The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[nyantler]

"I'm wondering why the buck was at the butchers... you can't eat those horns... so no need to get the deer butchered.. " - NYantler- 11/29/11 @ 1813.

"as for "if it's brown , it's down" ...that's how hunters get killed!!" - NYantler 11/22/11 @2234.

Sounds pretty condescending joe. Can you allow a thread to go by without hijacking it for AR promotion? Doesn't seem so based on your history. Those are just 2 of many jerk remarks you made, it only took a second to find them. I'm sure there's more. Lucky for me it's slow today, and I had the time to waste on you.

Can you factually support your statement on the danger of a "brown down" policy? What does killing any deer you see have to do with being a safe hunter? Or are meat hunters just lowly slobs who shoot at any movement or noise?

It was meant to be condescending... and meat hunters are not lowly slobs. I am a meat hunter too...I just don't need to use that as justification for how I hunt.

[burmjohn]

LOL, you're right. I care when people try to force their views on others. But like I've said before, I will not have the deer I kill be dictated by guys like Joe, or anyone else, DEC included. Yes steve, I'm aware that I am talking about breaking the law, & I meant it. That about sums it up for me.

So you break the law? Poacher?

[Dom]

So you break the law? Poacher?

Sound's like he is a law breaker.I dont care if the deer have antler's or not but Alway's follow all hunting law's/rule's.

[nyantler]

There is one nagging quote from the DEC top biologist Jeremy Hurst. That being that there is no biological reason for ARs. Certainly not a direct quote, but it does capture the essence of the quote. What exactly did he mean if ARs have such a significant effect on the health of the herd? Did he lie? If so, why? He actually described the demands for AR as being a social request from hunters. Again, not a direct quote, but essentially conveys the meaning of what he said. Can anyone straighten me out on what the deal was with those widely publicized quotes?

He means just what he says... the DEC is not shooting for optimum herd health.. they're more concerned with finding a balance that doesn't piss off hunters. I agree with him .. there is no imminent biological danger at hand in NY's whitetail population that would be solved by AR's. I probably should clarify that when I speak about AR's I speak in terms of it's benefit to deer management.. i am in no way pushing for AR's in NY.. I'm just laying out facts about the benefits of AR's in general to a sound management concept... if I come on a bit strong it would be because some people refuse to educate themselves on the subject, yet spout nonsensical explainations for why they won't work or pass incorrect information about what they really are designed to do... I thoroughly understand the resistance to AR's... it was worse 20 years ago when I first spoke about them... I think I've said before that I respect someone who opposes AR's and simple says the truth.. that they want to be able to take any deer they choose because thats what they enjoy.. I don't respect someone that says that they don't like them because they don't work or because it interferes with their meat hunting... especially with all the tags available to hunters today.

[nyantler]

LOL, you're right. I care when people try to force their views on others. But like I've said before, I will not have the deer I kill be dictated by guys like Joe, or anyone else, DEC included. Yes steve, I'm aware that I am talking about breaking the law, & I meant it. That about sums it up for me.

That about sums it up for the rest of us too..LOL.. I sure don't want to force any legal hunting views on you..

Edited August 7, 2012 by nyantler

[dave6x6]

LOL, you're right. I care when people try to force their views on others. But like I've said before, I will not have the deer I kill be dictated by guys like Joe, or anyone else, DEC included. Yes steve, I'm aware that I am talking about breaking the law, & I meant it. That about sums it up for me.

What a dink...

[nyantler]

But I'm the arrogant one for trying to explain the benefits of age structure to him... maybe we should explain the benefits of hunting laws to him instead... nah... he won't understand that either.

[Doc]

There is no justifying poaching as far as I am concerned. a possible exception to that is if you are in imminent danger of starvation. But of course if that were the case, the poacher would likely not own a computer or be able to afford an internet account. The appropriate way to handle legal things that you disagree with is to either fight to have the law changed or work to defeat the law from being passed in the first place. Breaking the law is not acceptable.

