Shoot young bucks to let older ones mature

[CharlieNY]

See the attached article and be sure and scroll through the pictures which will show you the antler development of an actual New York Sate buck over the years. This provides evidence, not speculation, as to what can occur by letting a young buck grow. You will be amazed at the growth of this buck's rack and body through the years. It is not possible to predict antler growth of a young buck.

valoroutdoors.com

 

http://www.realtree.com/deer-hunting/galleries/photo-gallery-from-buttons-to-booner

[Steve D]

22 minutes ago, NFA-ADK said:

Steve D I do not agree.  Genes help determine rack configuration.  Size of the antlers depends on food, health of deer and genes.  If that was me in your area I would give that 4 point a chance to get one more year.  If he is a big body 4 point and comes out healthy from the winter I would bet 100$ he would become a nice 8 or better next year, if not then I would say take him.  Keep in mind the doe give the buck her genes to so even if it is a 3.5 with a 4 point rack that doe could make the next buck she produces a giant. 

That is exactly what I said and you disagree with it. Granted the size of the rack will be determined by diet, health, etc. Bob Estes President of the big buck club put a presentation on one time where he did a study on different bucks over a period of years. None of the young bucks that were 4 or 6 points grew up to be 8 or 10 points. As they aged their antlers got bigger but they were all the same points and had the identical rack configuration from year to year.

Same thing with young 8, 10, or 12 pointers. They will have the same configuration year after year and the size will be determined on diet health, and age.

Have to go eat, drink, watch football, & be merry. Happy Thanksgiving to all!!!!!!!!

[chrisw]

You can't predict what set of antlers a buck at 1.5 will have at 3.5. an idea? Perhaps. Go check out Charles Alsheimer's study, and it was done in NY also... People watch too much Drury Brothers on TV and start to think they are deer biologists.

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[Trial153]

Go to New York Antler Outdoors facebook page.  Be prepared to get your socks knocked off when you see the hundreds of giants from this year alone.   New York has some real nice bucks and in good quantity as well.  I do believe this theory is a good part of why there are so many nice mature bucks in New York.  At camp, surrounded by state land and a couple other out of staters camps, I see im- mature bucks harvested constantly.  The trail cameras and deer we have seen are very impressive.  Mature bucks are harder targets, most hunters wont, cant or do not know how to be patient or hunt them.  And that is perfectly acceptable to me.  It use to upset us to see all these small bucks being shot that we passed up on many times during bow, however it didnt take long to realize it took the pressure of the big ones and it also left them for us.  Over the 20 years being there the big buck numbers have grown and we still continue to see hunters around us killing the little guys.

On micro level there are some excellent bucks killed in predominantly western NY. However on macro level it compares poorly to a large percentage of other states outside the northeast. That's not speculation on my part. I spend a minimum of two weeks yearly bow hunting the Midwest, so I am talking about first hand comparisons over the last 15 years, in 8 different states.
The only place New York compares favorably to is the New England states, that's not saying much.
The regulations in NY( and the mentality of many its hunters) continue to hold back our deer herd from reaching its potential.

[Taylormike]

There are many things we the hunters and the DEC can do for QDM.  IMO, one simple implementation is do not allow the gun season for 3-4 weeks.  That's a long season with such an incredibly lethal weapon.  Also, in some areas go back to shotgun, stop approving all the rifle zones.  I know someone last year that shot 4.5 year old 153" buck in Dec. with .308 at 190 yards.  That buck lives on without that rifle.  Just be happy with what you decide.  My Brother and I have passed anything under a 6 for over 4 seasons.  My Dad will shoot anything, he doesn't put the time in we do.  We hope he is successful at whatever he chooses.  There is a lot of deer to go around.  BTW, we only have 24 acres.  My neighbors shot a spike and 2 4's.  It is what it is.

[wdswtr]

1 hour ago, Trial153 said:

On micro level there are some excellent bucks killed in predominantly western NY. However on macro level it compares poorly to a large percentage of other states outside the northeast. That's not speculation on my part. I spend a minimum of two weeks yearly bow hunting the Midwest, so I am talking about first hand comparisons over the last 15 years, in 8 different states.
The only place New York compares favorably to is the New England states, that's not saying much.
The regulations in NY( and the mentality of many its hunters) continue to hold back our deer herd from reaching its potential.

I encourage you to go to the facebook page I posted and look at the counties and towns these deer where killed.  The deer are very impressive and the amount is shocking.

[Trial153]

I encourage you to go to the facebook page I posted and look at the counties and towns these deer where killed.  The deer are very impressive and the amount is shocking.

I been a member of the page for quite a while. Like I said I don't think except on an individual level it's all that impressive. We have a whole different scope and experience sets to draw from that leads us to our own opinions.

[wdswtr]

24 minutes ago, Trial153 said:

I been a member of the page for quite a while. Like I said I don't think except on an individual level it's all that impressive. We have a whole different scope and experience sets to draw from that leads us to our own opinions.

