D.E.C. seeking hunter input on the rescinding 2015 of antlerless only

[Jmny]

It is time for the hunters of the stateless out concerning the mishandling of the overpopulation of does in certain counties by making those management area, antlerless only for a portion of the archery season. The implementation of this 2015 ruling only served to take hunting days away from a percentage of hunters. Don't believe it accomplished its intended goals.

Instead of adapting a new rule that punishes(restricts) hunters, they should establish a new rule that provides incentive to the hunters to take a doe or two. The fact is there are those hunters that don't believe the taking of does are necessary to marry brain a healthy herd. Or whose misplaced sense of worth as a hunter is only qualified by the taking of eight point or better buck.

So, my recommendation would be in dump that have an overpopulation of antlerless deer, set up a programmers the taking of two antlerless deer would qualify a hunter for a second antlerless deer either in late season, or a newly established (week,10days or 2week season).

Intellectually, I believe this would provide more of an incentive hunters in the affected dump to take antlerless deer.

As the dump comes into the prescribed buck/ doe ratio the incentive for that dump would be rescinded the following year.

In closing, I hope all concerned hunters take the time to address the DEC request for input. Don't want to suffer through another season of watching a trophy walk by because it's illegal to shoot

Follow up (please)

John McGough

[Doc]

Ok, with much difficulty, I think I got the gist of this post. And, I believe that I might even agree with it. However at the risk of being called the "spelling and grammar police", I have to say that a little time re-reading some of these posts probably would have avoided a lot of head-scratching. Seriously, I got totally lost a few times as I struggled more with the wording than the topic. I still have not figured out what the thought was when the word "dump" was thrown in to several sentences. What the hell does that mean?

 

I am not trying to claim perfection in the English language, but I do try to make my posts readable. And I do that by re-reading the message before poking the "Post" button and fixing some of the glaring confusion.

[GreeneHunter]

If I were going to make a long post (which I usually never do) I would fire up MS Word type it in there , do all the grammar /spelling checks and then copy and paste into the Forum .... just a thought !

[JimMac]

I think its that dang auto speller turning dmp into dump  ..

[Jmny]

Doc

Thank you for pointing out my inconsistencies in the vocabulary/grammer of my posting. Of course my initial response was defensive. I could blame my accident and the resulting traumatic brain injury (19 day coma,3 months in patient hospital status and three month out patient rehabilitation to recover everything but my ability to walk.

But that would be to easy and incorrect. But my 6 1/2 years of basically staring at four walls( except when a friend or family member can take me fishing or hunting) were an indirect influence on my posting.

The real culprit is my laziness. I should always re-read my messages before posting. So to make my post more grammatically correct and easier to comprehend.

It's time for the hunters of the state to speak out concerning the mishandling of over population of does in certain DMP's, by making those management areas, antlerless only for a portion of the archery and muzzleloader seasons. The 2015 implementation of antlerless only served to take hunting days away from a percentage of hunters. Don't believe it will accomplish its intended goal.

Instead of adapting a new rule that punishes (restricts) hunters, they should establish a new rule that provides incentive to the hunters to take a doe or two.

The fact his there are a percentage of hunters that don't believe the taking of antlerless are necessary to maintain a healthy herd. Or,whose misplaced sense of worth as a hunter is only qualified by taking of an eight point or better deer.

So, my recommendation would be, in DMP's that have an over population of antlerless deer, set up a program were taking two antlerless deer would qualify a hunter to receive an additional either sex tag for the late season or a newly formed seven to fourteen days added to the current late season. Intellectually I believe this would provide more of an incentive to hunters in the effected DMP's to take anterless deer. As a DMP unit comes into the desired buck/doe ratio, the incentive for that DMP would be rescinded the following year.

In closing, I hope that all concerned hunters take the time to address the DEC's request for input. Don't want to suffer through another experience of letting a trophy buck walk by because it wasn't legal to shoot.

Follow up, Please

John M

Doc,

If, I was going to be called out on my laziness for submitting a grammatically flawed posting, at least it was by the person that I enjoy reading the most on this site. Your postings are the most thoughtful and well written. And it is always a pleasure to read.(although initially, this one was hard to accept)

As far a length of posting, lack of mobility, being contained within four walls( lack of social interaction) probably attributes to my lenthy postings. My apologies to all with a short attention span. Of course the length of the posting is visible prior to the decision to read. So, if length of posting is important, just skip it.