I am hoping the comment was made by mistake and was made strictly for shock value and a rather spur-of-the-moment poor judgement.

[Paula]

There is no justifying poaching as far as I am concerned. a possible exception to that is if you are in imminent danger of starvation.

isn't that what welfare is for?

[Doc]

isn't that what welfare is for?

Yeah really, there should be no one that is forced to live off the land. We do have systems on top of systems to handle dire emergency survival situations.

I really do believe (hope) the comment about being willing to break the law was a remark that was blurted out in the heat of the argument without any thought.

[erussell]

I would rather break the law and shoot a deer out of season than live off socialism.

[First-light]

I have typed the answer so many times on this forum that my fingers hurt... you fellas need to do a little homework and read up on buck age structure and how it benefits overall herd management. I will say however that age structure alone, without doe management, habitat management, buck:does ratios, isn't the end all.. be all. It's the entire package that creates the healthiest herds given the available habitat. The greatest benefit of age structure is to the young bucks... the older the age structure the less yearling bucks get to breed... giving them time to gain the body size that they will need to make it through the tough winters. Also, a good AR program tends to cause a slight increase in doe take and an increase in hold-over bucks. This moves the buck:doe ration closer.. leaving plenty of bucks to breed does during their first estrus cycle.. producing earlier born fawns and reducing the number of late born fawns. When fawns are born early they have more time to prepare for the lean winters and fawn mortality numbers tend to drop in the herd. If you check any good management program you will find better deer hunting overall... which means more meat for the "meat hunters". There is nothing about AR's that hasn't been proven to benefit herd management or benefit hunters. Hunter ignorance about deer manageement is the only thing that stands in the way of hunters and deer benefiting from a good mangeement program. Ask those that already manage their herds.. I defy you to find a guy that doesn't think the program is beneficial to the herd and his personal hunting experience. It's only the stubborn hunters that know nothing about proper deer management and haven't taken the time to really learn about it or try it that seem to do all the bitching. Those that have seem to like it just fine.

Joe,

Just taking in all this info. A yearling buck is a 1.5 year old? If so these bucks with AR's in place get a pass. I just don't see how age structure keeps these bucks from cruising around chasing does and sparring with each other. I see it all the time small buck chasing does and the big boy follows behind and takes over when the time is right. You say the biggest plus in age structure is that these yearlings get to put on body weight so they can make it through the winter. Respectively I just don't see it. Those 1.5 year old deer are still involved in the breeding season. What age group do you want breeding does? Is it your 2.5-4.5 year old deer?

Good info just trying to wrap my head around it.

[SteveB]

I think what Joe means is that when there are more older bucks, the 1.5 will be less involved. Instead of actively chasing, they will be more observing.

[nyantler]

Joe,

Just taking in all this info. A yearling buck is a 1.5 year old? If so these bucks with AR's in place get a pass. I just don't see how age structure keeps these bucks from cruising around chasing does and sparring with each other. I see it all the time small buck chasing does and the big boy follows behind and takes over when the time is right. You say the biggest plus in age structure is that these yearlings get to put on body weight so they can make it through the winter. Respectively I just don't see it. Those 1.5 year old deer are still involved in the breeding season. What age group do you want breeding does? Is it your 2.5-4.5 year old deer?

Good info just trying to wrap my head around it.

With greater competition and older bucks comes the creation of a hierarchy... young bucks may spar and even chase... but the actually breeding will more than likely done by the older bucks... the big fight will be among older bucks... what really helps the younger bucks though is the fact that as the age classes balance so usually does the buck:doe ratio.. getting most does bred in their first estrus... and decreasing the amount of receptive does for late estrus breeding... shortening the actual breeding frenzy. It's not about "wanting" a certain age group to breed... it's about "letting" the natural process take place with all buck ages being represented... the hierarchy created with the new balanced age structure works all by itself the way it's suppose to.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

But if there are fewer receptive does in the second cycle (there will always be some) wouldn't the bucks then be more likely to cruise even farther and harder to find them?

