Possible Reasons for a Bad Gun Season?

[BigVal]

A guy I know went to buck and doe in Williamsville and they said they're down at least 25%

[WNYBuckHunter]

Honestly, I have seen just as much deer activity this year as most other years. One property is quiet and the other has been extremely active. I will say though, that the quiet property has not been hunted as much this year, at least not by me, as Ive been after a particular buck on the other property. If I hunt ML season, Ill be down at the "quiet" property since I dont want to be tempted by the buck Ive been after since Oct 16th lol.

[BigVal]

I agree actually I've had a great year overall in 9t and part of 9m.

[skully]

I was wondering if anyone else had any opinions on why a lot of us had a bad gun season here in the Southern Zone. I saw very few deer compared to past years, and many hunters in my area had the same experience. When we did see deer, they were small deer which we would not shoot, and they were few and far between. I have thought about this and have some ideas as to why we are seeing less deer during the firearms season. Here are some of my thoughts as to why:

 

1. Return of a large coyote population.

2. Early opening of archery season (Oct. 1).

3. Early crossbow season, 2 weeks before firearms season.

4. Early firearms youth hunt.

5. Too many deer management permits being given out in recent years.

6. Issuing of "deer nuisance" permits.

 

I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on this. I think some changes will need to be made if we want to experience some good deer hunting in the future. What do you think?

 

[skully]

 

 

Thats easy             Biggest acorn crop in 100 years warmest winter and fall in 100 years.  Case closed  

[The_Real_TCIII]

Where I hunt this years acorn crop is nothing compared to last year but apple trees are splitting from the weight

[mjac]

My opinion,  the deer are here, just noctural this season due to this mild weather.

There is  food in the woods and in the fields so they don't need to move very far at all this year.  I think the lack of hunters is a product of this, since most hunters are weekenders, they don't see any deer and they quit early.  My property borders 2,000 acres of state forest in 9J and last weekend I saw maybe 2 cars on the side of the road, none during the week.  A steady decline from opening weekend.  I've noticed very few hunters walking anymore, most just far enough to sit in a stand for a few hrs. The deer only get pushed  slightly , enough to make them bed down and not get disturbed again.  Plus, the tremendous amount of food plots on private land these days hold the deer tight, they dont need to go anywhere !   I myself only have a buck from week 2 of bow season  and missed two during shotgun, not seeing many myself but I know they are around.   I know I'm not quitting, this is sometimes the best 10 days of the year for me, low pressure all season gets them on the usual morning , evening routes again.

 

[Hock3y24]

I saw more deer Than ever this bow( I think because I'm getting smarter as a hunter... I think) but as soon as the guns went off. Warm weather+food supply they went nocturnal.

[LET EM GROW]

i did not get out much this year since i have got a toddler home, but i saw plenty of deer in my less than a dozen sits, harvested a dang good buck and doe. Last year as well, deer were plentiful. saw a lot of deer last year actually. 

 

They key is to keep pressure off. dont hunt same spots day in and day out. take a week or 2 off(since nys gun season is so dang stinkin long), or hunt a different property.. Deer will not be where human pressure is present. plain and simple. And if they are, there going to hold up and not move until dark hours or until pushed out of there. Less pressured deer move more... 

 

I have a ton of apples and acorns on the ground still in 8P, warm weather must be giving them a lot more options to choose from

[Curmudgeon]

DEC staff I talk to say deer harvest numbers are down in western R4 and eastern R7. The biggest reason is winter kill - the same reason numbers dropped dramatically in '01 and '02. DEC seems to have not realized the extent of last winter's kill until the last couple of weeks. So, that wasn't figured into the number of doe tags that were issued.

 

I photographed more bucks this fall than in any of the 7 years I've been using cameras. That said, we didn't kill a legal buck on the property. That hasn't happened since I moved here in '82. We did kill a bunch of does to address the chronic overpopulation problem.

 

Several people called me about deer curling up and dying in their yards last winter. These are just the deer people saw. What was seen near houses was happening across the landscape. The predators didn't even have to kill stuff. Dead deer were laid out as a feast. Scapegoating predators for population level changes may feel good but is truly simplistic.The coyote population has not changed significantly on a regional level. Coyotes do kill deer, especially fawns. Not enough as far as I'm concerned.

 

Maybe Otsego County coyotes are just incompetent and they are those feared killing machines in other counties. Certainly, deer numbers can't have anything to do with snow pack, record cold temps, habitat, DMPs, etc., etc., etc.