It takes more than just hunters holding out on shooting small deer to get massive head gear.  NY is a vast state with huge tracks of timber, with the dominant farming in the west, hence the higher numbers of impressive antlers in western NY.  With that said without the farm crops like in the midwest and western US being dominate food sources, and possible a smaller percent of hunters per sq. mile in some of those states.  NY will never be the antler capitol so many desire.  With that said for NY the amount of big deer being taken all over the state is indeed quite impressive.  There is quality mature bucks in NY period, in the quantity some desire, nope.  Never will be without mass nutrition, mild winters and less hunters.  Compared to years gone by, NY is turning out some huge deer and in decent numbers for what this state can be.  

Edited November 24, 2016 by wdswtr

[The_Real_TCIII]

It's funny, my friend has a nice property and he lets his brother in law hunt under the condition that he doesn't shoot 1.5. I always say why not let him shoot one and then he's not shooting one of the big bucks you have around lol?


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[wdswtr]

If I remember correct NY is 63% Forest, I dont recal the %  that is city or urban, compare that to most western and midwestern states that are 25% Forest and Vastly Farm land.  Imagine all the deer that have never seen a human and died of old age in a mass track of forest like the adirondacks or catskills.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

5 hours ago, Steve D said:

I just would like to make note that there has been some PRETTY NICE bucks taken in the state this year and I have seen a lot of them posted on this site. One thing we seem to be forgetting is the fact that Little bucks (with little racks) breed little bucks. Your bigger racked bucks regardless of age will breed bigger racked bucks.

 We have had a big bodied four point around here and if I get a chance to take him from the gene pool I will. He is a mature buck but does not and probably has not ever had a decent rack. Every doe that he breeds this year that has a buck fawn will end up with a small rack like him.

 There is a difference between shooting young bucks with small racks and shooting older bucks with small racks.

I think you are missing the true truth in breeding. That 4 point could father one of the biggest bucks on the place with good bred does. She has a pile to do with what her son will turn out to be.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

To get big deer you dont need Ar although it is a great tool. You need shorter seasons, no guns in any part of the Rut and make it a law that all animals must be brought to a check station with unused tags returned. 

Then you would have big deer and would not have the same few filling their whole families deer tags with spikes and 4's.

[travisrage]

Isn't that what most guys already do? Kinda ridiculous when80% of hunters kill deer 2.5 and younger!


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[BigVal]

Makes sense. This bow season I passed on 17 1.5 year old(clearly) bucks. As I had hoped to get one of my target bucks. I didn't, and would have loved to fill my tag with the young buck the last week but hadn't no opportunity. Come muzzleloader season I will likely shoot one given the chance. We see tons of young bucks. 

Im no deer biologist but i see lots of young bucks year after year and that's with our group shooting some. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by BigVal

[Otto]

In fishing at least, they tell us to throw the big ones back and let them breed to pass on their genes.  If you are going to harvest a few fish, keep the smaller, but legal, ones.  Why is it the opposite for deer?  I'm sure there are a lot of factors, but it seems to me that the article, which I have not yet read, but will, makes a lot of sense.

[wdswtr]

2 hours ago, Otto said:

In fishing at least, they tell us to throw the big ones back and let them breed to pass on their genes.  If you are going to harvest a few fish, keep the smaller, but legal, ones.  Why is it the opposite for deer?  I'm sure there are a lot of factors, but it seems to me that the article, which I have not yet read, but will, makes a lot of sense.

I yet to see a deer thats been killed, resurected from the dead and released to grow and shoot again.  Fishing and hunting are way different.  Hunting you shoot to kill, fishing you can be selective and release.  However many believe that the smaller fish and smaller deer taste much better and choose to eat the young age class.  I wont critisize others choices on what they choose to harvest be it a fish or a deer.  The mature bucks are out there, if one so chooses to put the time and effort in to take a mature animal.  

[Zuke]

10 hours ago, Larry302 said:

Well here's where we are ....is post more but ,many don't want to show what we got .

Who is with me for a road trip to Larry's?

[stubby68]

9 hours ago, NFA-ADK said:

Stubby and Core I understand what you are saying.  If you are seeing so little deer in the area you hunt, I would try another spot.  I understand some area's of the state have low population and a young age structure.  If this is the type of area you hunt then take anything you want but that will not improve anything for your spot.  Trigger happy neighbors will cause the same issues of low population and age.  Some things are out of our hands.

Big buck hunters kill very few deer in general.  Usually one a year if they are lucky 2 if they do bow and get real lucky.  (Not including doe.)  If you think this is the reason for low population I would tend to disagree.  These hunters pass more deer than many see in the entire season.  Now if you talk about the hunters who shoot anything and say they are the cause of low population and poor age, herd balance I would tend to agree.  

Think about it, if all the hunters in your area only went after  3.5 or older you would have 1-2.5's running all over the place!

Steve D I do not agree.  Genes help determine rack configuration.  Size of the antlers depends on food, health of deer and genes.  If that was me in your area I would give that 4 point a chance to get one more year.  If he is a big body 4 point and comes out healthy from the winter I would bet 100$ he would become a nice 8 or better next year, if not then I would say take him.  Keep in mind the doe give the buck her genes to so even if it is a 3.5 with a 4 point rack that doe could make the next buck she produces a giant. 

