Get your vaseline ready NY! Its here...

[Chevy]

Last year we shot alot of doe between 10/1 - 10/15 and still had a chance at a nice buck which happened on 10/9. Now for the reasons cited, alot of guys wont bother hunting the first two weeks and are now two weeks behind on their hunt for the buck they had been scouting and figure they don't have time to be shooting doe with the reduced archery time in the woods. DEC really F'ed themselves and us on this one. Typical NYS.  

[Nomad]

36 pages and nobody pointed out that today there are far better lubes than Vaseline, which it would seem would be best suited for the traditional crowd I guess.....

[growalot]

Oh freak!...there goes my tongue...bit it clean in two....

[gjs4]

Nothing will increase participation beyond lowering the min age and even that's a long shot- it's and age thing reinforced by our culture.... Not costing. Hell- there is a lack of opportunity that negates the ROI for most folks anyway

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Five Seasons]

I'm traveling on business this week and I've been drinking... I'd like to say again how much I dislike this.

[The_Real_TCIII]

I'm traveling on business this week and I've been drinking... I'd like to say again how much I dislike this.

lol I was too, just got home from a Pitt/Cleveland swing. Saw a lot of nice country in Pa

[LetEmGrow]

I have 2 treestates I will hunt first two weeks that might be good for doe, might not. No way I am hunting my better stands.

[Doc]

And increase pressure in adjacent areas that will allow antlered hunting.

You know, when you consider all the screwed up aspects of this latest DEC fiasco, it really is frightening that the future of game management is in the hands of this band of keystone cops.

 

Now here Culver had pointed out yet one more dumb aspect of the plan. This doe-only screw-up will simply shunt bowhunters into areas that don't have this dire overpopulation problem that they are peddling.....Exactly the opposite thing that they are trying to do.

[Five Seasons]

lol I was too, just got home from a Pitt/Cleveland swing. Saw a lot of nice country in Pa

I'm in Houston. The traffic here makes you want to punch a baby.

[Jmythngdmb]

Outdoor News quoted one of my posts from this thread! I'm famous!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I wish someone could get a copy of that article posted on here.

[The_Real_TCIII]

I'm in Houston. The traffic here makes you want to punch a baby.

my travels are usually Boston, Baltimore, Newark, Long Island, Chicago. I appreciate Buffalo more every time I sit in traffic!

[ELMER J. FUDD]

This just in...

 

DEC recently adopted a couple of rule changes that continue progressive actions to address deer populations in portions of the state with too many or too few deer.  One change involved establishing antlerless-only portions of the bow and muzzleloader seasons in several Wildlife Management Units (WMUs) where deer populations are larger than desired and increasing the availability of tags for antlerless deer has not achieved the necessary population reduction.  This change has generated numerous questions from hunters, so DEC has posted additional detail, including a summary of the public comment received during the rule making process, at New Antlerless Deer Hunting Rules for 2015 (www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/103040.html). 

 

 

New Antlerless Hunting Rules for 2015

In August 2015, DEC adopted several rule changes that continue progressive actions to address deer populations in areas with too few and too many deer.

Antlered deer only during the early muzzleloader season in Wildlife Management Unit (WMU) 6A

In WMU 6A, harvest of antlerless deer must be further curtailed to achieve desired deer populations. In this unit, DEC has not issued Deer Management Permits for antlerless deer since 2011 and antlerless harvest has only occurred during the early and late bow and muzzleloader seasons. Under the new rule, until deer populations grow, hunters in WMU 6A will not be allowed to take antlerless deer during the early muzzleloader season, which in recent years has accounted for about half of the antlerless harvest. With appropriate tags and privileges, bowhunters may continue to take antlerless deer during the early and late bowhunting seasons, and muzzleloader hunters may take antlerless deer during the late muzzleloading season. See Deer Hunting Seasons for a map of season dates.

