Looks like there may just be statewide Antler Restricts.

[Lawdwaz]

This thread is an online street brawl. There has to be at least 5 different conversations/fights going on at once!

 

 

Peace Brother. 

 

 

I'm out unless someone brings me back in................................

[moog5050]

Lawdaz - can you explain your position on ARs again?

 

I hate to see this thread die a premature death.

[Lawdwaz]

Lawdaz - can you explain your position on ARs again?

 

I hate to see this thread die a premature death.

 

To be honest, my fingers are getting whip lash.  Jumping all the hell over the place on this keyboard.  I haven't typed such long winded post ever, especially without hanging a picture or two.........

 

To all I might have offended in my views and posts, I'm sorry.

 

 

Wanna see some pics?

[upstatehunter]

Post them pictures, I can look at hunting pictures for hours

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Post them pictures, I can look at hunting pictures for hours

Be verrrrrrrry careful saying yes to seeing pics in such a general statement with him. your eyes may never be the same.

[jjb4900]

so what's the conclusion, are most for or against antler restrictions?

[dbHunterNY]

I think change should happen.... this isn't 20 years ago.  DEC cares less about antler size and more about deer numbers... tags purchased and filled.  More tags bought and filled, along with more hunters involved to keep it alive.  Out of state hunters seeing high success rates will buy tags too.  In this context antler restrictions have nothing to do antler size and more to do population management.  it's a feasible way to protect young bucks (the majority of buck population).

 

we can shoot between a 1/4 and 1/3 of the adult doe each year and more doe will be there every year to shoot again pending no other natural disasters happen to wipe them out.  to have more doe you need more bucks (1.5yr olds and 2.5 yr olds) to breed them right away.  rut should be fast and hard deer have more time to recover, fawns born sooner, and more deer (fawns and adults both) live to see next season.

 

I think it's weird the dates are different for northern and southern.  I think they should be the same (start the same).  In WMU where deer density is higher/bow only areas/urban areas there can be expanded seasons sure.  Gun season here in 4C and others doesn't have to be as long as it is.  most quit by thanksgiving anyway.  It should be encouraged to shoot doe sooner if one is taken.  give more opportunity for doe harvest sooner than later.  the later you shoot a doe the higher the chances are she's breed and has next years fawn to add to the population.  Adirondacks, catskills, grafton, etc. areas where mature big woods can't hold same number of deer should have different harvest rules and shouldn't be easier to kill deer.  if deer numbers are low, guess what you can't keep harvest numbers up or it'll only make things worse.  more importantly DEC should offer more incentive or allow for more habitat improvement in the area.  without that those areas will never hold more deer.

 

I've learned DEC staff that age deer and butchers can both butcher an age estimate of a deer.  like WNYhunter was getting at.  DEC can only help us at most.  We the hunters are the true reasons for where a deer herds future is headed.  Education is key and don't expect DEC to fix all our problems with the deer.

 

also antler restrictions and our hunting behaviors are a horrible way to manage for trophies as it takes out the largest antlered deer for a given age class.  if you're looking at this to produce giant whitetail antlers like on FourSeasons farm it's not the answer and never will be.  Only way to get remotely close to a true giant in free ranging whitetail is to have more buck fawns being dropped to the ground for a chance it win the genetic lottery.  only then and with age and food will he get that big.

[stoneam2006]

More doe would be shot with full inclusion of xbow in archery season...IMO if the dec need more doe shot...

[dbHunterNY]

so what's the conclusion, are most for or against antler restrictions?

 

I don't know but I'm for it if it includes spread, points on both sides, and something that allows harvest of a buck 4.5+ years old that slips through the first two guidelines (min " B&C gross antler score).  texas goes with 6 points each or one side to catch a mature buck protected by the other restrictions.  whatever.  it'd suck to shoot a 2.5 year old with 6 points on one side and I've been with an outfitter that it happened to.

