SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Buckmaster7600]

The kid was shooting what he thought was a DOE. He would have had no reason to worry about point-count even with ARs in place because he had already decided that it had no points. When you are filling a doe tag, ARs have no bearing on whether you pull the trigger or not. Once you have decided it is a doe and you have the necessary permit AR is no longer a part of your decision to shoot. He would have shot this deer anyway with or without ARs. So no, ARs would not have changed the outcome.

I disagree, I know I look extra extra hard to make sure there aren't spikes if I no longer have a buck tag and am shooting a doe. On any given day even with a buck tag if I am shooting a doe I'm looking extra hard for antlers because I don't shoot small bucks but add in the no buck tag and I'm triple checking. So AR's would also add that third and fourth check to make sure it was in fact a doe.

That being said I'm still not in favor of AR's, if safety is one of the concerns the best remedy would be to split the seasons and have an antlerless and an antlered season.

[wolc123]

Cool, 34 pages, lets keep it rolling and we might hit 50 in a week or so.  

I do understand the downside of AR's, especially with the still-hunting and tracking techniques where you don't get a lot of time to count points.  What time you have would be better spent on concentrating on the vitals area and shot placement.  I like those techniques and am planning to spend more time on them.  I killed my first deer last season that way (see ML harvest thread), but the other three were ambushed from a stand, ground blind, or a tree seat (see 15 page THS thread).   AR's would have not have slowed me down much on those three.

Unfortunately, the zone where I plan on spending more time still-hunting and tracking (6C) is covered by the proposed AR bill (3 point per side), but my home zone (9F), where I rarely stillhunt or track, is not covered.  Part of the reason I don't still hunt or track much at home is fear of getting shot by neighbors.  Hunting pressure around here is about 10X that up in the mountains.   If I could change the proposed bill, I would put zone 9F in the 3-point per side and take out zone 6C.

I wonder what the penalty for violation (harvesting a buck without enough points) would be.  The crossbow buck I killed last season (see crossbow harvest thread) appeared to be a solid 8, but turned out to be a 5 with both brow tines broke off and another point on the opposite side antler.  At least he turned out to be a 2-1/2 year old which I was able to verify from the jaw and teeth after finishing the euro mount.

In PA, I see that the penalty is a $25 fine and you can keep the deer unless you can't come up with a good excuse, then it is a bigger fine ($250 or $500).  I bet that results in a good number of deer left to rot, and it has to put some added strain on the enforcement agencies.  I would prefer a penalty where the violators could keep their "mistake", but they would loose their buck tag for that season (bow or gun) on the following year.   That would be much easier to enforce, would allow beginners to shoot any buck, and should result in a few less small bucks left to rot.

BM7600:  I tried explaining that to DOC earlier when he posted almost the exact same thing.  Some folks just need a little more convincing.  Thanks for your help.  How about a compromise on the AR's: Put them in the southern zone but keep them out of the northern zone?  That should be ok with the two of us anyhow.

Edited April 2, 2017 by wolc123

[DirtTime]

14 hours ago, wolc123 said:

Fortunately, I have never killed a deer with my own vehicle.  That is no easy task, considering the overpopulated zone I drive thru every weekday on the way to and from work.   The Good Lord (thank you for bringing His name onto this post and earning a "like" from me) has blesed us with a dozen or so which have been struck by others, several of which were not dead and had to be finished off with my knife.  I am thankful (but not proud) to have been in position to quickly end their suffering.  Maybe those are the posts you are remembering.

 

Doc,  Would you more feel safe, less safe, or no different while hunting if AR's were in place?  It would be interesting to see some stats on average  deer hunting accidents in PA or the AR zones of NY before and after the AR's.  That might help prove that point (no pun intended) one way or another.    

I guess you don't get sarcasm. My reference to God and Jesus, was that if you are so sanctimonious wolc123, you would not use a car to kill deer! I don't care who's car you have had "Accidents" hitting deer with. Still a form of poaching in my book. I could have filled every one of my tags, and my fiancée could have too if vehicles were a legal hunting implement. Sadly, we prefer to use rifles and shotguns. You really don't see the problems with the things you post do you? Carry on hypocrite. If the higher powers don't bless you, maybe FireStone will. 