[Paula]

I think its that dang auto speller turning dmp into dump  ..

 

Auto correct sometimes can be the biggest pain, it wants to do what you don't want it to.

But at least you can count on people here to point out how wrong you are

[wolc123]

In my opinion, the single most effective thing they could do, in the zones which have consistently fallen short of antlerless harvest goals,  would be to allow the use of the crossbow throughout early archery season.   The crossbow would be particularly lethal if it could be employed in the early part of the season, before the deer realize they are being hunted.   As it stands now, the antlerless deer tend to be driven mostly nocturnal by the last two weeks when the crossbow is finally legal.   I would be ok with a compromise, to appease the small but well-connected group of selfish anti-crossbow bowhunters, that would allow the crossbow to take only antlerless deer until the last two weeks, while they could take either/or with a conventional bow throughout the season. 

 

I would expect a crossbow to be at least 10 times more effective at killing antlerless deer in these overpopulated zones than a conventional bow.   It is rare to find antlerless deer traveling alone in these zones and it is very difficult to make the draw of a regular bow when so many sets of eyes must be avoided.   By combining the silence of a bow, and removing the need to draw with the deer in close, the crossbow may represent "the ultimate weapon" to finally get these populations under control.   Letting the muzzleloaders in early, as many seem to think will happen, will backfire with a "bang".   That will only force the deer to become nocturnal even earlier.         

[shawnhu]

I think its that dang auto speller turning dmp into dump ..

He must be using a Kindle....

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[gjs4]

Should read- "dec accepting outgoing ny commentary to an unopened email account- be prepared to get aggravated in 2017".... But it was too many words

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited February 5, 2016 by gjs4

[Marion]

Please do rescind that stupid a$$ rule

You Can't Beat My Meat!

[Larry]

Look first of all in the WMU’s where the doe only was put in place it wasn’t because hunters are unwilling to kill does. Those WMU’s most of the land is in privet hands. So if you can’t get access to the deer you can’t kill them. No matter what incentives or rules put in place you are not going to kill more does. It’s as simple as this if we can’t get to them we can’t kill them.

[phade]

Then why limit the ones who do have access? Riddle me that?

[Doc]

Doc

Thank you for pointing out my inconsistencies in the vocabulary/grammer of my posting. Of course my initial response was defensive. I could blame my accident and the resulting traumatic brain injury (19 day coma,3 months in patient hospital status and three month out patient rehabilitation to recover everything but my ability to walk.

But that would be to easy and incorrect. But my 6 1/2 years of basically staring at four walls( except when a friend or family member can take me fishing or hunting) were an indirect influence on my posting.

The real culprit is my laziness. I should always re-read my messages before posting. So to make my post more grammatically correct and easier to comprehend.

It's time for the hunters of the state to speak out concerning the mishandling of over population of does in certain DMP's, by making those management areas, antlerless only for a portion of the archery and muzzleloader seasons. The 2015 implementation of antlerless only served to take hunting days away from a percentage of hunters. Don't believe it will accomplish its intended goal.

Instead of adapting a new rule that punishes (restricts) hunters, they should establish a new rule that provides incentive to the hunters to take a doe or two.

The fact his there are a percentage of hunters that don't believe the taking of antlerless are necessary to maintain a healthy herd. Or,whose misplaced sense of worth as a hunter is only qualified by taking of an eight point or better deer.

So, my recommendation would be, in DMP's that have an over population of antlerless deer, set up a program were taking two antlerless deer would qualify a hunter to receive an additional either sex tag for the late season or a newly formed seven to fourteen days added to the current late season. Intellectually I believe this would provide more of an incentive to hunters in the effected DMP's to take anterless deer. As a DMP unit comes into the desired buck/doe ratio, the incentive for that DMP would be rescinded the following year.

In closing, I hope that all concerned hunters take the time to address the DEC's request for input. Don't want to suffer through another experience of letting a trophy buck walk by because it wasn't legal to shoot.

Follow up, Please

John M

Doc,

If, I was going to be called out on my laziness for submitting a grammatically flawed posting, at least it was by the person that I enjoy reading the most on this site. Your postings are the most thoughtful and well written. And it is always a pleasure to read.(although initially, this one was hard to accept)

As far a length of posting, lack of mobility, being contained within four walls( lack of social interaction) probably attributes to my lenthy postings. My apologies to all with a short attention span. Of course the length of the posting is visible prior to the decision to read. So, if length of posting is important, just skip it.