Antlerless-only portion of the bow and muzzleloader seasons in several WMUs

In WMUs 1C, 3M, 3S, 4J, 8A, 8C, 8F, 8G, 8H, 8N, 9A, and 9F, deer populations are resulting in unacceptable impacts to residents and local ecosystems, and greater antlerless deer harvests are needed to achieve desired population levels. Offering increasing numbers of Deer Management Permits (DMPs; antlerless tags) each year has no longer been a productive way of increasing antlerless take, and changes were needed to direct hunter effort towards antlerless deer.

Thus, under the new rule, in these WMUs, deer hunters may take only antlerless deer during the first 15 days of the early bow season (October 1-15, 2015) and all of the late bow and muzzleloader season (December 14-22, 2015; except in WMUs 1C and 3S where there is no late bow/muzzleloader season). Hunters may take antlered or antlerless deer, with appropriate tags, during the remainder of the early bow season and regular firearms season. Additionally, the new rule does not affect junior hunters participating in the Youth Firearms Deer Hunt, which overlaps with the early bowhunting season in many of these WMUs. See Deer Hunting Seasons for a map of season dates.

The concept of this change originated from hunter suggestions during the scoping process for DEC's deer plan in 2009, received favorable support from hunters in a 2010 deer hunter survey, and was subsequently included in DEC's Management Plan for White-tailed Deer in New York State, 2012-2016 following a public comment period. Specifically, the plan outlines a 3-phase process to increase antlerless harvests where needed:

Strategy 2.2.6: Where deer populations are above desired levels and DMP quotas may exceed applicant base, initiate a progressive and adaptive approach to increase antlerless harvest by: (Phase 1) expanding the use of Bonus DMPs; (Phase 2) making a portion of the early bowhunting season and late muzzleloading season valid only for antlerless deer; and (Phase 3) implementing a special antlerless-only season for muzzleloader hunters in these areas.

DEC tested the potential to expand the Bonus DMP program (Phase 1) in 2013 by exploring the impact of issuing Bonus DMPs in WMUs 1C, 3S, 4J, and 8C as antlerless-only rather than either-sex tags as they had been previously. This was an important step to reduce the workload of administering the program and focus hunters on antlerless deer, a critical factor for potentially expanding the program. However, results of the trial suggest that expansion of the Bonus DMP program would not yield the desired increase in antlerless take. Harvest reporting data also indicate that hunters are not limited by the availability of antlerless tags in the WMUs of the rule change. So, DEC moved on to Phase 2.

Over the next couple years, DEC will continue to monitor harvests and population indices and will modify rules for antlerless harvest as needed.

Public Comment on the New Antlerless Hunting Rules

During the public review period for the recent rule change, DEC received comments and questions from many hunters. A summary of these comments and DEC's response is copied below.

Antlered-only early muzzleloader season in WMU 6A

Comment: Several writers expressed support for the proposed action to restrict harvest to antlered deer only during the early muzzleloader season in WMU 6A. Additional suggestions to reduce antlerless harvest, included elimination of antlerless harvest across all seasons, elimination of the late muzzleloader season, or reduction of Deer Damage Permits and DMAP permits to landowners.

Response: Currently, about half of the adult female deer harvest in WMU 6A occurs during the early muzzleloader season. By allowing only take of antlered deer during this season, the Department expects the overall adult female harvest to be reduced sufficiently to stimulate desired population growth without completely eliminating antlerless harvest or restricting landowners that experience deer-related damage.

Comment: Several writers disagreed that the deer population is lower than desired or that the deer population should be allowed to increase. One commenter requested that DEC delay implementation of the change for WMU 6A until it can show that a larger deer population will not have adverse impacts on forest regeneration or species of greatest conservation need.

Response: The target deer population for WMU 6A, established in 2009, was based on the impacts experienced by and recommendations of local stakeholders. Trends in harvest data suggest the deer population has been below the target level since then. USDA Forest Inventory Analysis data indicates that regeneration in the St. Lawrence / Champlain Valley ecoregion, which encompasses WMU 6A, is good or very good in over 70% of sample plots. Ecological and human impacts will be considered when new objectives are established, and the Department does not anticipate substantial changes in impacts due to the modest deer population increase intended with this rule.