 

[wolc123]

Rob, I have never been at the wheel of a vehicle that hit a deer.  I am sorry if I confused you on that.  Twice I have been a passenger though.   Thanks again for the Jesus bump, which is especially nice on a Sunday in Lent.   Any time you want to jump on a thread and bring up Jesus, fell free to do it.  The moderators are ok with it, even if it involves a personal attack on me.  Chefhunter has been a little lax on that lately and it is good to see you getting in a few.  There simply can not be too much of Jesus on a hunting website since it is thru Him that all blessings flow.    I have never and will never kill a deer (or catch a fish) without lots of help from Him.        

[Doc]

21 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

I disagree, I know I look extra extra hard to make sure there aren't spikes if I no longer have a buck tag and am shooting a doe. On any given day even with a buck tag if I am shooting a doe I'm looking extra hard for antlers because I don't shoot small bucks but add in the no buck tag and I'm triple checking. So AR's would also add that third and fourth check to make sure it was in fact a doe.

That being said I'm still not in favor of AR's, if safety is one of the concerns the best remedy would be to split the seasons and have an antlerless and an antlered season.

 

I suspect he was convinced that it was a doe and that was why he pulled the trigger. I doubt that ARs would have made him see what he couldn't see before. But the fact that he shot a buck thinking it was a doe does bring up an interesting dilemma that could result in even more otherwise normally honest people being turned into poachers, or even more wasted venison rotting in the woods because of ARs.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Doc

[First-light]

Yeah there are no Mulligans like in golf for deer hunting. I think one of the biggest mistakes a deer hunter makes is the size of the deer and rack. I know I'm guilty of it.

[Doc]

It seems to me that the only herd management ideas that anyone comes up with anymore are to make hunting rules more complex to the point where we are increasing the likelihood that hunters are going to be breaking them. And then we sit around and whine about the shrinking hunter numbers.

[Buckmaster7600]

It seems to me that the only herd management ideas that anyone comes up with anymore are to make hunting rules more complex to the point where we are increasing the likelihood that hunters are going to be breaking them. And then we sit around and whine about the shrinking hunter numbers.

I disagree myself and many others are pushing for a 1 buck rule in NY a herd management idea that will actually help the herd and simplify the rules.


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[erussell]

 

57 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

I disagree myself and many others are pushing for a 1 buck rule in NY a herd management idea that will actually help the herd and simplify the rules.


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Except the DEC did some research and found that very few people kill 2 bucks in a yr. So how is that going to help Buck Populations?

[Buckmaster7600]

 
Except the DEC did some research and found that very few people kill 2 bucks in a yr. So how is that going to help Buck Populations?

Most people that kill a buck every year kill 2. Most hunters aren't successful at killing bucks with regularity so they don't really matter in the statistics anyways.


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[nyantler]

1 hour ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

I disagree myself and many others are pushing for a 1 buck rule in NY a herd management idea that will actually help the herd and simplify the rules.


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A one buck rule would simply reduce the already very low number of hunters taking 2 bucks and have little to do with overall herd management or buck populations. The reality is that most hunter conceived ideas have more to do with trying to produce bigger bucks than any kind of logical deer herd management. Somehow some genius mentioned a "one buck rule" one day and all the sheep jumped on the bandwagon with the idea that this was the end all, be all deer management plan... I promise you it isn't.

[Buckmaster7600]

On 4/3/2017 at 7:05 AM, nyantler said:

A one buck rule would simply reduce the already very low number of hunters taking 2 bucks and have little to do with overall herd management or buck populations. The reality is that most hunter conceived ideas have more to do with trying to produce bigger bucks than any kind of logical deer herd management. Somehow some genius mentioned a "one buck rule" one day and all the sheep jumped on the bandwagon with the idea that this was the end all, be all deer management plan... I promise you it isn't.

 

You do realize that a low number of hunters shoot a buck. I am willing to bet that if you took a pole of hunters who have killed a buck every year for the last 5 years that most of them killed 2 a year. Most hunters either don't put much effort into hunting or aren't good at it.

Some don't want to be told what they can shoot some want bigger bucks some want to shoot the first deer they see and on and on. We have a grossly out of whack buck to doe ration in most of the state. Limit hunters to 1 buck and they will shoot more does and help balance the buck to doe ratio.