[dbHunterNY]

More doe would be shot with full inclusion of xbow in archery season...IMO if the dec need more doe shot...

 

yup the perfect time to do it... early.  i don't hunt with a xbow but i don't care.  get them out there sooner to shoot doe if need be i'll hold my bow and wish him/her luck.  not worried about it effecting my hunting.  heck maybe it's a young kid with an experienced adult to supervise... perfect!

[jjb4900]

I don't know but I'm for it if it includes spread, points on both sides, and something that allows harvest of a buck 4.5+ years old that slips through the first two guidelines (min " B&C gross antler score).  texas goes with 6 points each or one side to catch a mature buck protected by the other restrictions.  whatever.  it'd suck to shoot a 2.5 year old with 6 points on one side and I've been with an outfitter that it happened to.

how about this, at least 3 points on one side not including brow points, with a total spread not less than 15", and you have to make sure it's at least 2.5 years old? but, if it's more than 4.5 years old you can kill it even if it doesn't meet any of the previous listed requirements? figure that should keep it nice and simple....and hunting licenses should be priced according to what area you hunt....on a sliding scale of course, if you hunt in an area with low deer densities and no doe tags, you pay a very small license fee.......an area with high deer density and numerous doe tags?..you pay a premium for that license.

Edited January 8, 2015 by jjb4900

[stoneam2006]

I don't know but I'm for it if it includes spread, points on both sides, and something that allows harvest of a buck 4.5+ years old that slips through the first two guidelines (min " B&C gross antler score). texas goes with 6 points each or one side to catch a mature buck protected by the other restrictions. whatever. it'd suck to shoot a 2.5 year old with 6 points on one side and I've been with an outfitter that it happened to.

Man I feel bad for you if you think it would suck to shoot any whitetail let alone a 2.5 year old with 6 on one side....especially if both sides are there

[upstatehunter]

how about this, at least 3 points on one side not including brow points, with a total spread not less than 15", and you have to make sure it's at least 2.5 years old? but, if it's more than 4.5 years old you can kill it even if it doesn't meet any of the previous listed requirements? figure that should keep it nice and simple....and hunting licenses should be priced according to what area you hunt....on a sliding scale of course, if you hunt in an area with low deer densities and no doe tags, you pay a very small license fee.......an area with high deer density and numerous doe tags?..you pay a premium for that license.

Your good if you can ell exactly how old a deer is or that it is 15 wide or more when it is cruising through the woods......I can't tell on point half the time......I always love the, I had a 9 point run past me at 100......your good if you can count points when they are running

[jjb4900]

Your good if you can ell exactly how old a deer is or that it is 15 wide or more when it is cruising through the woods......I can't tell on point half the time......I always love the, I had a 9 point run past me at 100......your good if you can count points when they are running

no sense of humor I guess.......

[dbHunterNY]

Man I feel bad for you if you think it would suck to shoot any whitetail let alone a 2.5 year old with 6 on one side....especially if both sides are there

 

don't feel bad for me... that was my opinion based on my requirements for me harvesting it.  I suppose I should've made that clear.  do I think it's a great buck.  hell yea, but it's still a 2.5 yr old in my mind.  that said if anyone else happily took it... I'd celebrate along with them and not think any less.

[Pygmy]

Amazing....All this commotion about killing a damn deer or two or three...

I guess it's a good thing I'm getting old enough so I won't have to put up with such nonsense for much longer..

I'd like to quote NYANTLER... Shut up and HUNT..!!

[steve863]

Since at least 3 points are of such importance, maybe hunters should take the bucks temperature rectally before they shoot it?  The only bucks that will be allowed to get shot are the ones with a temperature at least 3 points above normal.  The DEC's reasoning will be that they are probably sick and will die anyway, so only those will be allowed to get shot. LOL

 

 

 

[reeltime]

this has been an interesting read, so far its been a mirror image of ar/hr discussions on the hunting pa site. 