 

 

 

 

[Skillet]

I'm sick of DEC trying to BS us. They must think we're really stupid. "It's lack of participation, lots of mast on the ground, poor weather for hunting, lack of hunter proficiency, blah, blah, blah". I've got some ocean front property you might be interested in, if you're actually buying their lies.

   At least in my corner of 8N, the deer are NOT here. Like I said before, trail cameras don't lie. We have several cams, in different spots on the property, that have always produced a lot of pics. Yes, we have deer this year, but less than half of what we used to see on camera. Unless the deer (& turkeys, there's not many of them around either) have learned to avoid the cameras, THEY JUST AREN'T THERE. Yeah, there was a lot of food this year, but that's happened before. The difference is, in years past that had good mast crops, there were deer around to eat it. There's still apples laying under the trees at our place, as well as a lot of WHITE oak acorns. Don't feed me some crap about the deer not having to move to eat. There's no magical Mary Poppin's style, endless pile of freakin nuts laying in every bedding area.

There were a lot of guys out down my way, too. I didn't notice any decrease in the amount of cars I saw parked, or hunters I saw in town. The only thing that decreased was the amount of shots.

     It's not just my place either. The neighbors aren't seeing jack. Sightings were even way down this year, at my friend's place in Scottsville, & we always used to see a LOT of deer there. That place was like a meat market, up until the last two seasons. Guys I know who hunt all over the region, are not seeing deer. One guy from my camp is a butcher in Walworth. Last week, he was at #74 for the year, where as he's usually into the 120's by now. Funny thing, he had DEC come by to check him out, & he had no deer on the floor. DEC guy said the last two butchers had no deer either. Strange. It's so disappointing that we hunters just suck lately. I'm sure that somehow, all the guys who know how to kill deer were either butchering them at home, or using other processors.

    Look at the amount of us on this site, who are just not seeing deer. It's not coincidence.

Here at work, the amount of calls to remove roadkill deer has gone WAY down this year. Amazing! What a coincidence. People's driving skills must have improved, simultaneously with the decrease in hunter ability!

  Know what else is amazing? There's no huge packs of coyotes caught on camera either. No bears, cougars, wendigos, or any other type of super predator who could wipe out the deer. That's must mean it's not the predators! Shocking, right?!!

  It's the hard winters, too many damage permits, too many dmp's, & a DEC that wants the deer numbers decimated. Simple. They lie, & they'll continue to lie.

   Hunters are part of the problem, too. We sit here and decry the lack of deer, yet how many of us are willing to lay down the guns, & leave dmp's unfilled? I for one, am not filling any doe tags down at our place. Not this season, nor any time in the future, until I see a turnaround in deer numbers.

 

Screw you DEC.

  

Edited December 10, 2015 by Skillet

[grampy]

I'm sick of DEC trying to BS us. They must think we're really stupid. "It's lack of participation, lots of mast on the ground, poor weather for hunting, lack of hunter proficiency, blah, blah, blah". I've got some ocean front property you might be interested in, if you're actually buying their lies.

   At least in my corner of 8N, the deer are NOT here. Like I said before, trail cameras don't lie. We have several cams, in different spots on the property, that have always produced a lot of pics. Yes, we have deer this year, but less than half of what we used to see on camera. Unless the deer (& turkeys, there's not many of them around either) have learned to avoid the cameras, THEY JUST AREN'T THERE. Yeah, there was a lot of food this year, but that's happened before. The difference is, in years past that had good mast crops, there were deer around to eat it. There's still apples laying under the trees at our place, as well as a lot of WHITE oak acorns. Don't feed me some crap about the deer not having to move to eat. There's no magical Mary Poppin's style, endless pile of freakin nuts laying in every bedding area.

There were a lot of guys out down my way, too. I didn't notice any decrease in the amount of cars I saw parked, or hunters I saw in town. The only thing that decreased was the amount of shots.

     It's not just my place either. The neighbors aren't seeing jack. Sightings were even way down this year, at my friend's place in Scottsville, & we always used to see a LOT of deer there. That place was like a meat market, up until the last two seasons. Guys I know who hunt all over the region, are not seeing deer. One guy from my camp is a butcher in Walworth. Last week, he was at #74 for the year, where as he's usually into the 120's by now. Funny thing, he had DEC come by to check him out, & he had no deer on the floor. DEC guy said the last two butchers had no deer either. Strange. It's so amazing that we hunters just suck lately. I'm sure that somehow, all the guys who know how to kill deer were either butchering them at home, or using other processors.

