30-06 or 308?

[Lawdwaz]

13 hours ago, steve863 said:

Making a "mess" of things all depends on where you hit the animal.  If you pass any bullet thru the ribcage there won't be much of a mess at all.  If you hit the front shoulders then you will have more of a mess and again it probably won't make much difference if you are shooting a 150 or 180 grain bullet out of something like a .308 or .30-06.  

 

 

Now why do you have to go around talking such truths? 

[Buckmaster7600]

I think it because I've seen it. It's purely anecdotal on my part, just an observation over time that's all. A lot of deer that I've seen shot and butchered it just always seemed like the deer that were the most messed up were shot by someone shooting 180gr from an '06. Nothing scientific about it. Just a personal opinion that 180gr on a 100# NYS doe is a bit much. Especially when they're shot more than once.
I agree with you that speed kills lol, but a 150gr 30 cal at 2,600 fps actually has less KE than 180gr 30 cal at 2,450 fps (2,250 vs. 2,400 ft-lbs). Please correct me if I'm wrong. If higher KE equals a bigger 'mess" than the 180gr would be more devastating.

Ke doesn’t cause more meat damage all things being equal. Velocity is the main culprit for “messy meat.” Due to the larger permanent and temporary wound channel. Ke just keeps the bullet going in the direction it started.


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[wolc123]

15 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Ke doesn’t cause more meat damage all things being equal. Velocity is the main culprit for “messy meat.” Due to the larger permanent and temporary wound channel. Ke just keeps the bullet going in the direction it started.


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That's the fact Jack, which is why the .243 is such a mess maker.  I had considered getting one but one bad experience with lost meat put me on a 30/30 instead as my primary Adirondack deer rifle.

Back, "sort of", on topic, the meat damage on the two whitetail bucks that I killed with my 30/06, using 150 gr Federal classic ammo, was minimal.  Just a little bit of rib meat on one that I stuck diagonally, thru the rib cage. A small amount of neck meat was lost on the one where I aced the Texas heart shot.

[Enigma]

27 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Ke doesn’t cause more meat damage all things being equal. Velocity is the main culprit for “messy meat.” Due to the larger permanent and temporary wound channel. Ke just keeps the bullet going in the direction it started.


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I don't agree but to each there own. Maybe we can both just agree that unpredictable things happen when lead and copper meet bone at a very high speed. Shoot what you want, however big small fast or slow. I just know what works for me. 

[Buckmaster7600]

That's the fact Jack, which is why the .243 is such a mess maker.  I had considered getting one but one bad experience with lost meat put me on a 30/30 instead as my primary Adirondack deer rifle.
Back, "sort of", on topic, the meat damage on the two whitetail bucks that I killed with my 30/06, using 150 gr Federal classic ammo, was minimal.  Just a little bit of rib meat on one that I stuck diagonally, thru the rib cage. A small amount of neck meat was lost on the one where I aced the Texas heart shot.

I learned long ago to try not to take advice from people who say “one bad experience” and “on the two” when giving advice.

Your completely contradicting yourself, 243 with a 100gn pill is traveling 2900 and change FPS and your 30-06 with your 150gn bullet is traveling at 2900 and change. So if velocity is the mess maker the 06 with a 150 is going to make more of a “mess” than a 243 giving it’s .06 larger diameter and the same velocities.




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[rob-c]

7 hours ago, Lawdwaz said:

But wait, are you calling it a "ladies" gun?!?!?!

 

Well technically it is, Weatherby Camilla . But the 7-08 is s great cartridge. 

[LET EM GROW]

Id go 30-06 if it were me, tad more ass and ammo is available most places even during pandemic.  308 ammo harder to find currently. 

[wolc123]

5 hours ago, LET EM GROW said:

Id go 30-06 if it were me, tad more ass and ammo is available most places even during pandemic.  308 ammo harder to find currently. 

Ammo availability might be better for the 30/06 right now, but the meat damage thing has me leaning towards the .308 if I had to pick between those two. That "tad more ass" from the 30/06 is going to wreck more meat.  

That said, when I bought my 30/06, 30 some years ago, I had only one hungry mouth to feed (myself), I was in my "trophy" stage, and meat damage was of lesser importance.  Unlike my most recent rifle purchase (30/30) which was the clear winner, over the .243 alternative that I considered, in terms of less meat damage.

Deer meat dont mean much to some folks apparently, especially those who have a strong preference for domesticated animals like chickens, pigs, and cattle.  I prefer wild game over any of that and I am thankful that the rest of my family does also.

 

 

[Buckmaster7600]

Ammo availability might be better for the 30/06 right now, but the meat damage thing has me leaning towards the .308 if I had to pick between those two. That "tad more ass" from the 30/06 is going to wreck more meat.  

That said, when I bought my 30/06, 30 some years ago, I had only one hungry mouth to feed (myself), I was in my "trophy" stage, and meat damage was of lesser importance.  Unlike my most recent rifle purchase (30/30) which was the clear winner, over the .243 alternative that I considered, in terms of less meat damage.

