Antler restrictions

[Buckmaster7600]

I apologize then because when I read your statement, i get the understanding that your saying youth hunters should also follow the AR rules. I think any senior and and youth hunter should be exempt from AR's 

I don't get this mentality at all. So if a spike makes a 16 year old happy it's ok, if a spike makes an 80yr old happy it ok but if a spike makes a 30 year old happy it's a scrub buck and he's a crappy hunter? Once again who the F cares what others shoot, shoot what you want I'll shoot what I want and everyone is happy. Stop trying to push what you think is best on to everyone else.

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[Larry]

Just wondering why the states that have the best deer hunting don’t have AR’s and some states like Iowa have up to a 3 buck limit. All you have to do is look at Pa to see how well AR’s are working. After 14 years of AR’s Pa. finely makes 59% of the buck take at 2.5 year olds or greater. Here in NY the buck take was 52% 2.5 year old or older with limited AR’s and mostly in an area of poor habitat. Also Pa. has decimated its deer herd look at the size of the deer take in Pa 10 years ago to what it is now. With voluntary passing on small bucks we can easily pass that 60% mark in far less time than Pa. all it will take is an adetude change and not a rule change.

[Buckstopshere]

15 minutes ago, Larry said:

Just wondering why the states that have the best deer hunting don’t have AR’s and some states like Iowa have up to a 3 buck limit. All you have to do is look at Pa to see how well AR’s are working. After 14 years of AR’s Pa. finely makes 59% of the buck take at 2.5 year olds or greater. Here in NY the buck take was 52% 2.5 year old or older with limited AR’s and mostly in an area of poor habitat. Also Pa. has decimated its deer herd look at the size of the deer take in Pa 10 years ago to what it is now. With voluntary passing on small bucks we can easily pass that 60% mark in far less time than Pa. all it will take is an adetude change and not a rule change.

And it is only right we should bring Pa. into this conversation as their opening day was yesterday. I talked to some guys and asked them how many shots they heard ( North Central near the NY border.) They said...oh we heard a few. And that is the point, there is so few deer in Pa. now, I don't even get a license! AR's! Since ARs, the Pa. deer (buck) take has plummeted. All the deer hunters with tag soup...and not necessary, all for timber and the AR Koolaid drinkers.

[dbHunterNY]

I invite anyone who is for AR to hunt the Adirondacks where there are no doe tags available.  Eating tag soup year after year would get pretty old for most people....

In all honesty people who are in the dacks love it. They actually get to see deer versus hunt for days and see little. They get over the idea of not killing something most years. It's replaced with more opportunity for a better buck, anticipation of hunt turnout, increased activity, and more overall experience. Face it you can hunt just north of where I am for years, not see a deer , and therefore have basically no hunting experience when it comes to actual interaction with deer.

[Deerstalker]

40 minutes ago, Buckstopshere said:

And it is only right we should bring Pa. into this conversation as their opening day was yesterday. I talked to some guys and asked them how many shots they heard ( North Central near the NY border.) They said...oh we heard a few. And that is the point, there is so few deer in Pa. now, I don't even get a license! AR's! Since ARs, the Pa. deer (buck) take has plummeted. All the deer hunters with tag soup...and not necessary, all for timber and the AR Koolaid drinkers.

Yea but what is the percent of hunters getting a big  buck  very very low anyway you look at it . For the averge guy ARs is not going to make  there life any  easier.

I dont really no what is better frankly knowing there are bigger bucks around and probably not being the one to get them or just having more chances at any deer i see .

[Taylormike]

If AR was implemented throughout the entire State, I would imagine many more bucks would be taken illegally and not reported.  Even worse, I'm sure some would shoot and upon walking up realize "oh no, it's not a legal buck.  Now what?  Are these deer left to rot?  I never hunted PA or AR zones so not sure of the shortcomings.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Taylormike

[BigVal]

Really if you wanna shoot a big buck don't shoot the small one that comes by first. Hunt for a big buck. If you wanna shoot the spike that comes by shoot it and enjoy the meat and hunt. Should be a hunters decision. There's no ar in a lot of areas that produce some monster bucks. Put in your time to kill a buck of the caliber you are after, don't ruin the enjoyment of thousands of other hunters who fill tags on smaller racked bucks. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

Just wondering why the states that have the best deer hunting don’t have AR’s and some states like Iowa have up to a 3 buck limit. All you have to do is look at Pa to see how well AR’s are working. After 14 years of AR’s Pa. finely makes 59% of the buck take at 2.5 year olds or greater. Here in NY the buck take was 52% 2.5 year old or older with limited AR’s and mostly in an area of poor habitat. Also Pa. has decimated its deer herd look at the size of the deer take in Pa 10 years ago to what it is now. With voluntary passing on small bucks we can easily pass that 60% mark in far less time than Pa. all it will take is an adetude change and not a rule change.