JMO hope I did not offend anyone, and hope everyone has a great day and happy Thanksgiving! 

I agree with Larry, it's just deer and today the most important thing is family, hope you all enjoy your family day and eat till you can't!  Then eat some more! 

PS: Sorry for writing a book, I was bored!

 

             Then how do you explain being able to see more deer years ago then now? How about the fact that good bucks were common back then? Like I said back then good bucks were seen and shot every day. They never ended up being the talk of the hunting town. Hunters didn't  get giddy  as a school girl about seeing a good buck like they do today.Why ? There were a lot of them. Never heard a hunter say they didn't see any deer on an outing either. How many posts have there been on this site alone from hunters saying they saw nothing? Back then we shot what ever never passing buck or doe to wait for a bigger one. Any passing on a shot was do to us deciding we didn't  feel like dragging that day and we new we could get them when we did feel it.

            Up until the mind set of trophy hunting we shot what ever when ever.  Never having a problem of getting good bucks and doe every day and year. 

[nyslowhand]

13 hours ago, grampy said:

Just my opinion . But common sense tells me if you shoot all the young bucks, eventually you will have very few older bucks! Or am I missing something here?

Think the article's author meant this concept to be on a culling basis in specific areas or situations and not as a generalized theory as you may be interpreting it to mean. Counter-intuitive though, huh...?

[nyslowhand]

13 hours ago, Larry302 said:

I sure don't have it all figured our however, as I've said before I hunt a large farm with buck minimums , many others around do this to. My piece of the farm has a idk I'd guess 500 acre farm next door , that's largely all open crop fields . Any thing they kill is either running to or walking out of my thicket .

They shoot any buck , they're   great guys ,we let each other just cross over to recover or track and so on. I'm quite pleased when they tag out on small bucks because we have a lot of big ones around ,they are done hunting and the big ones are still on their feet.

There was a time we had way more hunters and most shot the first buck to walk / run by. Today far less hunters most are selective and lots of nice bucks . So a few taking young ones matters little around me .

Its like someone taking a plain donut and leaving the apple fritters for me !

 

Wish there were a "Hate You" button. Kidding, dude!! You seen to have the almost perfect deer hunting scenario. Okay, so I'm envious! 

[growalot]

The DEC  did terrible in their efforts to produce bigger bucks ,if Charlie NY link is all the effort they put into is... UN like other states management efforts where. Live deer video comparison  and discussions are made.

I also think implementing the x bow in to just the last 2 weeks of bow season was counter productive to the efforts of producing mature buck. Your into the rut then...doe have all ready started to go nocturnal. Guys have that either or tag ,that have been gun hunters all their lives. They usually only take one buck because late season hunting is  usually cold ,snowy,and near the holidays...So of course they will be out their trying to tag a buck before regular season . With a greater chance at seeing a young roaming buck over a doe anyways.

Don't think so?...Well let the harvest records tell if I am right or not

[growalot]

there not thier

[Four Season Whitetail's]

6 hours ago, growalot said:

The DEC  did terrible in their efforts to produce bigger bucks ,if Charlie NY link is all the effort they put into is... UN like other states management efforts where. Live deer video comparison  and discussions are made.

I also think implementing the x bow in to just the last 2 weeks of bow season was counter productive to the efforts of producing mature buck. Your into the rut then...doe have all ready started to go nocturnal. Guys have that either or tag ,that have been gun hunters all their lives. They usually only take one buck because late season hunting is  usually cold ,snowy,and near the holidays...So of course they will be out their trying to tag a buck before regular season . With a greater chance at seeing a young roaming buck over a doe anyways.

Don't think so?...Well let the harvest records tell if I am right or not

I believe that record will open some eyes once again!

[NFA-ADK]

I can understand writing an article telling hunters to shoot the young bucks, in rifle only area it tags them out and takes presser off the big smart old deer.  (In large population areas this works better.)  Only issue I would have is that if everyone did this you could decimate your future prospects. 

Buckstopshere take a closer look, those are both 2.5 year old deer not the same.  Really observe the pics and you can tell.

Funny how in big buck areas guys hide the deer they shoot to try and keep the area hush hush, lol.  Happens on LI all the time. 

[Buckstopshere]

32 minutes ago, NFA-ADK said:

I can understand writing an article telling hunters to shoot the young bucks, in rifle only area it tags them out and takes presser off the big smart old deer.  (In large population areas this works better.)  Only issue I would have is that if everyone did this you could decimate your future prospects. 

Buckstopshere take a closer look, those are both 2.5 year old deer not the same.  Really observe the pics and you can tell.

Funny how in big buck areas guys hide the deer they shoot to try and keep the area hush hush, lol.  Happens on LI all the time. 

I appreciate your comments NFA-ADK. Here is a better photo. I still think the closer buck, the 3-point is a yearling. Being so close to the camera, the younger buck appears larger than it is. Like when we hold fish out close to the camera so they look bigger...lol But it is not 100% outside the realm of possibility that it could be a 2.5... though slim IMO. But the point still remains...which one would you shoot?