Deer meat dont mean much to some folks apparently, especially those who have a strong preference for domesticated animals like chickens, pigs, and cattle.  I prefer wild game over any of that and I am thankful that the rest of my family does also.

 

 

You’ve already bought it so I don’t see you changing your mind at this point but you’re completely overlooking the most important aspect of meat damage and that is the bullets construction. Lead ruins more meat than a monolithic. That’s been proven. I don’t really follow 30-30’s but is there a copper bullet commercially made for them? Lead partials from the bullet fragmentation damage a lot of meat because of their added wound channels.

 

The federal classic you used in your 30-06 is a notoriously hard bullet. Which would explain the minimal meat damage you’ve saw in your “experience.”

 

 

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[Moho81]

I have only taken 2 deer with my 30/06 (2 for 2) and the meat damage was nothing more or less than what I would have expected from any other round with the shot that I took. 1st one was quartering towards I hit her in the front shoulder and took out a piece of heart. Front shoulder had some meat loss but nothing crazy. 2nd was quartering away and I messed the shot up but got lucky. The bullet entered behind the arm pit traveled up through the neck shattering several vertebrae. The shoulder was mostly fine with little meat loss but 3/4 of the neck meat was lost. Again something I would expect with any bullet being used. That's with a 150 grain bullet as well. 

 

 

[Pygmy]

Using the same bullet  and loaded at similar velocities,  and with the same shot placement, saying that there is a difference in meat damage between the .308 and the 30-06 is splitting the TINIEST pf hairs....

Sure...If you reload and hotrod 150 grain Sierra spitzer  to  3000 FPS, and then compare it to the same bullet downloaded in a .308 to 2500 FPS, there will be a big difference....However  in factory loads, say the 06 at 2900 and the .308  at 2750...Not much difference....

[Dinsdale]

5 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

You’ve already bought it so I don’t see you changing your mind at this point but you’re completely overlooking the most important aspect of meat damage and that is the bullets construction. Lead ruins more meat than a monolithic. That’s been proven. I don’t really follow 30-30’s but is there a copper bullet commercially made for them? Lead partials from the bullet fragmentation damage a lot of meat because of their added wound channels.

 

The federal classic you used in your 30-06 is a notoriously hard bullet. Which would explain the minimal meat damage you’ve saw in your “experience.”

 

 

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You could argue this til blue in the face.

How many times do you see someone clawing open a box of ammo at a store and pontificates to his buddy that it 'sure looks like a good deer bullet' when its a varmint round with a really cool name and package.

Folks just look at the cheap price for their one box of deer bullets that will last 5 years cause they MAYBE sight one in shot a year.

Meanwhile the only connection between the hunter and game IS the bullet; and can be the cheapest form of insurance to actually killing a game animal effectively and cleanly.

Like you said a sample size of one is significant, and 2 is proof positive.

 

 

 

[Nytracker]

Huh 3 pages ... and nobody has brought up hydrostatic  shock..... wth....

[ncountry]

22 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Ke doesn’t cause more meat damage all things being equal. Velocity is the main culprit for “messy meat.” Due to the larger permanent and temporary wound channel. Ke just keeps the bullet going in the direction it started.


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True that.. That's why, I prefer a lighter for caliber bullet weight.  The extra KE usually just equals a faster bullet when it exits the other side of a deer all things being equal. I shot dozens of deer with my 308 . 125 gr Sierra Spitzer (relatively soft)Reloaded with 48 gr imr 4064 . This pushed a bullet somewhere around 3000fps with my barrel length.. If you hit a shoulder it was a mess. Either way, even if gut shot(for me a moving deer..lol) it was laying there within 50yds..A shot anywhere in the neck was instant death.(one of my favorite targets).

Anyways, back on topic. For whitetail 308.

Imo. unless you are planning on hunting bigger game(taking advantage of the 30 06 capacity to shoot a heavier bullet faster) there is very little difference.

 

[Modern hillbilly]

4 hours ago, Nytracker said:

Huh 3 pages ... and nobody has brought up hydrostatic  shock..... wth....

There's no point talking about an already highly misunderstood concept when people are arguing over terminal ballistics of a 30cal moving a few hundred fps different.

[Nytracker]

5 hours ago, Modern hillbilly said:

There's no point talking about an already highly misunderstood concept when people are arguing over terminal ballistics of a 30cal moving a few hundred fps different.