Because they dont use rifles...Because they dont use guns during any part of the rut....Because they dont have 6-8 week gun seasons...Just for a few. I would love to skip the Ar talk and implement all these rules into our state. No North and South..Just a Ny season with the same dates and rules. Then add in the doe tags as needed per area.

[Trial153]

Because they dont use rifles...Because they dont use guns during any part of the rut....Because they dont have 6-8 week gun seasons...Just for a few. I would love to skip the Ar talk and implement all these rules into our state. No North and South..Just a Ny season with the same dates and rules. Then add in the doe tags as needed per area.

Exactly. No need for ARs at all. Some simple changes would be more effective then AR's in the long run.

One buck per license to be used in any season with any weapon.
9 day state wide regular season, starting first Saturday after thanksgiving.
DMP that are person and unit specific.

But don't worry the same people bitching about AR will find causes to bitch about any positive changes.

[adkhunter71]

9 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

In all honesty people who are in the dacks love it. They actually get to see deer versus hunt for days and see little.

What is it that people in the dacks love?  The Adirondacks pretty much have the lowest deer densities in the state....and by a large margin compared to most everywhere else.  I have had quite a few seasons in the Adirondacks where I have only caught glimpses of deer with no shot opportunities.  For someone who enjoys eating venison more than putting a rack on the wall, I can assure you that I didn't "love it" in the years that I was unfortunate to not tag a deer.

 

9 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

They get over the idea of not killing something most years.

LOL....sounds like something that Cuomo would say about taking away guns- "you want to put some meat in the freezer but couldn't because you couldn't fill your buck tag when presented with a spike horn or a fork horn- you'll get over it..."

 

9 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

Face it you can hunt just north of where I am for years, not see a deer , and therefore have basically no hunting experience when it comes to actual interaction with deer.

If you are in the Upper Hudson River Valley, wouldn't just north of you be the Adirondacks?

Don't get me wrong, if I had enough time to hunt, I could fill my buck tag consistently with ARs or without them.  I just remember when I was getting started that I almost gave up because I was consistently not seeing deer and was getting tired of freezing my ass off.  I didn't kill my first deer until I was 18 (a twelve point wiith split brows) after starting with my father when I was too young to carry a gun by myself.  In the years since, I have killed spike horns, fork horns, 5 pointers, six, seven 8 and 9 pointers as well as does.  I appreciate all of them the same as I did the first one.  

I want my kids to be able to experience hunting and have the opportunity to take whatever makes them happy with whatever time that they get to hunt.  All while not having their experience restricted because someone else chooses to shoot a bigger buck.

[Fletch]

I guess I can't get the AR logic that their way is the only way so all must abide? How are you more important than the guy/gal who hunts a few days a year and is tickled pink with any deer. Yup you are a more dedicated hunter but really who cares. That person may have other things that matter more. The DEC Biologists have already stated their is no herd health benefit. As well as no majority in favor.
You already have the option to not shoot a small buck. We all know there are already quite a few big bucks around just you need to work for them. It is 100% someone else killed a buck that now you can't shoot later is all it is. News alert they are not your deer.

Things I would like to see is mandatory check ins.
A later shorter gun season.


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[growalot]

Have  you buck blinder people forgotten something? NYS DEC has been in a frenzy to lower the deer herd. Now perhaps I'm missing something this year...but have you looked at just the posts on line? I'm not seeing a big deer take thus far.  That includes bow...I'm also not seeing the doe #'s. What I do see is guys, me included taking smaller buck  because they didn't see the doe... Not that doe aren't there...but they are hiding...plenty of food and lots of cover. The smaller buck...most all of them would have made the AR cut anyways...and even some 4's would have made inside spread.

You talk about herd balance and health ,forest regeneration,yet in the same breath lay out ways to shoot less deer. Around and around and around every single year...Brings to mind that crazy  exercise woman of the 80's screaming..." STOP THE INSANITY! "

BTW..If any of you wanting a shorter season thinks that won't have the DEC  putting a push on farmers getting nuisance tags and the DEC increasing those (out of season) tags,your kidding only your self.

Edited November 30, 2016 by growalot

[chas0218]

14 hours ago, Buckstopshere said:

Good question. I think the main thing we lose is other hunters. Now you can look at it as losing competition..."hey, more for me!" Or look it at like...the tradition of deer hunting is something I want to pass on to the young folk.

I understand the former, but I am big time on the side of the latter point. We need to keep young people or new hunter's fingers in a little blood.