 

back in the earlier 2000's  when Gary Alt did the pa game commission road show speeches a lot of folks looked at the mature antlers he held up and bought his presentation hook line and sinker. the doe carnage that ensued for 2 years was ridiculous at best, they may have heard him talk about hr (herd reduction) but it didn't sink in until reality hit.

 

quite a few of the public land areas were just about decimated in population. there was such an outcry from hunters that in many of the zones they did away with the 2 week concurrent season.  most area's now have 5 days of antler and 7 days of concurrent season the rest of the zones have the 2 week concurrent season.

 

since its inception they have made some tweaks to the program;

- at first it was 3 to a side in most zones, in the western zone it was 4 to a side (both counted brow tines)

several years ago the changed the 4 point zone to a "3 up" meaning 3 up on the main beam

- again the antlerless changes.

-they made some changes in one of the zones in the "cwd hot zone"  where antlerless tags were boosted and open all season for doe.

 

without a doubt no program has been as hotly contested and divisive amongst hunters as the ar/hr program in Pa.  to some extent it has helped the antlered deer reach an older age class. without a doubt there were many area's in the state that needed numbers to be reduced but not to the levels they were reduced to.  one of the biggest downfalls of the management plan in pa is the wmu's are too large, they went from county antlerless tags to wmu's similar to what we have here in NY. that encompass multiple counties with a multitude of habitat and terrain intermixed in the wmu.

 

The pgc has changed some antlerless allocations but for the most part the numbers have stayed steady, some property owners have taken that matter into their own hands and posted property to protect the antlerless deer. The hunting heritage and hunting mentality is far different there than it is here... simply put if landowners do not protect the doe's from the hunters the hunters wont protect them from themselves, what I mean is with a large majority of those folks if they have a tag in their pocket they need to fill it at all costs.  I cant tell you how many times i have heard and or read someone say I only saw 2 doe all season and  if I hadn't shot them I wouldn't of gotten a deer, that is why some land has gotten posted to protect the deer.

 

What is going to happen here? who knows. i guess we all have our own ideas and wants,,, whether its for selfish reasons or not.  I have my thoughts on what I would like to see happen but no matter what they do one thing is for sure its not going to stop me from hunting, may have to change my game plan but not gonna bow out of the game. and truthfully for myself its not going to change a thing, for me its a personal choice of deer I want to shoot just as i feel it should be for anyone else to do the same, I am not gonna set here and lie, as I have gotten older I have more of a problem with the fawn kills, more so with how many buck fawns get killed.  I hear all the time there are not many buck around......ayyyupp kinda hard to have racked bucks when people shoot them when they are only 5-7 months old.

 

ny is no different than most states, some area's the herd is below carrying capacity and other area's its over capacity, trying to balance that and hunter satisfaction is a near impossible task, and with some just as in day to day life you will never please everyone.

 

just my thoughts and observations from living with ar/hr since its inception in Pa. so take it for what its worth, they set the laws I abide by them and hunt accordingly, I may not always agree with them but I have to hope the biologists know what they are doing.

 

[jjb4900]

and to think we laugh at other cultures..

[Doewhacker]

Yup..312 posts and the same guy starts it all...Typical.

Huh? Grow a set if you want to try and call someone out, and take some responsibility. You called me a jackass, why because I told you no one cares about your law breaking mullet sporting self? 1. You brag about breaking the law all the time. 2. You sport a mullet. Not name calling that's facts jack.

You delusions and attention whoring are getting worse by the day, I feel sad for you.

[dbHunterNY]

how about this, at least 3 points on one side not including brow points, with a total spread not less than 15", and you have to make sure it's at least 2.5 years old? but, if it's more than 4.5 years old you can kill it even if it doesn't meet any of the previous listed requirements? figure that should keep it nice and simple....and hunting licenses should be priced according to what area you hunt....on a sliding scale of course, if you hunt in an area with low deer densities and no doe tags, you pay a very small license fee.......an area with high deer density and numerous doe tags?..you pay a premium for that license.