Antlerless-only portion of the bow and muzzleloader seasons in several WMUs

Comment: One writer claimed that hunters or hunting groups had not been surveyed on this issue prior to the rule being proposed.

Response: The option to make part of the bow and muzzleloader season valid for antlerless deer only in areas where additional antlerless harvest is necessary, originated from hunters during the scoping process for DEC's deer management plan. Then, in the 2010 Deer Hunter Survey, 55% of hunters identified that, where needed, an antlerless-only portion of the bow and muzzleloader seasons was a good idea, while only 28% believed it was a bad idea. The survey found similar support for the concept among bowhunters and gun hunters. In 2011, when DEC released a draft deer plan for public comment, the concept of an antlerless-only period during bow and muzzleloader seasons was identified as phase-2 of a 3-phase process to progressively increase harvest pressure on antlerless deer where needed. Following review of the public comment, DEC adopted the plan including this 3-phase process.

Comment: Several writers disagreed that deer populations are higher than desirable, suggesting that situations of deer abundance are localized in suburban areas or on private land and that the 2014-15 winter may have further reduced the deer population.

Response: DEC compiles data from entire WMUs, including public and private lands, and these data reflect deer populations that have remained above desired levels for the past decade despite efforts to reduce populations through increased allocation of antlerless deer tags. While the 2014-15 winter was more severe than average and may contribute to population reduction in the WMUs associated with this rule, strong deer productivity and recent harvest trends support the need for additional antlerless harvest during hunting seasons.

Comment: Several comments supported the proposal, agreeing that more antlerless deer need to be harvested and that refocusing hunter effort on antlerless deer will help limit population growth. Several writers suggested that the rule be extended into other parts of New York

Response: While there are other WMUs in New York with deer populations above desired levels, DEC contends that reduction in these units may still be achieved by increasing the availability of DMPs. If increased allocation of DMPs is unable to reduce the population, DEC would then proceed with the 3-phase approach, as appropriate, in these WMUs.

Comment: Many writers expressed belief that 15 days of antlerless-only hunting during the early bowhunting season will be ineffective because harvest by bowhunters typically constitutes a relatively small portion of the overall deer harvest, suggesting that greater impact could be achieved by moving the antlerless-only period into a portion of the firearms season. Additional suggestions to potentially increase antlerless harvest included: establishing an early or late muzzleloader season for antlerless deer, allowing only 1 buck per hunter per year, longer bow or muzzleloading seasons, eliminate the $10 application fee for DMPs, allow hunters to use bait, establish an open season (all year) for antlerless deer, and making the DMPs valid for female deer only rather than antlerless deer which includes male fawns.

Response: Establishing an antlerless-only period during bow and muzzleloader seasons was identified in DEC's Management Plan for White-tailed Deer in New York State, 2012-2016, as phase-2 of a 3-phase process to progressively increase harvest pressure on antlerless deer where needed. DEC agrees that greater harvest of antlerless deer might be achieved through an antlerless-only portion of the regular firearms season rather than or in addition to portions of the bow and muzzleloader season. Likewise, DEC anticipates that greater harvest of antlerless deer would occur with a new antlerless-only muzzleloader season, identified as the phase-3 action. However, the 3-phase approach was developed using hunter feedback, evaluated in the 2010 deer hunter survey, and incorporated into DEC's deer management plan after a public review process. DEC does not consider this an appropriate time to deviate from the adopted plan.

During development of the 3-phase process, DEC considered other options that were also evaluated in the 2010 deer hunter survey. Options such as lengthening the late bow and muzzleloader season or creating a new season for primitive muzzleloaders were viewed less favorably by hunters than making part of the bow and muzzleloader seasons valid for antlerless deer.

DEC appreciates the other suggestions. However, some would require changes in law by the New York State Legislature (e.g., changing DMP application fees or allow use of bait), and others (e.g., one buck per hunter) are being evaluated in relation to buck management strategies. DEC welcomes additional public input on this topic whenever the plan is updated or revised.

