Bad Genetics?

[stubborn1VT]

I wondered about this.  Had an adult doe in front of me at 45 yards during rifle season.  She was in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. 

I hear grunting and out comes a 70 lb spike with 3-4" antlers.  I seriously doubt he was 1.5 years old.  The only other explanation is that he is a big fawn with spikes.  Saw him two more times during the season, cruising with his nose to the ground.  

[E J]

4 minutes ago, chrisw said:

I'm not sure on the details, I heard he had a farm in Bath, NY. For science purposes they may have even microchipped the deer as a fawn to track it through its life cycle. Either way, what a legend Charlie Alsheimer was. I never met the man but felt like my friend died when I heard the news.

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I visited his place once and spent some time in the enclosure with him. He knew the deer in there like you know your dog. I tried to soak in as much info as I could from him. His writing is what made me really catch the deer hunting  bug as a young man.

[BizCT]

7 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

I wondered about this.  Had an adult doe in front of me at 45 yards during rifle season.  She was in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. 

I hear grunting and out comes a 70 lb spike with 3-4" antlers.  I seriously doubt he was 1.5 years old.  The only other explanation is that he is a big fawn with spikes.  Saw him two more times during the season, cruising with his nose to the ground.  

must have been a young (late born) 1.5. Like the one I pictured 

[chrisw]

I visited his place once and spent some time in the enclosure with him. He knew the deer in there like you know your dog. I tried to soak in as much info as I could from him. His writing is what made me really catch the deer hunting  bug as a young man.

Same here, I grew up reading his findings. You won the lottery in deer terms by spending some personal time with him. He was a man who seemed to truly love whitetails.

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[stubborn1VT]

1 minute ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

must have been a young (late born) 1.5. Like the one I pictured 

No way.  As someone wrote above, the late born fawns catch up just fine.  I have never shot a 1.5 year old buck that was less than 100 lbs.  I believe he was a big fawn, not a small 1.5.  Could be wrong, but he looked short and round to me.  

[NFA-ADK]

Genetics is one factor.  Food abundance, availability, richness (Nutrition) and longevity along with early spring and late winter, stress from food or lack of and predation including human intrusion also factor in.  

1) Genetics  (Personally I think most deer can grow decent racks if allowed to get to at least 3.5 with 5.5 preferred to maximize growth. Hard to do in NY but possible the problem is they get so smart at that point!)

2) Food Resources (If not enough food or good enough food value most nutrition will go to the body vs antler growth.)

3) Stress  (Stress from predation, lack of food and harsh winters will cause poor antler growth as they are more in survival mode.)

4) Winter  (Harsh winters stress deer out and slow the antler development due to late spring food.)

If I had to guess at what the biggest factor is I would say it is the soil!  2nd would be long winters.  Generally speaking good soil produces good food.  If you look at a map of NYS you will see some of the best soil also produces the best antlered deer.  The other factors also determine and affect antler growth but good soil produces good food which equals good antlers providing the other factors do not interfere. 

[NFA-ADK]

28 minutes ago, E J said:

I visited his place once and spent some time in the enclosure with him. He knew the deer in there like you know your dog. I tried to soak in as much info as I could from him. His writing is what made me really catch the deer hunting  bug as a young man.

Myself as well!  His book "A Guild To Adirondack Deer Hunting" was in our camp for years!  Still love reading that along with "Whitetail The Ultimate Challenge".  

Stubbon1VT  I would think it was probably a yearling, when they fatten up sometimes they look smaller than what they really are.  Short and round is a good description as fawns usually do not get that fat as they only had a few months to pack it on. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by NFA-ADK

[stubborn1VT]

Fawns look "round" because they have such a short frame.  I'm not buying this as a 1.5 year old whitetail.  It was basically a button buck that grew spikes.  I also had an adult doe in sight to compare him to, as well as several fawn sightings from the same stand for reference.  100lbs vs 70lbs vs 45lbs isn't that hard to determine.

[NFA-ADK]

Could just be a real early born buck like you stated, it happens.  Just seems strange to me that he is almost twice the size of other fawns you see. 

[LET EM GROW]

I would say that spike was born way early or way late. As for knowing what deer he is at 2.5 yrs old after being a spike the year prior, i'm not sure how you'd know who he is unless he had distinct body features you could follow him by. A spike can most certainly develop into a stud buck. no doubt about it. Your soil and available foods will play a role in how big a deer gets. As well as age.  Going into next year i would think he'll be close to where he should be for your average deer of his age class.. 