[Skillet]

So you break the law? Poacher?

Do you think I care how you feel? Blowhard? LOL, I'm saying I won't be told I can't shoot a buck because of age or rack size. Take it how you want. Lots of people think it, I'm saying it. Too bad.

What a dink...

Ooh, Dave, stop. It's the emotional scars that don't heal.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Skillet

[Skillet]

I really don't give a damn what ANY of you think. You guys are funny.

[burmjohn]

OK, so your admitting you poach?

If thats not the case you should clear that up.

Blowhard?

Sent from my DROID RAZR

[First-light]

With greater competition and older bucks comes the creation of a hierarchy... young bucks may spar and even chase... but the actually breeding will more than likely done by the older bucks... the big fight will be among older bucks... what really helps the younger bucks though is the fact that as the age classes balance so usually does the buck:doe ratio.. getting most does bred in their first estrus... and decreasing the amount of receptive does for late estrus breeding... shortening the actual breeding frenzy. It's not about "wanting" a certain age group to breed... it's about "letting" the natural process take place with all buck ages being represented... the hierarchy created with the new balanced age structure works all by itself the way it's suppose to.

So in essence we want equality in the first breeding cycle so all does get bred. Cuts down on the 2nd rut, helping those deer regain strength to make it through the winter. Does will drop their fawns at the correct time of year. Factors that come into play-early rut, late spring snowfall, age class of bucks being killed during season and DMP's.

I'm starting to understand what your saying Joe:) The health of the herd.........

Edited August 7, 2012 by First-light

[Culvercreek hunt club]

But if there are fewer receptive does in the second cycle (there will always be some) wouldn't the bucks then be more likely to cruise even farther and harder to find them?

Has any captive studies been documented that track the fall off of the rut behaviors in the bucks as the number of in heat doe decrease? I mean if there are two bucks and one doe in a 100 acre pen, when that doe is bred and not in heat does the testosterone immediately fall off to non rut levels and the whole process stops because there is no doe to breed?

Edited August 7, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Skillet]

OK, so your admitting you poach?

If thats not the case you should clear that up.

Blowhard?

Sent from my DROID RAZR

Blowhard is a term of endearment, John.

In answer to your question, I hunt in region 8, where there is not yet AR. So, as of yet, I am not a poacher.

[Paula]

Yeah really, there should be no one that is forced to live off the land. We do have systems on top of systems to handle dire emergency survival situations.

i would live off family and friends then maybe the land before welfare. I think some people should be forced to live off the land for the purpose of learning how to be self sufficient instead of me supporting them.

[Grizz1219]

I think I've said this before... I personally believe if you want to help the herd and make hunters happy.. it should have been put to a 1 buck rule.. period.. no restrictions other than that... you want to shoot a spike.. shoot it and your buck tag is done..

[Doc]

i would live off family and friends then maybe the land before welfare. I think some people should be forced to live off the land for the purpose of learning how to be self sufficient instead of me supporting them.

Since we all have computers and access to the internet, I really don't think there is anyone on this forum that is being faced with any of those choices .... fortunately.

[Doc]

I think I've said this before... I personally believe if you want to help the herd and make hunters happy.. it should have been put to a 1 buck rule.. period.. no restrictions other than that... you want to shoot a spike.. shoot it and your buck tag is done..

That is still an excellent point. You want self-regulating restraint on buck harvests? ...... Just make sure that the hunter understands that if he chooses to take a runt, that is a single, unreversible choice. How many times have I heard it said, "The first one is whatever it is and then I begin to "trophy hunt"? More times than I can count. That attitude would change real quick if there were no 2nd chances.

One buck per season regardless of weapon ..... just one. Sounds simple to me.