    Look at the amount of us on this site, who are just not seeing deer. It's not coincidence.

Here at work, the amount of calls to remove dead deer has gone WAY down this year. Amazing! What a coincidence. People's driving skills must have improved, simultaneously with the decrease in hunter ability!

  Know what else is amazing? There's no huge packs of coyotes caught on camera either. No bears, cougars, wendigos, or any other type of super predator who could wipe out the deer. That's must mean it's not the predators! Shocking, right?!!

  It's the hard winters, too many damage permits, too many dmp's, & a DEC that wants the deer numbers decimated. Simple. They lie, & they'll continue to lie.

   Hunters are part of the problem, too. We sit here and decry the lack of deer, yet how many of us are willing to lay down the guns, & leave dmp's unfilled? I for one, am not filling any doe tags down at our place. Not this season, nor any time in the future, until I see a turnaround in deer numbers.

 

Screw you DEC.

 

Very well said! 

 

I have been hunting a property for over 40 years, and this is the least amount of deer seen in that time. 

[G-Man]

1 you had a bad season sitting in the same place you always do ,but food source changed,

2. The woods you sit in has grown up and is no longer conducive to daylight movement,

3. The neighboring property changed hands and they walk their dog off leash all year

4. You have become patterned by the deer as you do the same thing and go to same tree/spot every day.

5. You have shot and filled every tag you ever received as did your neighbors and now the population has crashed..using the dec logic of they gave them to me, instead of thinking /surveying your hunting grounds to available and sustainable population.

[Skillet]

I'll agree with your #5 G-Man. The other 4, no. I like to think / hope that most of us are skilled enough, to avoid those mistakes.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Skillet

[G-Man]

Very well said!

I have been hunting a property for over 40 years, and this is the least amount of deer seen in that time.

And what have you done to the pr op erty to maintain optimum habitat for deer, trees grow, fields are turned into hardwood or soft wood stands, bedding areas ripped up for a food plot... ect land is like a living animal it needs to be tended to or it will die.

[chrisw]

I saw a lot of deer during archery season, (I only hunt public land, 9 different bucks and 20+ does/fawns) more than usual, after gun opened there wasn't a deer to be seen. But I got just as many on my cams this year as any other which tells me they ARE there, the weather was seasonably warm and there was an abundance of food this fall. Couple that with gun season being a week later (missing first rut). Some years are good, some aren't. I think too many people just have to search for a reason to blame it on to make themselves feel better honestly. I love being outdoors and hiking and running trail cams, I don't have to fill my tags for it to be a "good year."

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[Skillet]

 Of course forests mature, & everyone knows old growth isn't prime for deer. Our property hasn't been allowed to mature unchecked. Non-mast producing hardwood & softwood is removed, so there are plenty of open spots in the canopy, as well as different stages of regrowth. Tops are left in the woods. Fruit trees are trimmed in the winter, & deadwood removed. As far as bedding areas, I don't know of anyone who would rip one out to put in a food plot. We make sure to stay away from ours (but yes, they are still bedding areas. They haven't grown from thicket into forest). Our place is tended to and cared for. I devote 90% of my free time to bettering it.

Food sources are similar from year to year. Some ridges bear more mast some years than others, & the farmers rotate crops, but that's about it. No new neighbors. We've got plenty of stands, that we hunt only on good winds. We alternate the stands we hunt to avoid getting patterned.

I've never filled every tag I could. I've never been that kind of guy.

[chrisw]

Opening day always opens on a Saturday this year was the 15th ,, 2011 was the 19th it changes every year shifting a day with the calendar ,, this year was early IMO a good year for me just not connecting with what I was looking for

The rut doesn't change IMO it is driven by the amount of daylight which triggers it,, based on the dates around the moon phase.. Not the Saturday date of opening day of gun season...

The opener this year was not the 15th. It was the 21st. And yes another week can make all the difference in rutting activity...

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[Skillet]

I saw a lot of deer during archery season, (I only hunt public land, 9 different bucks and 20+ does/fawns) more than usual, after gun opened there wasn't a deer to be seen. But I got just as many on my cams this year as any other which tells me they ARE there, the weather was seasonably warm and there was an abundance of food this fall. Couple that with gun season being a week later (missing first rut). Some years are good, some aren't. I think too many people just have to search for a reason to blame it on to make themselves feel better honestly. I love being outdoors and hiking and running trail cams, I don't have to fill my tags for it to be a "good year."