I couldn't care less about shooting bigger bucks as I have no problem shooting them now with our current screwed up system. Although I may be a "sheep" in your mind I in no way think a 1 buck rule is an end all be all. I however think it is a compromise. The sad fact is without an overhaul on our season dates none of the proposals will make much of a difference.




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Edited April 4, 2017 by WNYBuckHunter
inappropriate language, plese see the forum TOS

[DirtTime]

Personally, I think the AR's are BS! Just like I think the other AR restrictions are BS!

I want the freedom to shoot w/e deer I choose without interference, I pay for my license the same as those who choose shoot bigger bucks by choice. Why should I or anyone who thinks like I do have be subject dealing with a a sort of 'elitist' way of hunting? We shouldn't. We should have the right to hunt w/e deer we want, we all should. If you choose to hunt older bucks, good for you! If you choose to hunt a spike, not a damn thing wrong with that either!

I am so sick of being told what deer to hunt, what I can say and can't say, what guns I can and cannot own, what flag I want to display, what ammo I should shoot, what vehicle I should drive, what religion I should follow, and on, and on, and on,....and ON! FFS!

Just let hunters choose how and what they want to hunt! It's not that hard really! Just allow individuality! 

Edited April 4, 2017 by ....rob

[Steve D]

Interesting read from a year ago:

Following a multi-year study, the state Department of Environmental Conservation has concluded that the state's deer hunters "prefer" to hunt older bucks and that further "expansion of mandatory antler restrictions" is not warranted at this time.

Instead, the DEC will encourage hunters to "voluntarily pass up" shots on younger bucks as a management method to best serve the interests of deer hunters across the state.

"Through this study, DEC engaged with the hunting community to determine the best deer herd management practices to benefit both the deer population and our state's wildlife enthusiasts," said Basil Seggos, acting DEC commissioner. "DEC staff concluded that promoting voluntary restraint was appropriate given the high level of hunter support for increased availability of older bucks. Using a sound scientific approach to wildlife management is an essential strategy to expand hunting opportunities and growing the hunting economy in New York."

Full article:

http://www.syracuse.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2016/02/dec_no_need_to_expand_mandatory_antler_retrictions_for_deer_hunters.html

 

[Steve D]

31 minutes ago, ....rob said:

I am so sick of being told what deer to hunt, what I can say and can't say, what guns I can and cannot own, what flag I want to display, what ammo I should shoot, what vehicle I should drive, what religion I should follow, and on, and on, and on,....and ON! FFS!

I could not agree more 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

14 hours ago, nyantler said:

A one buck rule would simply reduce the already very low number of hunters taking 2 bucks and have little to do with overall herd management or buck populations. The reality is that most hunter conceived ideas have more to do with trying to produce bigger bucks than any kind of logical deer herd management. Somehow some genius mentioned a "one buck rule" one day and all the sheep jumped on the bandwagon with the idea that this was the end all, be all deer management plan... I promise you it isn't.

Just about every hunter i know kills to bucks a year...And for many of them its both yearling bucks.  One buck rule would save a pile of bucks during a hunting season. Shorten the season and take guns out of the rut and things would really get pretty...

[DirtTime]

25 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Just about every hunter i know kills to bucks a year...And for many of them its both yearling bucks.  One buck rule would save a pile of bucks during a hunting season. Shorten the season and take guns out of the rut and things would really get pretty...

Seriously? I am starting to think certain bow hunters are anti-gun.

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, ....rob said:

Seriously? I am starting to think certain bow hunters are anti-gun.

 

Not Here....I am a deer hunter that hunts every season possible. If the state wants bigger deer and better hunting its not Ar that is the best tool.. 1 buck,Shorter seasons and no guns in the rut is what makes great states great.

 

[phade]

OBR is credited with a lot of success in states that went to it most recently, i.e. KY and IN. It's not so much the second buck as it curtails the "shoot the first one and wait for a biggun" habit.

People always go to the "only 5k shoot two bucks a year" statement but reality is the OBR changes hunter behavior and that at the end of the day still allows the choice of the hunter should he or she want a younger buck.

Hunter behavior is really what people are after and some want to regulate out the ability to choose even more than it is know. OBR has been proven successful but still let's the buck being taken to be of more Hunter choice IMO.