Yeah but the youngsters get to shoot anything with or without antlers up until the age of 16 so that is a mute point. That's what the youth mentor hunt is all about getting the younger generation into the field.

People complain about bad genetics if you have a 2 1/2 year old buck that is passed he will push out that younger buck with bad genetics allowing him to be shot as a basket rack 6 or 8 taking out those bad genetics.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

14 hours ago, chrisw said:

 

I'm probably in the minority here but I hunt only state land and I'd be for some sort of AR. I've let anything 1.5 or younger go for 5 years now. I've had at least one opportunity at a 2.5yr old buck every year on state land. Last year I killed a 9 pt and this year I killed an 8, and 4 years ago I killed an 8, all during archery. The other years I didn't kill a buck, I shoot does for meat and if I don't kill a buck I'm fine with that. I've killed a lot of 1.5yr old bucks and they just don't do it for me anymore. But having said that... I do understand that some people don't have the time, or simply are happy with a 4 pt and I'm fine with that too. I guess I'm on both sides of the argument. I think they should let everyone vote on it, when you buy your license you get a vote on AR, majority wins. Simple. I'm sure that would result in no AR's but hey you never know.

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So what do the hunters do in areas where there are very few or no antlerless permits issued? 

[chas0218]

6 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

So what do the hunters do in areas where there are very few or no antlerless permits issued? 

P.A. had the same situation, they had low deer take numbers for the first 2 years then things leveled back out to the same amount of deer take numbers. This was from a P.A. game warden he said people complained the first couple years but once they saw the benefit they were a more open to the idea. People actually liked seeing more deer granted they couldn't shoot them but it gave them more hope as to whether they were going to shoot a deer. I understand that many don't want to wait 2 years until they are allowed to harvest a mature deer but in those 2 years that deer they could have shot as a 1 1/2 year old now has about 30lbs. more meat. Allowing that hunter to live off the meat for a longer duration. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

11 hours ago, upstate said:

I can let bucks pass, and I did on opening day.  This topic is like arguing religion and politics. 

I studied QDM for years. It's not only antlers, its herd management.  I have 55-60 acre plots of land to hunt, I lost my big acreage to development and another patch to a family members retirement needs ($$$$$) so my days of actually hunting a big buck  over. I get lucky and one passes through but actually spending bow into gun season, its not happening. So, I fill the freezer first. So that allows me to pass on the little guys. As season wears on, I am less selective

You don't need big acerage to get a big buck. You just need the right 5 acres. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

10 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

In all honesty people who are in the dacks love it. They actually get to see deer versus hunt for days and see little. They get over the idea of not killing something most years. It's replaced with more opportunity for a better buck, anticipation of hunt turnout, increased activity, and more overall experience. Face it you can hunt just north of where I am for years, not see a deer , and therefore have basically no hunting experience when it comes to actual interaction with deer.

The guys I know that hunt up there have no desire at all for AR's. 

[stubby68]

8 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

P.A. had the same situation, they had low deer take numbers for the first 2 years then things leveled back out to the same amount of deer take numbers. This was from a P.A. game warden he said people complained the first couple years but once they saw the benefit they were a more open to the idea. People actually liked seeing more deer granted they couldn't shoot them but it gave them more hope as to whether they were going to shoot a deer. I understand that many don't want to wait 2 years until they are allowed to harvest a mature deer but in those 2 years that deer they could have shot as a 1 1/2 year old now has about 30lbs. more meat. Allowing that hunter to live off the meat for a longer duration. 

Live off the meat? You can't chew let alone stand the taste of a buck more then 2 1/2 years old.

         Funny I know many people in PA.  Some family. Never heard a good thing from any hunter about PA. hunting Spence ar were put in place. Some I know stopped hunting some started making the trip to NY. Why pay for a tag when I can not use. With ar there is a good chance your tag won't get filled. I will not pay for something I can not use. Is it that much money? no but if I am gonna pay for something I can't use I might as well just through money in the woodstove.AR is not about heard anything. It is about guys wanting to see huge bucks behind every tree. As we have all seen the pics there plenty of big bucks in my.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

24 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

P.A. had the same situation, they had low deer take numbers for the first 2 years then things leveled back out to the same amount of deer take numbers. This was from a P.A. game warden he said people complained the first couple years but once they saw the benefit they were a more open to the idea. People actually liked seeing more deer granted they couldn't shoot them but it gave them more hope as to whether they were going to shoot a deer. I understand that many don't want to wait 2 years until they are allowed to harvest a mature deer but in those 2 years that deer they could have shot as a 1 1/2 year old now has about 30lbs. more meat. Allowing that hunter to live off the meat for a longer duration. 