Spike can stay a spike the next year(rarely) or grow 4,6 or 8 pts or what not, you never know.

I do think your deer is an early born that grew slightly more than 'buttons". his body resembles a fawn more than it does a 1.5 yr old deer. a late born 1.5 yr old should be close to caught up per his age class as mentioned before, and shouldn't look like that regardless.. unless extreme malnourished( which he doesnt look to be)..  but im no biologist lol. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

17 hours ago, stubborn1VT said:

No way.  As someone wrote above, the late born fawns catch up just fine.  I have never shot a 1.5 year old buck that was less than 100 lbs.  I believe he was a big fawn, not a small 1.5.  Could be wrong, but he looked short and round to me.  

The nice thing about trying to sort that out would have been to look at the teeth. Beyond 2.5 it becomes subjective (wear estimates) unless the tooth is sent out but to differentiate between a fawn, 1.5 and 2.5/older in those three groups it is very objective based on what teeth are present. 

[WNY Bowhunter]

Good article...

http://www.iwla-rh.org/html/DGIF_articles/deer_antlers.html

[NYBowhunter]

I had a small spike (fawn) on my property this year and was followed by an even smaller female fawn, likely his sister as they were following each other around. I can say with upmost certainty he was a fawn with tiny spikes, not  1 1/2 YR. old. First male fawn ive ever  seen that had spikes.

[BizCT]

7 minutes ago, WNY Bowhunter said:

Good article...

http://www.iwla-rh.org/html/DGIF_articles/deer_antlers.html

Exactly. This gets back to the point:

"When a buck is 1-1/2 years of age and grows his first set of antlers"

Fawns don't grow antlers.

[johnplav]

Good nutrition can lead to early born fawns having "antlers".  These are normally very small, basically the size of normal buttons, but instead tiny spikes.  To grow anything more would be rare and odd. 

[Don_C]

17 minutes ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

Exactly. This gets back to the point:

"When a buck is 1-1/2 years of age and grows his first set of antlers"

Fawns don't grow antlers.

You can believe that based on an online article, but I saw one multiple times this year. He was also with a very tiny doe/sister.  He was a fawn, not a 1 1/2 year old deer, there was no mistaking it as an older deer. Rare and odd? Probably. Impossible? I say no.

[johnplav]

I went back and checked... in the past five years there were two buck fawns taken off our land.  Both were mistaken as does.  One had buttons, the other had small spikes. And this is an area with both good nutrition and genes.  I don't know about the one in your pic @Biz-R-OWorld... I'v never seen a fawn with antlers that size, but I guess it could be possible.  More than likely a lame little late born 1.5 spike.  Or a freak antlered doe??

Also, the deer I took a few weeks ago off state land had tiny little spikes, and I'm confident it was a fawn.  I wouldn't purposely target a buck fawn, but being at an unfamiliar spot, from the ground with a bow... any deer that gave me an opportunity was going in the freezer.  

Fun fact... I had such low expectations about even seeing anything that day, I didn't bring the trailer hitch rack.  So this little fella got double wrapped in tarps and ratchet straps Sopranos-stlye and thrown in the back of my SUV.  

 

[Don_C]

Opposite end of the spectrum... I also had an opportunity to shoot a really large buck in October that had a tiny rack. I couldn't figure it out as he walked by me at 22 yards I was drawn on him, but couldn't let the arrow fly. He was fat and swollen, his body was long, he was an older deer. His rack was about 8-9" wide and shaped like a full rack, with a few short points, but really really tiny. I let him walk...mostly out of confusion! 

[WNY Bowhunter]

Hard to tell from the overexposed pic that was posted...but, looks like the antlers may actually be in velvet still?

[WNYBuckHunter]

20 hours ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

I always heard it is not possible for fawn to have spikes. even in that rare circumstance, wouldn't it only happen in crazy superior genetics/habitat. I wonder if @Four Season Whitetail's even has fawns with spikes? i doubt it.

We get them out here. I had 3 different ones that were fawns with small spikes this season.

[NFA-ADK]

They can have small spikes as a fawn but I think it is unusual as most only have buttons.  I would think early born fawns with healthy mothers and good early spring food would be the most likely to develop these small spikes.  Not impossible by any means but rare I would think.   