Comment: Many writers objected to the proposed prohibition on taking a buck during the first 15 days of the early bow season; a few also objected to the antlerless-only requirement during the late bow and muzzleloader season. Many comments suggested that without legal opportunity to take a buck, hunters will forego hunting during the antlerless-only portions of the season or hunt in other WMUs, so antlerless harvest will not increase. Others expressed concern that some hunters will not comply with the rule if the opportunity to take a "trophy" buck arises during the antlerless-only portion of the season. Some hunters also expressed that their preferred time to hunt for bucks was during the first two weeks of the early bow season or during the late seasons. Others felt that they are entitled to take a buck because the purchase of a bow or muzzleloading privilege includes an either-sex tag. Many hunters suggested DEC consider an earn-a-buck system as an alternative.

Response: DEC recognizes that many hunters value the opportunity to take antlered bucks during any season and that is a motivating factor for hunting. However, there is a critical need to increase harvest of antlerless deer in these WMUs. The proposed rule does not eliminate buck harvest opportunities but simply changes when it can occur to emphasize the necessity of antlerless harvest. We hope that hunters in these WMUs will help meet this management need. Reported harvests during the early bowhunting season in these WMUs are disproportionately skewed toward antlered bucks compared to other hunting seasons. Greater cooperation by bowhunters in removing antlerless deer in similar ratios as during other seasons and increased harvest of antlerless deer during the late seasons will benefit the broader public who are affected by negative deer-related impacts. Opportunities to take an antlered buck will remain during the latter two-thirds of the early bow season and all of the regular firearm season.

DEC did consider an earn-a-buck system which would require that hunters take one or more antlerless deer before they are eligible to harvest a buck or before they are eligible to take a second buck. This approach has been effective in other jurisdictions. However, earn-a-buck strategies are generally unpopular with hunters and entail high logistical costs to implement and enforce. An earn-a-buck system may be necessary at some point in the future, but we believe the Phase-2 and Phase-3 strategies are reasonable preliminary options.

Any concern about hunters having to pass up a shot at a buck during the antlerless-only portion of the season would apply to earn-a-buck systems as well, at least until the hunter is successful in harvesting an antlerless deer, which could be more than 15 days into the season.

Comment: DEC should use incentives, such as new or longer seasons, to increase antlerless harvest rather than disincentives.

Response: In 2012, DEC extended the Southern Zone bow season an average of 15 days by beginning the season on October 1 of each year. This gave bowhunters additional time to hunt, and some bowhunters have used this time to take antlerless deer. A principal incentive would be for hunters to help achieve the desired deer population level in the identified WMUs. Additionally, phase-3, if needed, would provide new opportunity.

Comment: Several writers disagreed with DEC's statement that increasing the number of DMPs available is no longer a productive way to increase antlerless harvest. They suggested that unlimited DMP tags should be available in the WMUs with overabundant deer.

Response: In these units, hunters may acquire up to four DMPs through the initial draw and first-come-first-serve issuance periods, have an two DMPs transferred to them, and receive an either-sex and antlerless-only tag with their purchase of bow and muzzleloader hunting privileges. Additionally, during the late seasons, the regular big game tag is valid for deer of either-sex. Hunters have opportunity for up to nine tags that are valid for antlerless deer. However, harvest report data from 2014-15 reveal that only 1.2% of successful hunters reported taking 4 or more deer, and no hunter reported taking a total of more than 7 deer. The past couple years, there have still been left-over DMPs available in these units at seasons end. Hunters do not appear to be limited by tag availability.

Comment: Several people suggested that limited access to private property for hunting is the primary problem affecting deer population management in these areas.

Response: Restricted hunting access can limit the ability of hunters to reduce local deer populations, particularly when large blocks of land are not hunted. However, several surveys of landowners in New York have found that upwards of 80% of private lands are hunted. Yet many of these lands are hunted insufficiently with inadequate removal of antlerless deer. The current rule intends to refocus hunter effort toward antlerless deer during a portion of the hunting season.

