a few years, etc.

It shows, plain and simple, that after 6 years in the pilot zone, the AR's have not worked.  Sure, the bucks are 1 year older, but we aren't seeing more of them, they aren't any bigger than what we saw before ARs went in, there's no biological benefit to the deer herd, and in some cases their has been negative economic impact for businesses that count on hunters for their daily bread.  We need to do away with forced mandatory ARs in these areas so that the 50% of hunters who value "choice" in their decision to harvest a buck can get back their way of hunting - if you still want to voluntarily practice AR, buy your 500 acres, put up the 10ft fence, borrow the Mid-Hudson QDMA chapter's bait plot machine, and have at it.  But as for me and the poor guys like me who only get a few days a year to hunt on public land - let me have back my choice to harvest whatever buck I want.

[bubba]

Fudd most are on the DEC website- which ones do you want?

Steve B good points here are the numbers of bucks of each age before and after ARs taken in my unit 3H from the DEC.

Age                              1.5      2.5      3.5                  Total

Pre  AR 2005            722      428      80                    1230               

Post AR 2010              149      762      443                  1360

Deer 1.5 is a juvenile, 12 years old human, 2.5 is an adult (18-21 human full size but not filled out) and 4.5 mature is the absolute peak (40 in Humans or is it 27?)

Bubba- Great point, are people living on venison legally?  Only 14% of the buck hunters get a buck in NY so most are not getting meat from bucks.  You have to keep your portions small; the first deer I cut up the portions are really small as we get in to the season they get bigger.  My first deer last year was 154 lbs so that was a good start. 

Little deer taste better (they actually don’t) How can you kill three bucks, LEGALLY? It is two bucks only and the AR plan does not call for changing that.

Where do you hunt? County and WMU and where do you live?  Second you’re the 20% strong opposition if you’re in the proposed units.  There are also 8% that are somewhat opposed.  Scientists do not count them because once they see bigger bucks they will move to the support side.  It sounds like whatever you hear now will not change your mind.  Funny thought one club that was total against AR in the beginning are totally for them now. 

I can not believe you guys have been talking about this for 110 pages…

From now on everyone should post the county they hunt in and the WMU. And if they live in another place.

[/quote

statistically 67 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.  17 percent are based on hearsay and 12 percent are based on others opinions.  See what I am saying here?  I was not asking about everyone living on venison legally, I asked about you.  You side stepped that whole isue with more umm statistics, which tends to make me think you are ummm how do I say this tactfully,  unaware of what reality is no no giving others opinions as using it as fact.  There that is a good way. I live in 6a an dhunt 6c.  I took a 190 pound 8 point last year as well as a 115 pound doe.  If I lived only on that meat, or as you said 99 percent, I would be hungry by March.  Oh I passed a nice 10 late ml season as I had enough venison and it was an iffy shot.

[burmjohn]

I live in 3C;  hunt in 3C, 3J, and 3M.

I Hunt in 3J and 3H, working awesome here..  Bigger deer, more meat, and more fun. Same goes for every single person I spoke to in person in these area's as well...

[ANTLERS]

I agree completely with Burmjohn,AR is working in 3H.Grant it,It took a good 4 years for the results to start to be apparent,But an area that was void of decent bucks is now starting to show some decent results.