Posted signs

[abuckn6does]

I beleive the contact info is for those that post property that isn't theirs.  I was on public land a few years ago and came across posted signs.  After having a DEC officer come out and check it.  It turns out it was put up by another hunter trying to keep other hunters away from "his" hunting area.

[letinmfly]

Some questions are answered here...

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8371.html

[ants]

That is not true.  It is not the same as being on your yard.  If there are no posted signs you can not be charged.  If there are posted signs and there is no name or address you can not be charged.  If the posted signs are not put up correctly ( a certain amount of feet next to each other)  you can not be charged............. 

Probably not on the first offense. But if a land owner finds some one on his un posted property, calls the police and the police warn the person that they are on private property, and the trespasser knowingly returns to the property at a later time, they will be charged.

[Doc]

I like to avoid any controversy. I have made it a standing rule to always be able to see at least 3 signs at all times when approaching my property line. That is a lot closer than any requirement I have ever seen and avoids the comment, "Well I didn't see any sign". It is impossible to cross the line without having seen at least 3 signs. Posted signs are cheap (relatively speaking), even the metal ones. And hopefully you very seldom have to ever replace them. The backer-boards that I use are pressure treated plywood and seems to last nearly forever. Between adequate posting and the fact that I spend a lot of time out there, I have really had very little problems with hunter trespassers. I have had occasional problems with some neighbors that think I bought the property for their use with their horses and ATVs, dirt bikes, and camping. But hunters don't seem to be any problem.

[bigpaul]

Thanks for all the input!  I'm in the process of having signs made up and I think I'll have my full address put on them, not just town and State. 

[New York Hillbilly]

I agree with SteveB. As far as I'm concerned this goes far beyond what is legal, it is a matter of respect, or rather disrespect in many cases.

 

People who actively trespass and feel the need to find excuses and loopholes to back up their trespassing ways are scum bags in my opinion, and poorly represent hunters and hunting overall.Trespassers, poachers, jacking deer at night by spotlight and so on all fall into the same category as far as I'm concerned.

 

What is even sicker is when adults drag their kids around teaching them the same crap. 

 

 

[skully]

Probably not on the first offense. But if a land owner finds some one on his un posted property, calls the police and the police warn the person that they are on private property, and the trespasser knowingly returns to the property at a later time, they will be charged.

 

No it will not.  It will never hold up in court.  The officer will tell the landowner to post the property.  Trust me ,  we have had issues for years with people tresspassing.  They rip the signs down,  it is a loophole.  Finally I have put up cameras and gotten pictures of people tresspassing and put the pictures all over the trees.  That with me walking through the woods with a megaphone has finally stopped some of the trespassing. The cops would come take the complaint and would not even walk in the woods.  The DEC would not even show up for trespassing,  They could give a rats ass.  When you are dealing with 100s of acres you have to be hands on................

[ants]

No it will not.  It will never hold up in court.  The officer will tell the landowner to post the property.  Trust me ,  we have had issues for years with people tresspassing.  They rip the signs down,  it is a loophole.  Finally I have put up cameras and gotten pictures of people tresspassing and put the pictures all over the trees.  That with me walking through the woods with a megaphone has finally stopped some of the trespassing. The cops would come take the complaint and would not even walk in the woods.  The DEC would not even show up for trespassing,  They could give a rats ass.  When you are dealing with 100s of acres you have to be hands on................

Being charged and having the charge hold up in court are two different things. It all depends on the judge and ADA. I have been throughout the same thing as you, more than once, and the little puke, arrogant trespassers have all plead. Maybe its a regional thing. Don't know.

[First-light]

Posted signs or not if you don't live at your hunting property or have a close neighbor looking after it 

it will be hunted by the locals, that is a fact.

[stoneam2006]

My last opinion on this as others have said for you who own land and hopefully some day I will to just do everyone a favor and properly post it. ....i am a law abiding hunter and I will walk till I can't anymore and sometimes end up where I didn't think I would.... but if land was properly posted I would as I think we all would turn around and head a different direction..............PS if anyone wants help posting up some land and are close we could work something out trapping or hunting privileges......lol

[New York Hillbilly]

Here is a novel idea.  If you don't own it stay off it. Another novel idea; find out who owns the land, ask permission and offer to pay half the taxes! I post my land but it sure as hell isn't doing me any favors to incur the cost, time, and aggravation.