Comment: There was no mention if the early bowhunting season will revert to either-sex when the desired deer population is reached.

Response: DEC will adapt hunting rules as needed and may revert to previous rules if appropriate.

 

 

[growalot]

ya they can just bite........never mind

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ill be killing my does as I normally do. I wont be pressuring the bucks on the property until I can hunt them. Simple as that.

[Doc]

Ha-ha.... I see all this BS as adding another 36 pages to this thread. There is a lot of items in the "Comments and Response" section that need to be examined and commented on.

 

First of all is the response that indicates that we all got exactly what we asked for. Specifically:

"Then, in the 2010 Deer Hunter Survey, 55% of hunters identified that, where needed, an antlerless-only portion of the bow and muzzleloader seasons was a good idea, while only 28% believed it was a bad idea. The survey found similar support for the concept among bowhunters and gun hunters."

 

Now look, I really feel bad about flat out calling them liars, but let's just say that it truly stretches all bounds of credibility to think for a moment the bolded text above is anything short of a lie. Seriously, is there anyone who really believes that bowhunters ever supported this idea with anything close to a 55% to 28% majority, or any kind of majority at all. Look, I may not be the sharpest tack in the box, but it truly is insulting to even try to push that lie past anyone.

 

Also, all these survey results that are being thrown around here seem to indicate that no one should really be surprised that this antlerless only deal is limited to bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters only instead of the more effective regular gun season. Obviously when all hunters are lumped together, the majority percentages (gun hunters) would of course prefer that the minority gets it stuck to them. Why would the results come out any different. They knew that when they asked the survey questions. This does show that surveys can and are rigged to come out with the results that they wanted in the first place.

 

[BellR]

It could have just been how the question was phrased.  If it went something like,

 

"Which would you prefer? 1) The first 15 days of bow season changed to antlerless only or 2) An early muzzleloader season put in place"

 

I can definitely see there being an overwhelming majority in support of these changes. 

[wolc123]

Contrary to what the "experts" are saying on this thread, this will may achieve the desired effect: to reduce the deer population in specific zones that are currently "infested" with way too many deer. I live in one of them zones, and it is a pain dodging deer in the car every day on the way too and from work. It is hard to grow much shrubbery around the house, and growing pumpkins in the garden is now impossible without an electric fence.

The situation is not as simple as it appears on the surface. In those first two weeks in the doe-only zones, bow-hunters will not directly reduce the deer population. Few, if any that I know have interest in killing does anyhow. For that reason, they will spend those two weeks in other zones, where killing bucks is legal, taking their human scent with them to those areas. There, they may kill their bucks and be satisfied.

Bow-hunting had been rapidly gaining in popularity, in my zone at least, over the last 5 years or so. All that human scent in the woods early has hurt the gun hunting, resulting in lower overall harvest numbers, and especially antlerless. Years ago, when gun season opened, probably half the local herd was polished off on opening day. Now the deer are mostly nocturnal by opening day of gun season. The only thing that makes them go nocturnal even faster is when they start hearing the guns go off. That is why the muzzleloader is definitely not the answer to the problem.

The bow is quiet, and that is good, but what makes it especially ineffective as a doe-killing weapon, is the need to draw it with the deer in close. In these "infested" zones, does almost always travel in groups. Drawing a bow with all them eyes around is seldom a slam dunk. They use the "convoy" system, just like the allies used against the axis submarines in WWII.

This season, with the new "doe-only" restrictions in place, and another change put in place last season, the situation is perfect for a doe-slaughter like we have never seen. The "secret-weapon" that will take them down is the crossbow. It has the silent-stealth of the bow, but does not need to be drawn with the deer in close. Thanks to the big reduction in human scent early, they wont smell it or see it coming. They will have no idea what hit them when the crossbow opens up at the end of archery season. I almost feel sorry for the does this fall (until I look at some of the shrubs they chewed off last winter or fork over some cash to buy my kids pumpkins).