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You really can't determine his genetic potential compared to the other too. I'd say he was a late born fawn with poor nutrition.  Out here in Region 8 I see lots of great yearlings...and lots of poor ones too. In years with a late spring greenup like the past two years...I see way more spikes as a result of the stress from the lack of spring nutrition. 

Spot On! You will never see a fawn in the wild born earlier then May and you will never see a wild buck Fawn at 6 months with 3-4 inch spikes. That buck was a late born Fawn the year prior with poor grub. A year and a half old buck with spikes will about always grow bigger as he matures. Genetics and Grub may show early signs but age is the bottom line to see true stat's. As far as Charles he was awesome at what he did and will go down in history with his studies and Pic's but they were still studied in a fenced in area with very little pressure. He kept it as wild as possible with making the deer live off the land inside the enclosed area so his studies do hold merit. That spike to 160 study could have shown spike to 200in if he had intervened with just high quality feed alone. Great Thread for sure Biz. I'm afraid though as the past has shown deer need a little of everything to grow to full potential and your area is lacking some of those. Genetics will be tough to show in your area. I could have a buck Fawn out of a 500in buck and a mom out of 500in parents top and bottom but if he does not get everything he needs he won't even reach 200in when mature.


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[moog5050]

1 hour ago, johnplav said:

I went back and checked... in the past five years there were two buck fawns taken off our land.  Both were mistaken as does.  One had buttons, the other had small spikes. And this is an area with both good nutrition and genes.  I don't know about the one in your pic @Biz-R-OWorld... I'v never seen a fawn with antlers that size, but I guess it could be possible.  More than likely a lame little late born 1.5 spike.  Or a freak antlered doe??

Also, the deer I took a few weeks ago off state land had tiny little spikes, and I'm confident it was a fawn.  I wouldn't purposely target a buck fawn, but being at an unfamiliar spot, from the ground with a bow... any deer that gave me an opportunity was going in the freezer.  

Fun fact... I had such low expectations about even seeing anything that day, I didn't bring the trailer hitch rack.  So this little fella got double wrapped in tarps and ratchet straps Sopranos-stlye and thrown in the back of my SUV.  

 

I used a body bag for my jeep this year.  Worked great.  Holds in all the blood and ticks!

Edited December 19, 2019 by moog5050

[BizCT]

Spot On! You will never see a fawn in the wild born earlier then May and you will never see a wild buck Fawn at 6 months with 3-4 inch spikes. That buck was a late born Fawn the year prior with poor grub. A year and a half old buck with spikes will about always grow bigger as he matures. Genetics and Grub may show early signs but age is the bottom line to see true stat's. As far as Charles he was awesome at what he did and will go down in history with his studies and Pic's but they were still studied in a fenced in area with very little pressure. He kept it as wild as possible with making the deer live off the land inside the enclosed area so his studies do hold merit. That spike to 160 study could have shown spike to 200in if he had intervened with just high quality feed alone. Great Thread for sure Biz. I'm afraid though as the past has shown deer need a little of everything to grow to full potential and your area is lacking some of those. Genetics will be tough to show in your area. I could have a buck Fawn out of a 500in buck and a mom out of 500in parents top and bottom but if he does not get everything he needs he won't even reach 200in when mature.


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Opposite end of the spectrum... I also had an opportunity to shoot a really large buck in October that had a tiny rack. I couldn't figure it out as he walked by me at 22 yards I was drawn on him, but couldn't let the arrow fly. He was fat and swollen, his body was long, he was an older deer. His rack was about 8-9" wide and shaped like a full rack, with a few short points, but really really tiny. I let him walk...mostly out of confusion! 

Agree on genetics. Both of these bucks were 4 pointers with 14-15” inside spreads and over 140lbs dressed. Both I assume to be 2.5’s.




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[moog5050]

11 minutes ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

 

 

 

 

Agree on genetics. Both of these bucks were 4 pointers with 14-15” inside spreads and over 140lbs dressed. Both I assume to be 2.5’s.




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Don't ignore environment.  No one in my family is large and I wrestled 145 as a sophomore in HS but was over 300lbs by college and 5" taller.  Eating like a pig and living in the gym for 4 years helped more than genetics (at least on the weight part).