Lol your probably  right 

[Foggy Mountain]

Guys in all honesty any of the mid range calibers  have more similarities than major differences. The heads make a big difference though, more so than the caliber. This reminds me of guys disputing a .270/30-06. It’s pretty close to the same round too. Either will suit the op. Both are easily available except in extreme shortage cases than you’ll prob have trouble finding them both. The old wives tail in my opinion bout an 06 being available everywhere is nonsense anyhow. 
Chances of finding the exact load you’re sighted for on a hunt out west or something is prob near zero. 
Find a load you like, get a few boxes and have at it. You won’t be disadvantaged either way. Good luck with it
 

[Foggy Mountain]

Just got kicks out of Sierras load manual you can see both with 150 grain and 180 we’re talking real relatively similar. Nothing a deer will notice or a bear

[wolc123]

13 minutes ago, Foggy Mountain said:

Guys in all honesty any of the mid range calibers  have more similarities than major differences. The heads make a big difference though, more so than the caliber. This reminds me of guys disputing a .270/30-06. It’s pretty close to the same round too. Either will suit the op. Both are easily available except in extreme shortage cases than you’ll prob have trouble finding them both. The old wives tail in my opinion bout an 06 being available everywhere is nonsense anyhow. 
Chances of finding the exact load you’re sighted for on a hunt out west or something is prob near zero. 
Find a load you like, get a few boxes and have at it. You won’t be disadvantaged either way. Good luck with it
 

A couple weeks ago, when I was looking for 30/30 ammo, Runnings had plenty of .270 on the shelf but no .30/06 or .308.

They had recieved (3) boxes of 150 gr 30/30 that morning and I was "allowed" to purchase just one for  $ 25. They took down my name and birthdate to make sure I did not sneak back in and try to buy another box.  Election years suck for ammo purchasing, especially for the popular calibers.

[Foggy Mountain]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

A couple weeks ago, when I was looking for 30/30 ammo, Runnings had plenty of .270 on the shelf but no .30/06 or .308.

They had recieved (3) boxes of 150 gr 30/30 that morning and I was "allowed" to purchase just one for  $ 25. They took down my name and birthdate to make sure I did not sneak back in and try to buy another box.  Election years suck for ammo purchasing, especially for the popular calibers.

Wow crazy. Again that’s why I reload. Even during the Obama nonsense I was able to keep shooting and still the exact same loads. Yes you gotta buy primers and heads, shot and wadsbut I always buy in bulk. Cheaper anyhow. 

[dbHunterNY]

i've taken quite a few deer for here in NY given my situation. much more and it'd mean I'm hunting a southern state with much more liberal tag allocations and populations to support taking so many. taken most of my deer with '06 between the two. honestly i don't own a 308 right now because it does nothing an '06 can't. lighter rifle? you're splitting hairs that likely won't notice here in NY.  recoil for both seems very manageable to me, so much it's a moot point. 308 inherently more accurate? not from what i've seen that trumps the person behind the trigger or a plain great shooting rifle/ammo combo.  agree you could go after anything walking in north america with a sane mind, except for biggest few of bear species.

[dbHunterNY]

most recent gun purchase is a Browning 7-08 and it's a compact model sighted in with 120ish grain hornady reduced recoil loads. oh how i'm squirming by not sending some 150gr rounds down the tube and using it myself. still it does well on deer and serves the purpose i need it to right now. very light and accurate too. I'd use it on anything here in NY without hesitation. even if they made moose legal to hunt and a mythical mountain lion carrying big foot showed up. so i'd pick that over the others despite ammo harder to come by.

[Pygmy]

You could hunt coastal grizzlies or polar bears with either a .308 or a 30-06 with well constructed 180-200 grain bullets and not be poorly armed..Admittedly, there are better choices,  but many of the biggest brown, Kodiak and polar bears bears shot prior to the mid 1960's were cleanly killed with the 30-06...The ,308 was not so midstream back in those days, but with heavy bullets would do the job also..

On a caribou hunt in NWT 50 miles south of the Arctic Circle, my Inuit guide showed me a video on his camcorder of his 11 year old son shooting a 10 foot polar bear with a .222 Rem...I talked to another friend who did a polar bear hunt up there..He was carrying a .375 H&H, which he killed his bear with, but his Inuit guide was " backing him up" with a 22-250....

Edited September 29, 2020 by Pygmy

[Foggy Mountain]

9 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

most recent gun purchase is a Browning 7-08 and it's a compact model sighted in with 120ish grain hornady reduced recoil loads. oh how i'm squirming by not sending some 150gr rounds down the tube and using it myself. still it does well on deer and serves the purpose i need it to right now. very light and accurate too. I'd use it on anything here in NY without hesitation. even if they made moose legal to hunt and a mythical mountain lion carrying big foot showed up. so i'd pick that over the others despite ammo harder to come by.

.308 case, slightly smaller head. It’s actually a perfect round

[dbHunterNY]

10 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

You could hunt coastal grizzlies or polar bears with either a .308 or a 30-06 with well constructed 180-200 grain bullets and not be poorly armed..Admittedly, there are better choices,  but many of the biggest brown, Kodiak and polar bears bears shot prior to the mid 1960's were cleanly killed with the 30-06...The ,308 was not so midstream back in those days, but with heavy bullets would do the job also..

On a caribou hunt in NWT 50 miles south of the Arctic Circle, my Inuit guide showed me a video on his camcorder of his 11 year old son shooting a 10 foot polar bear with a .222 Rem...I talked to another friend who did a polar bear hunt up there..He was carrying a .375 H&H, which he killed his bear with, but his Inuit guide was " backing him up" with a 22-250....

if you can shoot it accurately... but still i don't want to be the story in camp of the guy that the bear made it to, took a few bites, and then died with a dead bear on top of me. lol