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[WNYBuckHunter]

On 4/2/2017 at 9:18 PM, ....rob said:

I guess you don't get sarcasm. My reference to God and Jesus, was that if you are so sanctimonious wolc123, you would not use a car to kill deer! I don't care who's car you have had "Accidents" hitting deer with. Still a form of poaching in my book. I could have filled every one of my tags, and my fiancée could have too if vehicles were a legal hunting implement. Sadly, we prefer to use rifles and shotguns. You really don't see the problems with the things you post do you? Carry on hypocrite. If the higher powers don't bless you, maybe FireStone will. 

 

Did you just say hitting a deer with a car is poaching? LMAO wow

[WNYBuckHunter]

On 4/3/2017 at 7:05 AM, nyantler said:

A one buck rule would simply reduce the already very low number of hunters taking 2 bucks and have little to do with overall herd management or buck populations. The reality is that most hunter conceived ideas have more to do with trying to produce bigger bucks than any kind of logical deer herd management. Somehow some genius mentioned a "one buck rule" one day and all the sheep jumped on the bandwagon with the idea that this was the end all, be all deer management plan... I promise you it isn't.

I disagree. I know alot of guys that whack the first legally antlered deer that walks by, usually a yearling, and then save that other buck tag for ol mossy horns if he walks by. A one buck rule might (and I emphasize might because not everyone will do it) make many of them hold off for an older age class buck instead of taking the first thing with antlers. I feel like its a good way to steer people in the direction they want them to go in, without limiting everyone. The numbers of hunters that take two mature deer per year are pretty low, so you would not be affecting very many hunters each season.

[chas0218]

19 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I disagree. I know alot of guys that whack the first legally antlered deer that walks by, usually a yearling, and then save that other buck tag for ol mossy horns if he walks by. A one buck rule might (and I emphasize might because not everyone will do it) make many of them hold off for an older age class buck instead of taking the first thing with antlers. I feel like its a good way to steer people in the direction they want them to go in, without limiting everyone. The numbers of hunters that take two mature deer per year are pretty low, so you would not be affecting very many hunters each season.

But remember this bill isn't going to cover all of NY. This is in the low deer herd number areas where the majority of younger bucks are taken. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

11 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

But remember this bill isn't going to cover all of NY. This is in the low deer herd number areas where the majority of younger bucks are taken. 

Yes I know it doesnt cover the whole state, but its not just in low deer population areas, nor is it in areas where the majority of younger bucks are taken. DEC has no real idea of what age class bucks are taken to begin with, but areas such as 8N, etc are known for producing big bucks every year. The farms I hunt are just outside of 8N, and I know plenty of guys that hunt that zone. Lots of great bucks there.

In any case, I want to see a one buck rule for the whole state, not just the arbitrary areas where this proposal would cover.

[grampy]

31 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Did you just say hitting a deer with a car is poaching? LMAO wow

I guess that would make my wife a poacher too. And she has never hunted a day in her life. And I myself have been a poacher four different times. Twice with the same truck!

In the spirit of give and take, the OBR does make the most sense to me. As you still have a choice, to shoot whatever buck you want. I'd support the OBR before AR. If anything, 34 pages has brought up some good points to ponder.

[chas0218]

12 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Yes I know it doesnt cover the whole state, but its not just in low deer population areas, nor is it in areas where the majority of younger bucks are taken. DEC has no real idea of what age class bucks are taken to begin with, but areas such as 8N, etc are known for producing big bucks every year. The farms I hunt are just outside of 8N, and I know plenty of guys that hunt that zone. Lots of great bucks there.

In any case, I want to see a one buck rule for the whole state, not just the arbitrary areas where this proposal would cover.

I understand, I hunt 8N middlesex and have saw some really good bucks taken out of that area. That also goes for the area in 8F I hunt another area that has had some real studs killed over the years but I'm talking 1 mature buck in 5 or 6 years off the same property and that is usually because we pass him for those 3 or 4 years and might get lucky on the 4th year and make it around us. My point being that in 8N, 8X, 8Y, 8W all areas I hunt all seem to have lower herd numbers than 8F which is primarily flat farm land. When I compare the WMU's in the AR bill to ones that aren't there is a substantial difference in age of bucks. I think the areas listed will most definitely benefit from the AR bill, maybe not the way people want it to happen but it will help. 

In essence the AR bill will make it a one buck rule like you stated because how many people get a chance at more than one 2.5 year old? I think people will actually need to hunt to kill a buck vs killing the first deer that walks out in front of them.