Our venison supply is getting down, I just defrosted the freezer, sighted in my crossbow, and I planted the last of my food-plots tonight. I can't wait for those last two weeks of southern zone archery season when I can start working on the two DMP's I have now and hopefully two more after November 1. Hopefully I can fill my archery & ML buck and doe tags up in the northern zone before then also. I am more than ready to do my part.

Edited August 29, 2015 by wolc123

[Doc]

Anyone who truly is interested in see the deer population reduced should be absolutely livid that the attempt to do so is being squandered on the most ineffective season available with no similar acts happening during the gun season. It is hard to take this as a serious population reduction activity when it is relying only on bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters for handling the task.

[The_Real_TCIII]

Anyone who truly is interested in see the deer population reduced should be absolutely livid that the attempt to do so is being squandered on the most ineffective season available with no similar acts happening during the gun season. It is hard to take this as a serious population reduction activity when it is relying only on bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters for handling the task.

Agreed. If opening day of gun was doe only more does would be taken than this entire nonsense plan. This is just so they can say "okay you had your chance, now we have to try early ML" Edited August 29, 2015 by The_Real_TCIII

[Doc]

Agreed. If opening day of gun was doe only more does would be taken than this entire nonsense plan. This is just so they can say "okay you had your chance, now we have to try early ML"

Absolutely! There is no doubt in my mind that that is what they have in mind. They have been pushing putting guns in bow season. To a limited extent they already have. And now they are going to force what they have wanted for years..... an early muzzleloading season. It's just that they have feel a need to come up with some extravagant plan to do it.

 

There is nothing else that makes sense. That is why I call it a war on bowhunters. As far as the muzzleloader hunters are concerned, they should be all for this stuff, because the end result will be a brand new early muzzleloader season, which is the DEC plan from the get-go.

[Larry]

Hey 13 more pages and we hit 50. Let’s keep making ******** up so we can keep this going. I like the opening day of gun being doe only that’s a good one. I would like to hear more on that. So is that going to be the whole state or just the 10 wmu’s. when you make ****** up you have to put In some details on how to make it work  

Edited August 31, 2015 by WNYBuckHunter
Edited for language. Please see forum TOS.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Hey 13 more pages and we hit 50. Let’s keep making ****** up so we can keep this going. I like the opening day of gun being doe only that’s a good one. I would like to hear more on that. So is that going to be the whole state or just the 10 wmu’s. when you make ******* up you have to put In some details on how to make it work  

Why dont you tell us how a really feel.  Maybe just cut back on the language a bit. I can remember a time when i got my hand slapped for less on this site. lol

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Absolutely! There is no doubt in my mind that that is what they have in mind. They have been pushing putting guns in bow season. To a limited extent they already have. And now they are going to force what they have wanted for years..... an early muzzleloading season. It's just that they have feel a need to come up with some extravagant plan to do it.

 

There is nothing else that makes sense. That is why I call it a war on bowhunters. As far as the muzzleloader hunters are concerned, they should be all for this stuff, because the end result will be a brand new early muzzleloader season, which is the DEC plan from the get-go.

Even early muzzle wont be fun if all i can do is blast flat heads!  Wont waste the time or money on that tag.

[wolc123]

We will definitely have to see how this plays out. I am excited by the change and applaud the DEC for getting it thru. The sharp reduction in early bow-hunting pressure will be a God-send for us crossbow hunters in these "infested" zones where the deer have enough cover to go nocturnal soon after they sense some pressure. I will be sure and post back, how many DMP's I am able to fill this fall with my $250 crossbow. Maybe I will even get to post a few more photos of "heart" shots.

They are not giving us any more time but this will greatly multiply the quality of the little bit we do get before gun season opens. We had the peak of the rut last year, now we have it without all that extra human scent in the woods. I would settle for a small compromise with the elitist bowhunters who are still pushing hard to keep the crossbow out. Give us full inclusion, in these zones only, in exchange for a return of legal buck harvest throughout.