 

Why should I, or any other landowner feel compelled to post their land as a "favor" for strangers who want to bumble about aimlessly in the woods.  I just don't get what's so hard about this. It seems part of the same handout mentality. You got it and I don't, I want it and I'll take it if you won't give it to me and too bad if you don't like it...after all it's your fault because you've got it and I don't. Oh yeh...and I want it for free! 

Edited September 8, 2014 by New York Hillbilly

[stubby68]

Here's a better idea mark your property lines so people know they are on yours and not where they have permision. Most of the time it has nothing to do with wanting to be on what someone else owns. A little over 400 acres and I can take you to every corner marker and walk every line and be dead on without guessing and without marking it before hand, yet we have every border marked as do the neighbors. There is one neighbor who is from the city and owns 84 acres and every year when they come out we have a problem. Why? Because they think they own more then they do and we have to get out the maps and prove them wrong every time. My point is that most people who own more then a couple acres do not know exactly where there line is so how would someone else know. As for locals, yes there are those that feel they have been there all there lives and they are staying I think everyone has that problem even those of us who do live on or near our property. However the locals probably know the property lines better then you do so do not be so quick in saying they are tresspassing. Posting our property took just a little time when out walking and scouting so why not do it if it cuts down on problems

[Doc]

If I had not insisted (and paid dearly for) a paint marked entire property line from a survey that I had done, it would have been almost impossible to follow my own property line. So, I have no idea how anyone else would have a chance of defining my property if I hadn't kept it marked with posted signs all these years. Seriously, when you are out in the hills and valleys, it is absolutely impossible to walk a straight line from corner marker to corner marker. And if there are bends in property lines, and nothing marking where the line really is, a hunter would have to do a full survey in order to stay off the property. This idea of staying off unposted property is another one of those things that sound a lot better than actually being practical or even possible at times.

 

My posted lines are as much for my own benefit as they are for those trying to stay off my property. The original survey painted blaze marks are now long gone, and if I didn't keep that survey marked on the land with posted signs, the whole usefulness of the survey would be gone.

[Vince1]

My point is there should not be a "right" way of posting - especially being required to post publically personal information.

It simply should be the individuals responsibility to stay off land they do not own or have permission to be on.

For those unwilling or unable to personally accept this responsibility, then something like purple paint on boundary trees should be enough. Several states do this.

 

 

I disagree that it should be my responsibility to know the exact spot in the woods where your property line starts.

 

I hunted public land all last year and it aint always easy to see where one line starts and another begins when lookin at a map. I shot my first deer last year and it wandered on private land after bad shot and being inexperienced I kept pushing it. the land was marked so I stopped. couldn't figure out how to get the property owners so I chalked it up to a lesson learned.

 

if I saw the deer in sight I and couldn't get access to the owners I probably would just go get my deer rather than waist the meet.

 

I do kinda like the purple paint idea but i think having your name and address on it is a must.

[SteveB]

I get it - it must be the responsibility of the landowner to make it as easy as possible for those hunters not willing to be responsible for themselves. The only moral responsible thing is to make the landowner bear the cost and workload. Then to have those seeking an advantage be able to tear down signs, claim ignorance, and get away with it - as some have pointed out happens regularly. And they must have listed personal info publically posted in the woods so anyone can contact them at anytime for any reason.

90% plus of the problems come from those who feel their hunting privileges and wants should come at the expense of the right of landowners. Proof of this here with this attitude:

if I saw the deer in sight I and couldn't get access to the owners I probably would just go get my deer rather than waist the meet.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by SteveB

[G-Man]

it is your responibility to know who owns the property, a 5 ft trangression in the middle of the woods is possible,but if a line is properly posted it is far less likely. My father always told me if you dont own it someone else does!! as for most locals hunting it, there are a few things you can do to minimize it.

1. dont put a chain or cable up at end of the driveway!! nothing says i'm not here than a chain or cable.

2. get a trusted friend/neighbor to make tracks in and out of driveway, or swing in at various times.

3. get a winter vehicle and park it in the drive,

4. put a light in the building camper on a timer.

5 put some time in at the place not just a weekend,a day here or there during the week if possible. my neighbors thought i lived at my camp and worked odd shifts as i would drive the hour and 30 min middle of the week and pop in. when i finially move there permanant the were surprised i didnt already live there.