So then let's just ban ALL buck hunting for 2 years statewide for all seasons. And you missed my point totally about areas of the state that don't have options  or very limited options for doe take. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Culvercreek hunt club

[ApexerER]

16 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Sure it would. When you have to have that wife or kid standing in front of a DEC officer while checking in that deer. A one buck rule would not hurt any law abiding hunter and manditory check in with unused tags having to be sent back in would turn that sh!t around quick.

A wife is going to tell her law breaking husband to screw off when she has to stand in front of DEC and lie about her hunt and the DEC would see right thru it.....

While I agree that you are correct...How many of those people that are willing to fill their tag, wifes tag, kids tag etc....are going to stop at a deer check station? Out of the 12 guys I hunt with, I am the only person that brings my deer to a butcher. Everyone else goes home, hangs them and butchers them. So I don't know the actual percentage of hunters that use a processer but my guess is it is low. I have to follow the law (and would anyway) because I know DEC is going to see my deer at the processor. My guess is a good majority of the hunters wouldn't bother with a deer check in even if mandatory. They are going to go in the back of the truck, then home and cut up...Or dragged from "out back" and cut up. More laws only hurt the people that abide by them....

[growalot]

Taking out a mature doe could also give you that extra 30 #'s of meat...perhaps the attitude change should switch...perhaps if hunters started making a bigger deal out of taking a mature doe...more doe and less buck would be taken. Maybe let the talk go to the challenge of taking a deer who's instinct to survive isn't over powered by the instinct to breed. Leaving it more vulnerable to roaming and day light activity..maybe putting the youth hunt experience as one of  a great successful hunt being one of a great doe,with a bonus if a buck walks by. Have forums light up with 50 likes on a Doe harvests not 20...get the point?

There are layers of attitude changes that could happen to make everyone happy...One of limiting another's chance at a deer shouldn't be the main change sault.

[dbHunterNY]

On 11/25/2016 at 11:41 PM, ATbuckhunter said:

That is one nice buck!

 

On 11/25/2016 at 10:35 PM, Zuke said:

Tell your buddy awesome deer. I think that thing is neat as hell!

so neither of you care about a less likely but probable chance that happened to this buck with growing 'mutt' antlers?  lol....exactly.  practically any hunter would be thrilled to take a fully mature 6.5+ yr old regardless of it's antlers.  it coming in with its brute like presence, maybe rubbing and snapping off a tree or kickin a$$ and showing other bucks who's boss, is more than enough for most hunters in my experience.  a deer that old isn't applicable to an antler restriction conversation because they aren't designed to protect bucks to full maturity.  the point is though that hunters can appreciate even a small increase in opportunity to hunt bucks with more age and dominance for their respective area.  maybe that just means more 2.5 or 3.5 yr olds with no to very little chance at seeing anything older.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

11 minutes ago, ApexerER said:

While I agree that you are correct...How many of those people that are willing to fill their tag, wifes tag, kids tag etc....are going to stop at a deer check station? Out of the 12 guys I hunt with, I am the only person that brings my deer to a butcher. Everyone else goes home, hangs them and butchers them. So I don't know the actual percentage of hunters that use a processer but my guess is it is low. I have to follow the law (and would anyway) because I know DEC is going to see my deer at the processor. My guess is a good majority of the hunters wouldn't bother with a deer check in even if mandatory. They are going to go in the back of the truck, then home and cut up...Or dragged from "out back" and cut up. More laws only hurt the people that abide by them....

It actually seems pretty easy to me to monitor it all but the manning of the check in s is the issue. The license system is computerized. check ins scan the tags in as they come in. when you get you new license you have to scan in the unused tags from previous year. If you don't have them scanned in either location then no new license. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

8 minutes ago, growalot said:

Taking out a mature doe could also give you that extra 30 #'s of meat...perhaps the attitude change should switch...perhaps if hunters started making a bigger deal out of taking a mature doe...more doe and less buck would be taken. Maybe let the talk go to the challenge of taking a deer who's instinct to survive isn't over powered by the instinct to breed. Leaving it more vulnerable to roaming and day light activity..maybe putting the youth hunt experience as one of  a great successful hunt being one of a great doe,with a bonus if a buck walks by. Have forums light up with 50 likes on a Doe harvests not 20...get the point?

There are layers of attitude changes that could happen to make everyone happy...One of limiting another's chance at a deer shouldn't be the main change sault.

Oh now your just being sexist...lol

[Larry]

With most land in NY in privet hands (southern zone) the DEC has given land owners the tools to manage deer on their lands almost the way they want. Under some pretty liberal rules. You can even bait as long as you plant it and not pile it. But most would rather bitch about what the guys are doing around them instead taking care of their own business. Or their too stupid or lazy to realize it so they look to have someone do it for them by demanding a rule change instead of putting forth a little effort.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Larry