John-

I suspected that there was a message here that you really wanted to express clearly, and that is why I commented the way that I did. I understood enough to know that the topic was an important one and really wanted you to clarify it so it would get the proper response and attention.

 

I am sorry to hear about your accident, and I know that this topic is important to you (and me), and I am glad that you took the time to re-submit the post. Like I said, I do not want to be looked at as the grammar and spelling police, but I do want everyone to recognize the importance of your message.

[Larry]

You’re not limited 8c you can kill as many as you want you can keep getting doe tags. 8g where I live I can kill up to 8 does. That’s 2 on bow ml tags and up to 6 on dmp’s between the 4 you can get and 2 that can be consigned over to you. Then there may be dmap tags on the land if you lucky to have a place to hunt. So how many deer can you kill in 1 season.  

[chas0218]

Look first of all in the WMU’s where the doe only was put in place it wasn’t because hunters are unwilling to kill does. Those WMU’s most of the land is in privet hands. So if you can’t get access to the deer you can’t kill them. No matter what incentives or rules put in place you are not going to kill more does. It’s as simple as this if we can’t get to them we can’t kill them.

That and it is a huge area with mostly Apple and AG fields so lots of crop damage. If you ever drive down 104 look for all the apple orchards.

[phade]

You’re not limited 8c you can kill as many as you want you can keep getting doe tags. 8g where I live I can kill up to 8 does. That’s 2 on bow ml tags and up to 6 on dmp’s between the 4 you can get and 2 that can be consigned over to you. Then there may be dmap tags on the land if you lucky to have a place to hunt. So how many deer can you kill in 1 season.  

 

Take 8C out because of the specialty of that unit - talking 8H, 8F, 8G or any of the other WMUs impacted.

 

We are limited - and I am speaking specifically to the DMPs because EVERYONE knows the antlerless statewide BOW/ML needs to go away. It is really screwing up WMUs.

 

DMPs - you have to pay to get them and draw. You get two.

 

Then, you need to go back Nov 1st to get two more. (which, if you didn't know, bow season opens OCT 1!!!!!!)

 

Then you need to beg borrow or steal from another hunter to get two more.

 

What brainiac is incapable of seeing that hunters are limited here?

 

The DEC needs to allow OTC in those units and allow for repeatable harvests for those who have access.  Why does a hunter have to find a consignment? Not exactly that easy to do. But it sure looks good on paper as "opportunity" and an excuse for the DEC fanboys to claim.

 

Remove the barriers for hunters who can shoot does in those units and stop making them jump through hoops. Get your DMP, shoot your doe, get a replacement OTC, and rinse/repeat. When the DEC deems enough harvests are reported, close down the tag issuing.

Edited February 5, 2016 by phade

[kpkot]

Kinda agree with phade here to an extent, but the antlerless boe/mz dmp I like. .. i go maybe once a year to 9w. Rarely would i ever draw a dmp there so having that antlerless dmp gives me a shot at a doe. Where i agree is the trouble hunters go through in the high dmp areas. Why don't they revamp the dmp process in those units? This past year it was like hunting in a different state with all the regs, why can't they revamp those areas similar to phades idea.

[moog5050]

Phade

 

I understand the argument that the DMP should be over the counter, but do you really believe that's the limitation on doe take?

 

Even in our group, we kill what 5-6 deer each and always have extra DMPs.  We don't stop shooting doe due to the lack of tags.  Its more of the "enough is enough" at some point as a hunter.  For me, its when I have plenty of meat and don't want to do any more butchering.

 

Again, I don't disagree that the tags should be freely available to those willing to use them, but I question how many hunters would kill more doe than we do even if the tags are OTC.

[hunterdan44]

M

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatal

Edited February 5, 2016 by hunterdan44

[phade]

Kinda agree with phade here to an extent, but the antlerless boe/mz dmp I like. .. i go maybe once a year to 9w. Rarely would i ever draw a dmp there so having that antlerless dmp gives me a shot at a doe. Where i agree is the trouble hunters go through in the high dmp areas. Why don't they revamp the dmp process in those units? This past year it was like hunting in a different state with all the regs, why can't they revamp those areas similar to phades idea.

 

The problem with the above Kpkot is that the units where draw numbers and antlerless numbers are actually low - the bow/mz tag allows for does to be shot in addition to any DMPs. From what I understand, this has had a lot of impact in the NZ 'dacks area.