6. get a mailbox and send mail there(i just use to fill out on line surveys and use camp address , the junk mail flowed)... Mail carriers notice a lot and a place with no mail delivery is always seasonal....

these few simple things really mess up a local that has your place scouted out.

[jonathon88]

              waist the meet           I mean was that really typed.! 

[Doc]

I get it - it must be the responsibility of the landowner to make it as easy as possible for those hunters not willing to be responsible for themselves. The only moral responsible thing is to make the landowner bear the cost and workload. Then to have those seeking an advantage be able to tear down signs, claim ignorance, and get away with it - as some have pointed out happens regularly. And they must have listed personal info publically posted in the woods so anyone can contact them at anytime for any reason.

As I said, most people after they have gotten 1/4 or 1/2 mile in couldn't even trace their own property line if it isn't marked in some way. How on earth can you expect someone else to know where an unmarked line is located. Like I said above, a clearly posted line is as much benefit to the landowner as it is to those wishing not to trespass. It is roughly similar to that old saying that "good fences make good neighbors"....... roughly ... lol.

[skully]

Being charged and having the charge hold up in court are two different things. It all depends on the judge and ADA. I have been throughout the same thing as you, more than once, and the little puke, arrogant trespassers have all plead. Maybe its a regional thing. Don't know.

 

I think it is regional.  There is only 2 DEC officers covering our area believe me when I tell you they do not even care about the trespassing complaints.  Another thing that sucked was we spent almost 3 days properly posting the property and by the 2nd week in gun season half the signs were ripped down.  I found one oldtimer on opening day and when I told him to get out his response was "  I have been hunting in these woods for over 40 yrs just try and keep me off"  So i had to resort to putting cameras and alarm clocks on my own property to discourage hunters to get the f--k out.   Walking through on opening day with spotlights and megaphones.  That seems to be the only thing that works. When you say " I am calling the cops":  they pretty much laugh at you........

[beachpeaz]

I like to avoid any controversy. I have made it a standing rule to always be able to see at least 3 signs at all times when approaching my property line. That is a lot closer than any requirement I have ever seen and avoids the comment, "Well I didn't see any sign". It is impossible to cross the line without having seen at least 3 signs. Posted signs are cheap (relatively speaking), even the metal ones. And hopefully you very seldom have to ever replace them. The backer-boards that I use are pressure treated plywood and seems to last nearly forever. Between adequate posting and the fact that I spend a lot of time out there, I have really had very little problems with hunter trespassers. I have had occasional problems with some neighbors that think I bought the property for their use with their horses and ATVs, dirt bikes, and camping. But hunters don't seem to be any problem.

 

Agreed!  As I stated in my response prior to yours, I take ZERO chances.  I have a ton of issues with tresspassers to begin with.  I eliminate all the beaurocratic BS and just "Overdo" it.  I have signs galure.  I put all my information on the signs.  I make sure that I trim all the branches around the signs so you can see them at any angle.  I gaurantee you that nobody could knowing walk on to my property and say "uh, gee, i didn't know."

 

When I call the police, you might as well just admit you are an idiot.

 

I do not and will not rely on some loose interpretation of the law as to how losely I can cut corners and still be in the right.

 

Sore subject for me.  lol.

Edited September 8, 2014 by beachpeaz

[Culvercreek hunt club]

No. It's no different than someone hanging out on your front yard, and few people post their front yard. Trespassing is trespassing.

You aren't correct on this. If the land is not "legally" posted the only thing you can do is ask them to leave. Then they need to be sent a formal communication  like a certified letter stating the land is posted and they have to permission. THEN if they are caught again you can press charges immediately.

[SteveB]

As I said, most people after they have gotten 1/4 or 1/2 mile in couldn't even trace their own property line if it isn't marked in some way. How on earth can you expect someone else to know where an unmarked line is located. Like I said above, a clearly posted line is as much benefit to the landowner as it is to those wishing not to trespass. It is roughly similar to that old saying that "good fences make good neighbors"....... roughly ... lol.

That's why I'd like the "purple paint law" in lieu of our current rediculous, confusing statues.

Several states have - mark the line after survey with purple paint - no addresses needed to protect the owners property. Last for years and is clearly seen as it is not a color in the woods or on fence lines.