 

age is relatively subjective compared to inches of bone, points, and spread.  so it's not feasible to go by age for state wide regulations.  an educated hunter in a co-op within NY doing it within co-op guidelines is different and it could work then.  points don't matter as much as spread but yea what you said works.  heck what we do is 3 points on both sides (can include brow tines and a point must be 1" in length, same as DEC regs) and minimum 15" outside spread.  DEC makes the gross inches 110" for bucks that slip through the cracks and adjust it down the road based on feedback and known cases.  differing license fees based on where you live or hunt will be a tough sell that I can't agree with.  however, the way it is now you can hunt anywhere in NYS pending permission works.  if you bought a license for say 4C but suddenly had an opportunity to hunt somewhere else it'd suck... now you can't unless maybe you went back and paid the difference in cost?  it's messy and wouldn't work too well I fear.  the idea is to make it easier to harvest doe for everyone, in places that need it.  instead of filling all tags with doe late season they should make it the other way around.  say you've got a supersportsman with 3 deer tags (no DMP).... you can fill only one tag with a doe during late season and all your tags with doe during early season.  this would not force some to wait for later season but instead allow them to fill tags early.  still have to use bow or xbow during early season.

[dbHunterNY]

Your good if you can ell exactly how old a deer is or that it is 15 wide or more when it is cruising through the woods......I can't tell on point half the time......I always love the, I had a 9 point run past me at 100......your good if you can count points when they are running

 

age on the hoof doesn't work unless you're pretty educated and not the vast majority of hunters out in the woods.  I'm with you there.  it's not as hard to count points or look at spread as you might think.  you wouldn't know until you're forced to try it either because how would you when you're not looking to begin with.  spread or beam length is more important/conducive to protecting young buck than # of points.  15" works well because it's barely within a bucks ears when relaxed, so basically width of ears which is easier to observe than estimating an arbitrary number of inches for spread.  also I've yet to see a 1.5 yr old buck with a spread of 15" or more.  it's not impossible but rare.  if a hunter can't count points because the buck is running or in cover so thick then maybe they shouldn't shoot based on ethics.

[dbHunterNY]

Since at least 3 points are of such importance, maybe hunters should take the bucks temperature rectally before they shoot it?  The only bucks that will be allowed to get shot are the ones with a temperature at least 3 points above normal.  The DEC's reasoning will be that they are probably sick and will die anyway, so only those will be allowed to get shot. LOL

 

seeings how you're offering a rectal deer exam i'll call you up when I shoot a deer from now on.  PM me #. lol  this apply for doe too?

[nyantler]

 

 

One more thing, don't ever say about fork horns or doe "They're easy to kill".  That is a slap in the face to many of the deer hunters of New York State that aren't as successful as you.

 

Sometimes a good slap in the face is okay... it makes people wake up and realize they're doing something wrong.

[turks]

Late to the party and haven't read all 300 some posts. But imo, ARs are easy for hunters who log the long hours. I use to be a member of a club that leased 550 acres in stier. Had 11 members and we drove all season long. Shot lots of little bucks and had 5 members that only gun hunted till thanksgiving then done. 6 of us bow hunted and gun hunted year round. Bout 7 years ago we implement ars. 8 pt, to the eats spread and 3.5 yr old. After one year half our members dropped out. Shooting mature bucks is not for everyone. Some were even family. Sucked but everyone picked aside. I stayed and am very happy waiting 3 years to get a whack at one of our big boys. Seems that is the average of getting a shot for us. But after this long I don't count points or look at spread, when you see a shooter you just know. Spend all summer checking out deer all over wny it's my thing. Buddy said he saw. "Monster" get hit by a car in elma, I was not far behind him and saw 1 1/2 yr old 6 point. he hunts as well but has different ideas of what big is. State wide would be a complete failure. To each his own. No reason to divide us furthet