[Critter4321]

Tags should be out there for those that can and wish to fill them!!

  

   In areas where you get 2 DMP tags and can get 2 more 11/1 then the consignment ya if you bag borrow or plead enough you might get 2 more. There needs to be a system where every hunter gets one DMP tag to start with then can take his filled out carcass tag and get another this would give the DEC the reports they want on how many deer have been taking in real time. I am not saying have no limit there will always be a limit of how many get shot as there is now. But instead of wasting printer ink on tags that others have no means or desire to fill give them to those that can and will fill them.

[dbHunterNY]

I don't have much experience with most of the hunting areas in question.  I do with 8G (and 4J which is different and more comparable to 8C).  I'm all for allowing tags to be filled sooner and readily more available.  no reason you should be forced to have a tag burn a hole in your pocket during the annual deer season as a whole.  I think access to tags isn't necessarily the problem.  whenever an area has an wealth of doe tags handed out many hunters get all self-educated.  they think everybody is shooting doe so if I don't it's no big deal or I won't and will have more deer on my property for myself.  also they may even round up as many tags as they can get with full intent of sitting on them and never filling them.  your average hunter doesn't understand or care about an over population versus not seeing many deer at all.  this usually isn't the mentality of the hunter who hunts any where he/she can get access and experiences limited opportunity.  it's often the hunter who has considerable access and owns land that does this.  nothing you can say or do will usually change accessibility of their land.  those who take doe and have more opportunity will only take so many.  so without having more hunter involvement across each WMU, to recruit at least a portion of those with opportunity who aren't shooting doe, your harvest numbers won't change.  access isn't the problem.  participation from more hunters with access is.  every hunter that hunts one of these WMU's should average what everyone in your hunting party saw for adult doe and what you all took for doe.  if it's not more than 25% of those adult doe than your efforts aren't enough.  going further if you don't know what your immediate neighbors have taken, you should.  often times this eliminates the false statements of "there's no deer around here!"

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Phade

 

I understand the argument that the DMP should be over the counter, but do you really believe that's the limitation on doe take?

 

Even in our group, we kill what 5-6 deer each and always have extra DMPs.  We don't stop shooting doe due to the lack of tags.  Its more of the "enough is enough" at some point as a hunter.  For me, its when I have plenty of meat and don't want to do any more butchering.

 

Again, I don't disagree that the tags should be freely available to those willing to use them, but I question how many hunters would kill more doe than we do even if the tags are OTC.

I have had to lay off taking does in that October 1st through November 1st window for lack of tags. To me that is the best month to fill with a bow. 

[moog5050]

I have had to lay off taking does in that October 1st through November 1st window for lack of tags. To me that is the best month to fill with a bow. 

 

Fair enough.  Good example where OTC would work.

[phade]

Phade

 

I understand the argument that the DMP should be over the counter, but do you really believe that's the limitation on doe take?

 

Even in our group, we kill what 5-6 deer each and always have extra DMPs.  We don't stop shooting doe due to the lack of tags.  Its more of the "enough is enough" at some point as a hunter.  For me, its when I have plenty of meat and don't want to do any more butchering.

 

Again, I don't disagree that the tags should be freely available to those willing to use them, but I question how many hunters would kill more doe than we do even if the tags are OTC.

 

We have extra DMPs because we are able to get consignments for the most part, When we split our DMPs amongst 8G/8H/8F though, we ran into DMP issues for 8H. Most of the WMUs in this bucket tend to border one another in groups and hunting in multiple WMUs is somewhat common.

 

I don't think there is one huge barrier (other than access, as everyone knows) - it is the cumulative impact of all the small barriers that in my opinion restrict antlerless harvest to some degree.

 

Expand the season for archery antlerless, reduce the barriers for tags, and manage them OTC is a better case scenario given access won't be fixed. If antlerless went to Feb 1 or Jan. 15...I suspect even I would go out for a few afternoons after the new year out of withdrawal symptoms. While I am not a huge bait to hunt fan for deer, I could even see that being a positive thing to help harvests.

 

My issue with the DEC on this is that they've thrown their hands up and want to introduce guns into the mix. I could completely buy this if they've tried other avenues. The two week season/late mz season was at least a stab in the dark. It's almost like they have tunnel vision for the gun season in bow/or before.