Add to it a version of Ohio's written permission only which must be carried.

Then make the penalties have enough sting to have a deterrent effect rather than the wrist slaps currently in effect.

This all would help the owner to be able to better enjoy their land by keeping the entitlement crowd looking for a loophole to extend their hunt wherever they can.

I can see nothing in this a serious hunter who supports the rights of of property owners wouls have an issue with.

[LI OUTDOORSMAN]

I was told by my local ECO that before we start making any trespassing calls that we must post the entire property according to the rules set down by DEC.

[jrm]

I'm on an ipad this week which makes it difficult to quote and provide external reference links. Apologies in advance for the auto-correct fiasco which may follow.

One thing being missed in the "no different than being in the backyard" comments is the word "unimproved." Your backyard - typically adjacent to your home, typically landscaped -is improved property. There is no need to post that type of land.

I don't see it now, but as recently as a few months ago, the DEC website indicated something as simple as brush hogging would qualify as "improved" land.

The basic principle of the law is that you do NOT have the right to enter private property. The "improved land" wording gives a lot of leeway towards the landowner. It simply acknowledges that in very rural areas, where property lines may be hard to determine, that honest mistakes can be made.

Some views on this will depend on where you live. I think the more rural a setting and the more rural land up you have, the more you and understand the issues.

All land is owned by someone. I absolutely agree that it should be the hunters responsibility - and not the landowner's - to know where they are and respect private property. I also don't believe someone should be charged with criminal treaspass for an honest mistake.

If you are in an area with all private property and no public hunting land, I see little excuse for a trespasser. Just because there is a stretch of property on the side of the road with no fence, this shouldn't give anyone the right to pull over and start hunting, hiking, staving, etc.

On the other hand, if you are using a property you have the right to (public or private) there is always the possibility of accidentally wandering across a border when all the trees look the same.

Putting the rules aside for a moments, posting is a courtesy. You don't want trespassers on your land and are being courteous enough to let them know where your border is. They, in turn, are expected to return that courtesy by honoring your request.

Either the original post or one soon after mentioned technicalities such as posting on trees invalidating the signs. I still don't see any support for that statement. There is only the size and distace requirement which are also mentioned on the DEC site. Pretty simple requirements.

The other link mentions specific months. Not sure if this is actually part of the law. I can't find the EC law right now, but the month listing is not in the NYS penal law.

As I recall, the land owner is NOT responsible for missing or destroyed signs. I can't recall the exact time frame, but believe it was only once per year when the signs had to be placed/repaired. As long as the signs were placed at the required interval, the landowner was covered for the entire interval - whether or not the sign was still there.

What is this purple line thing? Is that an actual line painted in the ground? If so, how does it survive the seasons? How can it be applied through thick brush? Wouldn't it look awful? I'd rather post a few signs than have an ugly line pained through my woods. And how do you handle the groups of people on your property who simply think it is the path for a gay pride parade?

Edited September 8, 2014 by jrm

[Five Seasons]

Let me ask a question that is begging to be asked:

Why not just post it the right way and avoid any possible issues?

It seems like the debate is if people can get away with trespassing if not posted correctly.

Ok then, don't take short cuts. Problem solved. And, if you are one of those people who likes to take short cuts, then do so knowing by simply saving 3 seconds by not putting your address on (or something) might be the same as not even posting it to begin with!

 

there is no debate that private property should be posted and posted correctly. This is just simple preventative maintenance to help keep the riff raff out and the accidental trespasser. We've all been there while scouting, and the posted signs help keep us on the right track. Someone knowingly trespassing is going to do so whether it's posted or not. When having a convo with a LEO, it will help your case, and hurt his if you can show he walked right past a posted sign.

 

THAT SAID.

 

Unposted land does not give someone the right to hunt, hike, ride, fish etc. I suppose in the SPIRIT, not the letter of the law that if an old farmer has not enforced his property for years than it would be tough to fine anyone for trespassing if they'd been doing so for years.

 

We had someone come in from the inside of our line that wasn't posted, just had posted the road side. He actually cut lanes and did all sorts of damage and he knew what he was doing. dragged out all the brush. spray painted the fresh cut limb marks.

 

A phone call to him was enough to get him out.

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Belo