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I don't need to kill deer either, for it to be a good season. I've only killed two this year, by choice. I also don't need to find a reason to avoid taking blame for fewer sightings / opportunities. I'm a good hunter, & I can kill deer.

  I too, enjoy just being out there. There's a lot of times I don't pull the trigger, just because I don't feel like taking a life that day. I just find it sad that the woods is a lot emptier than it used to be. Hunting isn't the same. There's fewer deer sightings, less footsteps in the leaves, less heartpounding encounters. There's not as much watching bucks running does, or does tending fawns, there's not as much watching their breath cloud up while they crunch by you on a frozen morning, totally oblivious to you. There's something sacred to me, about sharing the woods with deer.  I don't care how this sounds, but it's lonely without them around. I don't give a crap about shooting less of them. I miss them.

[chrisw]

I don't need to kill deer either, for it to be a good season. I've only killed two this year, by choice. I also don't need to find a reason to avoid taking blame for fewer sightings / opportunities. I'm a good hunter, & I can kill deer.

I too, enjoy just being out there. There's a lot of times I don't pull the trigger, just because I don't feel like taking a life that day. I just find it sad that the woods is a lot emptier than it used to be. Hunting isn't the same. There's fewer deer sightings, less footsteps in the leaves, less heartpounding encounters. There's not as much watching bucks running does, or does tending fawns, there's not as much watching their breath cloud up while they crunch by you on a frozen morning, totally oblivious to you. There's something sacred to me, about sharing the woods with deer. I don't care how this sounds, but it's lonely without them around. I don't give a crap about shooting less of them. I miss them.

I hunt pieces that didn't have much activity this year so I focused somewhere else, I drive 1-1.5 hrs almost every time I hunt just to get to decent public land. I too passed up a lot of deer this season. I'm not saying this is you but most people aren't willing to WORK for a deer, they want to sit in the same spot they've been sitting in for 15 years and complain when they don't kill a deer. I'm successful because I scout at least one full day a week, year round! And I'm mobile, I strictly use my climber now and I'm not afraid to pull up stakes and go find the deer wherever I need to go. Most hunters are lazy, and their results show it. This is especially true with some hunters who hunt private land, if the deer just aren't showing themselves for whatever reason the hunters keep hunting those same spots! MOVE! Go hunt state land if you need to. Don't be so locked into a routine that when it changes you're lost. Have backup plans, alternate lands to hunt. I'm in no way pointing any of these comments at you I'm just venting because I've heard so many people the last few weeks blaming this and that when in reality they should look into the mirror. We've become a hunting generation of instant gratification...

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[Doc]

Actually, the overwhelming preponderance of responses on this site says that members are not seeing anywhere near as many deer as in the past. And then there are a handful of people (damn few) that for whatever reason seem to have fallen into pockets of decent population. Now that is not a very scientific survey by any stretch of the imagination, but it does seem to be saying something contrary to what the DEC is trying to sell. I will say that the membership of this site probably represent some of the more serious and dedicated hunters, and it seems inconceivable to me that they all of sudden got stupid and are unable to interpret what they are seeing and hearing. I do see the DEC as having a motive for making their management practices look successful. I do not see much of a motive for hunters to band together to paint a bogus picture of the reduced herds in their areas.

 

It seems a bit arrogant to try to impugn the abilities of so many hunters to understand what they are actually witnessing in their hunting areas. I know it makes all feel all warm and fuzzy and completely full of ourselves to imply that if you don't hunt in the center of over-populated areas, there just has to be something lacking in your hunting abilities. That warm and fuzzy feeling is usually very short lived.....lol.

[grampy]

And what have you done to the pr op erty to maintain optimum habitat for deer, trees grow, fields are turned into hardwood or soft wood stands, bedding areas ripped up for a food plot... ect land is like a living animal it needs to be tended to or it will die.

 

Minimum of 100 acres of corn and alfalfa.

20 to 30 cords of firewood cut each year.

150 acres of hay cut each year.

Pasture 30 to 40 cows in the summer.

This is a working 500 acre farm! And we have have killed mature bucks from here this year. As most years. Just saying, not as many seen the last couple of years. I'll let the experts sort it all out!

[nodeerhere]

I think the fact that it was way to warm had something to do with it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The opener this year was not the 15th. It was the 21st. And yes another week can make all the difference in rutting activity...

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The post you quoted was from last year

[chrisw]

The post you quoted was from last year

Good call! My bad!

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